#72: Stefan Sandström - How to do Business in Japan

Do you want to reach out to Japanese companies and universities? Then you should know what makes Japan special and different to have a smooth business experience.

Different Cultures – Different Rules and Different ways to success

Japan is the second biggest market for pharmaceuticals globally. The area is not only interesting for its sales potential; it is also a major R&D hub in Asia.

One of the best experts in Japanese business culture in the LSG2G Community is Stefan Sandström.

Stefan Sandström is a serial entrepreneur who lived his first life in Sweden and is now living his second life in Japan. Instead of entrepreneurship, he's set up a business development consultancy in Japan aiming at the biopharma industry. After 15 years in Japan and partnering with Mr. Kuboniwa (retired from Chugai, chairman of the management committee of JBA, Japan Bioindustry Association, chairman of GTB, Greater Tokyo Bio community, and an advisor for the Japan Government), we always help find the best solutions in increasing traction or finding the right partners.

We are talking about:
➡️ Japanese Martial Arts
➡️  How is daily life in Japan
➡️  Japanese Meeting Culture
➡️ The Role of Informal Meetings and
➡️ How to Negotiate Prices in Japan

Do you want to get in touch:

⏩  Stefan Sandström: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stefan-sandstr%C3%B6m-22279053/
⏩  Manifestum AB: https://www.manifestum.com/iris-biotech-an-exemplary-performance-of-how-to-do-business-in-japan/

📝 Shownotes: tbd

🎙️ Youtube: https://youtu.be/B1HrE8XYmB4

🕒  Timestamps:
(00:00) Introduction
(02:00) Kick-Off and Greetings to Yokohama
(03:15) The Covid Situation in Japan January 2022
(05:13) Reasons to Move to Japan
(06:20) Kendo and Japanese Martial Arts
(08:12) Martial Arts and Business
(12:07) What Makes the Japanese Business Culture So Unique?
(18:55) Daily Life in Japan
(27:30) What are the 3 most important things everybody needs to know before traveling to Japan?
(30:50) How Important is it to build business relationships in Japan?
(32:40) Business Background Stefan Sandström
(35:53) What is the Right Way to Engage with Japanese Companies? – A Case Study
(41:45) Japanese Meeting Culture – What are the differences between formal and informal meetings?
(43:45) Mind not only what happens in meetings but also what doesn’t happen in meetings
(45:15) What does it mean when in subsequent meetings, similar questions are asked?
(48:17) How is it perceived to change meeting dates on short notice?
(51:55) How to set up informal  meetings in Japan
(58:50) How to Negotiate the Price in Japan
(01:01:00) What is the best first step in creating business relations with Japanese companies?

Podcast Links:
Podcast Website: https://www.lifescienceget2gether.com/
Podcast Community: https://lsg2g.substack.com/
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Transcript

00:00:00:05 - 00:00:11:16

Christian Soschner

Do you want to reach out to Japanese companies and universities? Then you must know what makes Japan special and different. To have a smooth business experience.

00:00:12:03 - 00:00:41:01

Stefan Sandström

You want to get to the stage where everything is set up perfectly. And so a lot of under handling or under the table discussions are needed. And we said there are three things that we require from our clients. We need them to have an ambition. That's number one. Two, they need to have a budget for entering Japan. And three, we need to agree on how to do this.

00:00:42:14 - 00:01:17:01

Christian Soschner

Different cultures means usually different rules, sets and different ways to success. Japan is the second biggest market for pharmaceuticals globally. The area is not only interesting for its AIDS potential, but it is also an important R&D hub in Asia. One of the best experts in Japanese business culture in the life sense gets together. Community is Stefan Sandstrom. Stefan is a serial entrepreneur who lived his first life in Sweden and is now living his second life in Japan.

00:01:17:03 - 00:01:44:22

Christian Soschner

He set up a business development consultancy in Japan, aiming at the biopharma industry. After 15 years in Japan and partnering with Mr. Caponera retired from Krueger, chairman of the Management Committee of Chiba, Japan Bio Industry Association, chairman of GDP, Greater Tokyo Bio community and an advisor for the Japan Government. He always helps finding the best solution in increasing traction or finding the right partners.

00:01:45:13 - 00:02:10:19

Christian Soschner

In this episode, we are talking about Japanese martial arts, how daily life is in Japan, Japanese meeting culture, the role of informal meetings and how to negotiate crisis in Japan. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Welcome to a new episode of Their Life Science Gets Together podcast today with our business friend and business partner from Japan.

00:02:10:19 - 00:02:21:14

Christian Soschner

And sorry for that. I have to show off my Starbucks Yokohama Yokohama cup to be a little bit stereotypical. I love Japan. Stefan, it's very good to see you. How are you doing?

00:02:22:12 - 00:02:36:18

Stefan Sandström

Oh, thank you very much. I'm fine, thank you. I'm life here in Japan. Of course, we have winter snow, but it's not like in my home country in the north of Sweden, where they've had almost -30 for a few days.

00:02:37:05 - 00:02:38:19

Christian Soschner

Minus, -30 degrees.

00:02:39:03 - 00:02:40:16

Stefan Sandström

It's I can do without.

00:02:42:07 - 00:02:44:04

Christian Soschner

How is how is the weather in Japan these days?

00:02:45:11 - 00:03:10:06

Stefan Sandström

We have around, I think, eight degrees today and rain. So not a very good day. But we've had up until today we've had beautiful days with full sunshine. And in Japan, they say that it's a good sign of the year. If you can see Mount Fuji on the 1st of January, that's kind of we saw Mount Fuji for the first five days of the new year.

00:03:10:06 - 00:03:17:04

Stefan Sandström

So we're hoping that this year will be better. COVID will dissipate. And we go back to some.

00:03:17:24 - 00:03:36:21

Christian Soschner

I believe in that. What I read in the newspapers with the Omicron variants, that it's less lethal. And a lot of experts like European Trust come up with their expectations that finally will we will reach an endemic stage. So I'm pretty positive from that that we can go back to normal, hopefully.

00:03:38:04 - 00:03:58:04

Stefan Sandström

At least some kind of normal. And I think personally, I will continue to wear a face mask. I mean, old people do it in Japan now, so it's in here. It doesn't have the stigma of being something that is oppressive or it forces you to do something. It's just something you do. Like you go out with an umbrella if it rains.

00:03:58:08 - 00:04:00:05

Stefan Sandström

I mean, it's nothing strange.

00:04:00:16 - 00:04:23:23

Christian Soschner

But sit down. That's a very good point. Let me just for the audience, introduce the topic of today's talk. It's business cut business culture, especially the similarities and differences between Japan and Europe and what you mentioned with the face masks. This was something I experienced on my first trip to Japan. It looked for me as a European and it looked quite funny.

00:04:23:23 - 00:04:56:13

Christian Soschner

So I asked my friends for 2000 something. Ask the French, why do people wear face masks? And they explained that when someone is sick with the flu, for example, and not a respiratory virus, it's pretty normal that when they leave cells which just cover their faces to not infect other people. And the good thing is with you that you live in Japan and experienced firsthand the culture in Japan, but also have a background in Europe.

00:04:56:13 - 00:05:14:07

Christian Soschner

You come from Sweden and also understand the European culture. So we have a great opportunity now today to discuss what Europeans should be aware of when they go to Japan. Let me ask you the first question. What was the reason for you as a European to move over to Japan?

00:05:15:12 - 00:05:47:23

Stefan Sandström

Yeah, so that was 15 years ago and I was invited to do a small kind of guest study at the University of in Kyushu University in Fukuoka Dome in the South of Japan. And I just stumbled over this fantastic business. WOMAN We have been inseparable ever since and are happily married. So that's how I came to Japan. That's why I stayed.

00:05:48:15 - 00:06:09:11

Stefan Sandström

I also do the martial art. Campbell, which is full contact for We hit each other with bamboo sticks. And if you do martial arts, of course, being in Japan is like being in heaven. So now those two things pulled me to Japan and I couldn't escape. I didn't want to escape.

00:06:10:05 - 00:06:16:16

Christian Soschner

Love is always a good reason to stay in a country and also to allow for martial arts. So I can confidently do that.

00:06:17:10 - 00:06:17:18

Stefan Sandström

Yeah.

00:06:17:24 - 00:06:21:24

Christian Soschner

How long are you training in Kendo for? When did you start?

00:06:22:16 - 00:06:45:03

Stefan Sandström

I started very late because I come from a small city up in the north of Sweden where kendo just didn't exist. I always wanted to do Campbell, but so I started when I was 28 and it was love at first practice. I never stopped practicing. Since then I've actually never felt that going to practice is boring. I never had to push myself.

00:06:45:10 - 00:06:59:24

Stefan Sandström

So it's obviously something that suits my temperament very much. And now in May of this year, I'm going to try for Black Belt of the Sixth Degree. So I'm.

00:07:00:09 - 00:07:07:23

Christian Soschner

Okay. That's pretty high. That's pretty high. But how many? How many? How many black birds are there?

00:07:07:23 - 00:07:09:14

Stefan Sandström

I don't. You mean levels?

00:07:09:21 - 00:07:14:20

Christian Soschner

Yeah, we are black. So. So you're sick? I think it's six down.

00:07:14:20 - 00:07:47:19

Stefan Sandström

Yeah. After that come seven. And that is as far as I will probably reach because eight is it's a very small amount of people that get that. It makes perfect. Campbell And it's like 20 people per year that can be and it's reversed, reserved for the professionals who practice kendo all their lives. And I'm not thinking that I will get to their level of expertise.

00:07:47:19 - 00:08:15:24

Christian Soschner

Let's talk a little bit. Let's stay a little bit with martial arts. I saw on television a repetition was years ago, before the pandemic. And in this movie slash reportage, the statement was made that many business people in Japan train in martial arts and especially in kendo. Is this still true today? And what is the reason why people do that?

00:08:15:24 - 00:08:48:06

Stefan Sandström

So the police, they do either kendo or judo because it they think it makes them better to deal with stressful situations, to have confidence that you have the right reactions and you don't need to be threatening. You can instead wait for the person who is deranged or deluded or not in his right mind. So police violence in Japan is actually extremely low.

00:08:49:00 - 00:09:17:24

Stefan Sandström

And if you compare to all other modern countries. So that is one of the official reasons why why the police do this at all. But I wouldn't say all but I think most of the bigger companies, they actually have a dojo and to practice cut up their hiking or judo and candle for their employees. I have also practiced to the Finance ministry.

00:09:17:24 - 00:09:29:13

Stefan Sandström

They have their own dojo. It's brilliant. So yeah, so you practice hard and then you drink beer. It's it's a different way of life.

00:09:30:02 - 00:09:45:06

Christian Soschner

I wish we had that in Europe. Did it get it right? All the big corporations in Japan have their own dojo set up with master teachers. We are. The employees can train in several different Japanese martial arts. Is that the right impression?

00:09:45:23 - 00:10:21:11

Stefan Sandström

I wouldn't say every every company. And I don't think that every company would offer every martial art that exists. But I know that very many companies do have candle dojos. So one of my teachers who came from Orix or credit Card Company, I am working with Jgc that is a Yokohama company within construction. They build things like nuclear power plants and they have a brilliant dojo, HHI.

00:10:21:17 - 00:10:50:19

Stefan Sandström

It's another construction company. They also have a big, huge dojo that we go to sometimes. And my own pride, I allow myself one ego pride in this life. And I'm one one of very few people who practice kendo with the Imperial Guards, the personal bodyguards of the Emperor of Japan. And I practice inside the palace in their dojo.

00:10:50:19 - 00:11:23:24

Stefan Sandström

It's a superbly beautiful old style school dojo called Chinachem. So exiting the palace through one of their gates and over a small bridge or Stonebridge, it's usually around lunchtime and often there are many tourists around. And they would say, Oh, we want and we want the guards stop them. No, you cannot enter. And they pointed at me. I said, But he could enter.

00:11:24:07 - 00:11:36:09

Stefan Sandström

They say things. Yeah, but he's the special guest and that is such a wonderful ego boost. But I, I don't want to spoil myself so my ego stops there.

00:11:36:20 - 00:12:11:13

Christian Soschner

I believe that. And on top of that, you have the honor to train in a very historic environment which is place, I think, an important role in Japanese culture. And this is I think, a great point to talk a little bit about the Japanese business culture in general. How do you perceive living in Japan as a businessman? What what's the specialty of the culture?

00:12:11:13 - 00:12:53:12

Stefan Sandström

I would say that it's it's a very honest kind of culture and your words matter and people are very honest and truthful and open. And we talk about talk a lot about respect. And when I meet people who want to know about Japan and I say, well, most societies have some kind of respect between people, but the Japanese have taken this to a whole new level and and you see that also in in business meetings and the way business is conducted.

00:12:53:12 - 00:13:23:01

Stefan Sandström

Of course, as always, nothing is 100% so I would say that is one of the things if we if we get to this point of similarities that I think if you if you know what is similar, you can come to Japan with confidence in those areas. And so you don't need to think about them. And that is that Japanese people are even more shy than European people in general.

00:13:23:01 - 00:13:49:14

Stefan Sandström

And I compared to Americans because they are the least five people in the world, and I think they are commendable for that. And one aspect of the American way of being is that they're very loud and Japanese people are the opposite of that. I would say that most Europeans are quiet and soft spoken. So that's also something that is very similar.

00:13:49:20 - 00:14:32:07

Stefan Sandström

We carry ourselves a little similarly, and one little negative aspect of similarity that I think is kind of funny is salesmanship in Japan and Europe, salesmanship is generally kind of small or low and leaves a lot to be lifted and improved compared again to the Americans. They are excellent salespeople generally, and so maybe one more thing. Have we have both Europeans and Japanese people.

00:14:32:07 - 00:15:05:13

Stefan Sandström

We come with pretty high levels of curiosity, education and money. It's not the poor parts of the world. So I would say those are some of the most striking similarities. It's very difficult to see the similarities because you're blind there, but yeah, I think about the differences more because they are more striking when you come here. I mean, you've seen trains are on time with just such a small, simple thing.

00:15:05:21 - 00:15:32:14

Stefan Sandström

Busses are on time. The timetables are adapted to the traffic situations which is something that at least in Sweden, the traffic companies or they are oblivious to these things. Well, it was jammed again at 5:00 in the afternoon. We never saw it coming. And next day, the same people and also the platforms are going to travel by train.

00:15:32:14 - 00:15:58:22

Stefan Sandström

The train stopped exactly in the right spot where you have markings on the floor where the doors will open. So you form lines waiting for the people to get off the train. They get off the train and don't disturb anyone and you get on the train. It's super smooth. And this thing too, people wait in perfect lines, but it's just for anything.

00:15:59:18 - 00:16:29:06

Stefan Sandström

A a. I think Swedish people are pretty good, but still we're messy and we tried to get ahead and but it's nothing like Japan. So there is this next level respectful behavior that that is the difference that you see it already when you arrive for the first time in Japan. You at the airport, how they give you the passport with two hands, how they just help you.

00:16:29:10 - 00:16:57:18

Stefan Sandström

You hardly even need to ask for help and they help you. So it's it's something that you need to be pretty socially unaware to not notice when you arrive here. And you will to also notice that the society is calm, quiet. You rarely hear mobile phones ringing. You rarely see anyone talking loudly, self-promoting their lives away from the phone.

00:16:58:17 - 00:17:12:24

Stefan Sandström

And actually, when you're on the bus, if you start talking on the phone, on the bus, the bus driver will stop the bus. So you have this immense social pressure to be quiet and silence and.

00:17:15:12 - 00:17:45:00

Christian Soschner

While you are speaking, I'm just walking from my first trips to Japan. And you're absolutely right. I mean, the minute I stepped off the airplane experienced a huge difference in how people behave. It's especially at at the customs when they're very politely asks you what's what's your business in Japan by coming here and stand over your passport and bow so to you.

00:17:45:10 - 00:18:09:24

Christian Soschner

And but they're the official. So it's very smooth and it's despite a lot of people live in Japan, it doesn't seem to me that they are in a huge hurry. So this this you call it, I think, Respectfulness of Friendliness in Japan. I saw a lot of people when I look in their eyes, they smile. So I believe they get a lot of training.

00:18:09:24 - 00:18:32:23

Christian Soschner

How to act properly in public. And also what you mentioned on on the train, I mean, here in in Europe, in Austria or Subway, for example, or busses, it's quite normal that you hear a lot of different ring tones, people having their phone calls, shouting and screaming and playing off emotion and on a train in Japan, it's a completely different setting.

00:18:33:16 - 00:18:52:08

Christian Soschner

On one end, early in the morning, people sleep, so it's really quiet on the train and when they want to communicate, even if in 15 years ago they used their mobile phones, so they were texting and not calling. And this takes so much pressure out of society. It's it's impressive.

00:18:53:04 - 00:19:27:15

Stefan Sandström

You know, and especially if you look at the Tokyo area and council area with Osaka, Kyoto called them. We are packed. There is not much space for every person. And I think that with the social pressure work, pressure and everything that you have, if you also had this onslaught of noises and sounds and irritations, it would be tougher to live in Japan.

00:19:28:20 - 00:19:53:11

Stefan Sandström

I sometimes joke and say that, you know, Swedish people, we are we have a big country and not many people, so we have lots of space. So if we took the 40 million people from metropolitan Tokyo and removed them and exchange them with the 10 million Swedish people that we have in Sweden, we would have only 25% the number of people.

00:19:53:21 - 00:20:20:07

Stefan Sandström

But I am sure it would be chaos. People will be angry, screaming. There would be traffic jams just because the roads are narrow, everything is narrow. And if you're used to big space, I mean that was the most difficult part for me in the beginning. There were so many people everywhere. I couldn't be alone by myself. Anywhere is just endlessly many people.

00:20:20:19 - 00:20:46:23

Stefan Sandström

So one coping mechanism that I found out was to be in the first and absolute forefront of the train and just look out on the tracks because there are no people there. Nothing, no cars, just tracks. It was the coldest place I could find. And of course, home. And after a while you learn to not look at all the people you kind of look down instead of just to survive.

00:20:46:23 - 00:20:52:17

Stefan Sandström

Because it sometimes feels as if your brain is going to melt just too many people.

00:20:53:04 - 00:21:19:17

Christian Soschner

That's absolutely true. But when I compare it with Vienna, I think I mean, it's not comparable with Tokyo in any case, because in Vienna we have 2 million inhabitants. And if you think with the commuters, we must be close to 2.5 million, but not more. And as you said, the area around Tokyo is 40 million inhabitants on a space that I don't know describing us, but I think it's it's like Central Europe.

00:21:19:17 - 00:21:59:04

Christian Soschner

So it's not very big and it's four or five times the the people there. But still I Vienna look to me more lively than Tokyo in a way that people expressed their emotions and expressed their feelings quite openly and had phone calls and ring tones and chatting loudly when I was walking through Tokyo. I mean, what impressed me was this silence on crowded streets and also with a lot of traffic.

00:21:59:10 - 00:22:07:07

Christian Soschner

And I think also the Japanese cars are built differently. Can you is it is it still the same or did it change over the last ten years?

00:22:07:07 - 00:22:35:06

Stefan Sandström

I don't think they built the castle built differently. But they are. I mean, they had the most modern car park in the world. You rarely see a car that is more than three years old. So of course, the more modern the car is, the more silent it is. Also now with hybrid cars that usually run on electricity in the cities, I mean, they are silent and quiet.

00:22:36:18 - 00:23:14:07

Stefan Sandström

And so, yeah, well, to some extent, of course, they have the local variety. Of course, I'm sure you can find some free or luxardo brands that you don't find anywhere else, places this very compact box like a car. I haven't seen them in Europe, but I'm not a car fanatic, so I don't know. Yeah, and for instance, IKEA, they have a lot of different furniture here than they have in Sweden because Japanese apartments, we cannot fit a huge sofa.

00:23:14:19 - 00:23:31:01

Stefan Sandström

We need to have a tiny sofa. And because Japanese people are smaller, they, they don't want to sit in a sofa that is very deep because then the legs would just be pointing straight out. So you have kind of miniature things I said to do.

00:23:31:02 - 00:23:46:01

Christian Soschner

I get the right impression. Is the European and American lifestyle creeping into Japan? What they always liked in Japan was sitting on the floor or kneeling on the floor. Is it still a habit or did it start to put chairs and sofas everywhere?

00:23:46:01 - 00:24:12:05

Stefan Sandström

Well, if you have both, I think Japan is has always been a melting pot and especially the metropolitan areas. If you go out in to outside of the bigger cities, it's like stepping back at least 50 or 100 years and so one of the first time for Japanese people and I have to admit that I liked it a lot, too.

00:24:12:06 - 00:24:38:13

Stefan Sandström

It's on the hot springs where you go and there you sit on the floor, you sleep on traditional futon that is just like sleeping on the floor. I mean, it's just hearts everywhere. When you wake up in the morning and with brilliant food and stuff. So some restaurants, they put you on the floor, some restaurants give you chairs.

00:24:38:13 - 00:25:08:06

Stefan Sandström

I mean, if you go to a French restaurant, you will have French style eating with French style tables and tablecloths. If you go to izakaya, which is the Japanese, I would call it a bar, maybe with a focus on drinking, but lots of little nibbles that you can order. I would say most of them you will sit on the floor, at least in some parts of the restaurant.

00:25:09:08 - 00:25:16:15

Stefan Sandström

Many restaurants have hole in the floor underneath the table. So it seems that people are sitting on the floor, but it's more kind to your knees.

00:25:18:01 - 00:25:52:21

Christian Soschner

It's true, especially for Europeans who are not used to kneeling on the floor. It takes some practice with martial arts, for example, and once you get used to that, I really loved it in one of the last podcast episodes with Pretty Nicely was having a conversation about health literacy. And I think still Japan has one of the highest life expectancies in the world and I believe lifestyle plays a major role in that, especially friendliness, kindness, respect for their behave on the street.

00:25:52:21 - 00:26:23:22

Christian Soschner

And while I was talking, it reminded me of my European rudeness when I traveled first to Japan. So this said it in the beginning, lining up in front of restaurants or shops. I was absolutely not used to that. So the first time in Japan when I tried to enter, I think it was an American donut donut bar, I saw this line, but I didn't think that this has a special reasons of people standing there for whatever reason.

00:26:23:22 - 00:26:44:16

Christian Soschner

And I walked straight in and the waiters and waitresses rushed at me and talking, talking in Japan, I didn't understand a single single syllable at night. Instead, what they want from me and tried to walk past them to my friends because they were sitting on a table behind them. And one of my friends still lives in Japan or different Japan.

00:26:44:16 - 00:27:14:08

Christian Soschner

And he got up and calmed the waitresses and waitress down and then explained to me in German that the next time when you do that, that you'll disrespects lining up and Japan will stop functioning because you bring a mess to the system. And it was a nice story. I mean, I think everybody who wants to go to Japan should get a little bit of training before to whereby it's coming across as a person.

00:27:14:14 - 00:27:31:04

Christian Soschner

Can you name that? The three major differences Europeans should be aware on the first trip to Japan what they should do to not come across like this roots and untrained barbarian I think actions the say in Japan.

00:27:32:05 - 00:28:09:24

Stefan Sandström

Yeah barbarian yeah it's very difficult. There are a number of things you need to sort of carry yourself without making noise and lots of movements can be as you explained all these, it's difficult to call them basic aspects of being respectful. But for instance, not knowing how the system works, it's, I mean, it's impossible. So I would say be quiet in trains and busses.

00:28:10:07 - 00:28:35:12

Stefan Sandström

That is so important. Even if you travel with your family, be quiet when you travel. And the third thing, which should I choose, is where I don't know, just too many things, but I will get to a small list of things with the later in the talk. So.

00:28:37:17 - 00:29:04:15

Stefan Sandström

So if we talk about selling or being in a negotiation, because that is also transferable to us society, don't push, just don't be pushy. You will not get the deal any faster if you push that in the West, you may get the deal faster if you push. And it's an accepted behavior in Japan, it's just plain rude. Now.

00:29:04:15 - 00:29:40:02

Stefan Sandström

And the other part of selling that is also very important in Japan is that all in all countries, you over sell a little bit to make your legacy more interesting. In Japan, that is almost a criminal offense because it means you're lying and they cannot trust you. So the Japanese standard is to undersell. So it's a very strange thing when you meet a salesperson for the first time, they show you this product and they say, Yeah, I should start with saying that this product is not as good as our competitors products.

00:29:40:12 - 00:30:11:07

Stefan Sandström

It costs more and has less functionality, but that would be a very ordinary, normal Japanese way of setting up the first sales meeting for a product and all the sales coaches outside of Japan, they would go crazy. It's like, No, you need to learn how to sell because you don't know how, but that's how it's done here and it's just a waiting for that.

00:30:11:09 - 00:30:39:22

Christian Soschner

That's still part of this, part of it, because it's important. And what I would call it, I would say that the maybe not so much European I think motivate the US lifestyle is more transactional. So you go in for one transaction and I perceive the Asian culture, especially the Japanese one is being more relational. So relationships matter the most and for example saving face and not being offensive, building relationships, getting to know people is a key point on setting.

00:30:39:22 - 00:30:53:12

Christian Soschner

So it takes a lot of time until the first closing, especially when it comes to to high value sales. It was the impression I got years ago. Is it still that way that in Japan relationships matter the most?

00:30:54:14 - 00:31:28:01

Stefan Sandström

Yes. Not that relationships matter the most, but you cannot do business before you know the company you're doing business with and it also has this very important part that you do business people do business with people, but they represent companies. So the relationships need to be in place first. So the simplified way of saying this is that in the West we get to the contract as soon as possible.

00:31:28:01 - 00:32:01:14

Stefan Sandström

We signed the contract and then we start finding a way to have a good relationship. It takes a while, but we will get there. In Japan, they don't do business until they have a good relationship, so it's basically the same time frame to have a good relationship to do business with in Japan as it is in the West, but it's a much more smooth, painless process because you ironed out all the differences before you start doing business.

00:32:02:02 - 00:32:33:13

Stefan Sandström

You get to know each other perfectly well and the products and the services, whatever, it is perfect. And of course I need to underline that this is for business to business relationships. When you sell to consumer, if you're working with consumer products, it has a very different set of rules, but you would probably want to have a distributor hand with a distributor, you would have to set up the business according.

00:32:33:13 - 00:32:40:03

Christian Soschner

Let's talk a little bit about your business background to just frame the part about the business, where you're coming from, why, what's your business?

00:32:41:04 - 00:33:14:00

Stefan Sandström

So my educational background is chemical Engineering and School of Medicine. I never worked in those disciplines. I worked as I say, I worked with leadership and business development mainly. I've been I'm an entrepreneur, so I set up a number of companies. I've also been CEO for a public Swedish company in the industrial area or heavy industries. So I have a little bit of mixed background.

00:33:14:07 - 00:33:43:18

Stefan Sandström

And here in Japan I after some trial and horror, came up with the understanding that it's easiest for me if I work with the pharmaceutical biopharma or that part of the industry because I'm struggling a little bit with the Japanese language. I don't have it on the level where I can sit and do negotiations on the business level.

00:33:44:01 - 00:34:30:19

Stefan Sandström

But in this industry, many people speak English, so it's not a bad handicap. And I also teamed up with Japanese people. So it kind of mitigates that issue. So we help with business development, mainly Japanese entities that I would call it Western or global companies or Western companies that have a Japanese branch office or something like that that have run into issues or they want to set up or they want to increase traction, or they have realized that their strategy isn't working, they need a better one.

00:34:31:11 - 00:34:58:12

Stefan Sandström

So with all those things, it's very good to have someone to look at your your situation with outsiders eyes. So we are those eyes. We lend to our clients, our collective business acumen. And since we've been doing this, my partner has been doing it for even longer than I am so that we can, with colleagues and say which ones we can help them out.

00:34:58:14 - 00:35:03:21

Stefan Sandström

And if if we cannot help you, we would show you to someone who we think could.

00:35:04:06 - 00:35:35:00

Christian Soschner

So would you do you have a case study that we can talk about to exemplify how that works to make, let's call it landfall in Japan? In my business environment, many people recognize that Japan is an interesting market. They said, just to give you a little bit of where the audience is coming from, probably or probably not, some travel to Japan and went to some conferences and tried to set up business relations.

00:35:35:10 - 00:35:54:12

Christian Soschner

But after six, seven or eight months, they came back very frustrated and said, okay, I mean, it's impossible as a non-Japanese person to set up business in Japan because they are actually not talking with you. What is the proper right way from your experience to engage with Japanese companies.

00:35:55:24 - 00:36:04:05

Stefan Sandström

Or the proper right way? You you need to have their fingerprints and the future in all the different relationships and.

00:36:05:00 - 00:36:13:12

Christian Soschner

It surprises you. They also speak German quite well. So Finnish kids and kung fu is what's the English term for that? Is it that this is.

00:36:13:12 - 00:36:47:20

Stefan Sandström

I don't know. I but I think that the German word is a perfect one because that's what you need to have. Every business meeting is different, has a different objective, has different stakeholders. So you need to look upon every meeting as being prepared. And you asked for a study, so I will give you one. So this company that I, that I work for, their name is Bio Forum.

00:36:48:00 - 00:37:22:05

Stefan Sandström

It's a British company. I help them in Japan. I've been helping them for two years now and I really enjoy working with them. They organized the bio industry, not like an industrial organization per se, but more like a membership community. And they organized the big players in the world and for five years in Japan, trying to sell and set up memberships without any kind of major success.

00:37:22:05 - 00:38:25:09

Stefan Sandström

I would say that they had some success, but not what they should have. So we sat down and talked and one of the things we found out after a while was that they didn't know the ecosystem well enough, so we studied the ecosystem for them. Help them understand why business isn't so self-evident here and we also decided that it would be very good to set up a strategic partnership with the JPA, which is Japan Bio Industry Association, and upon doing so use the GBA platform as a platform for conducting seminars on very, very interesting topics with the world leading subject matter experts from the leading companies as a way to show the Japanese industry how

00:38:25:09 - 00:39:00:06

Stefan Sandström

good we are. I say we know because I feel like I belong to this company of sorts for a long time. And also what they use is so I have managed now to get a number of new memberships here in Japan and I have, you know, it's more like the ketchup bottle effect where you start slowly the first memberships come like they are very almost like dear, carefully looking out from the forest.

00:39:00:23 - 00:39:31:20

Stefan Sandström

But I think that within this year or sometime early next year, we will see the ketchup bottle drop and all the memberships that should have been there already five years ago will be there. So that's what I'm looking for to create together with them. And this was not self evident to them. This was not even self evident to the JB They never worked with the company before and much less foreign companies.

00:39:32:00 - 00:39:58:07

Stefan Sandström

They only had members. So it took a lot of coaxing, it took a lot of meetings, so formal meetings and informal meetings and those are very important aspects of doing business in Japan. So so I think so the formal meetings in Japan, if you go to a business meeting, it's to establish common ground. This is what we agree upon.

00:39:58:07 - 00:40:28:05

Stefan Sandström

This is what we know and just make everybody smile in the meeting. Then you have the informal meetings. So if you don't know this, you will go to a formal meeting and you would think, Oh yeah, they're going to buy it, they're going to buy it, They are so positive. And then you get to the informal meeting at the restaurant in the evening and they will just tell it not we're not going to buy it because it's too expensive or we found a better vendor.

00:40:28:05 - 00:40:41:14

Stefan Sandström

So the informal meetings are for ironing out things to weather differences, to weather expectations that.

00:40:42:01 - 00:41:08:23

Christian Soschner

Can can can we stop a little bit here? Because I think it's important. So the impression I got of negotiating with Japanese people is that in this what you call official meetings, usually those meetings where many people attend. So you have sometimes all this lots of people that are not directly involved with this deal. And I think one specialty of Japanese culture is that they want to make the business partners look good in front of other people.

00:41:08:23 - 00:41:31:02

Christian Soschner

So be they. You called it to say a lot of positive words and a lot of calming words just for a reason, in our opinion, to to make sure that everybody looks good in the meeting. So this is just the way of Japanese politeness and these informal meetings, the impression I got was very often they are 1 to 1, one on one, so very small groups, or it's just face to face.

00:41:31:10 - 00:41:47:16

Christian Soschner

And in this meetings you can talk very directly with them and they appreciate that and openly, but it's a 1 to 1 setting. So when they criticize the don't do it in public or when they complain about topic I don't to public but to do it on bond and one did it get the right impression or to dismiss something.

00:41:48:07 - 00:42:15:12

Stefan Sandström

That is completely right and I could add a little bit of color to that painting I think because these formal meetings with many people, they do play a very central role in the Japanese way of doing business because there will not be a decision made until there is consensus within all the people who would possibly ever be involved in the project working with you.

00:42:16:03 - 00:42:40:15

Stefan Sandström

So they go to these meetings to listen to all the things that you agree on. And of course, they want you to look good because you look strange or you are noisy and problematic. In the meeting, some people would say, No, I will not give my consensus vote so easily. Okay, So yeah, so if you understand it from that context, it becomes much more clear.

00:42:40:16 - 00:42:51:19

Christian Soschner

I think so before attending meetings, it would be good to get some training in proper meeting behavior. I guess.

00:42:51:19 - 00:43:18:21

Stefan Sandström

Well, that's control yourself. But I think in order to navigate doing business in Japan, you either need to study hard and learn by yourself, which takes a couple of years, or you take someone by the hand, like a consultant or a local person that you want to hire or work with because you may want to set up a small sales office just with someone.

00:43:18:21 - 00:43:34:09

Stefan Sandström

So you need someone who can interpret what happens. And also this is a little abstract, but you need to interpret all of the things that do not happen in the meeting, which means you have to have a very clear understanding of what to expect or not to expect.

00:43:35:19 - 00:43:44:23

Christian Soschner

Was Part of what I do is can can name a few things of what's not happening in a meeting that's important. So the absence of something.

00:43:45:23 - 00:44:21:00

Stefan Sandström

Okay, so for instance, the absence of questions, it would show that they are not interested. The more interested they are, the more questions you would have and vice versa. If you are not interested in these people that you are meeting, you will not have many questions and I it kind of self-evident if you think of it that way, but I come from the Swedish culture where questions me is that maybe unprepared or maybe you're a little behind in the brain.

00:44:21:17 - 00:44:24:07

Stefan Sandström

So so this.

00:44:25:05 - 00:44:27:15

Christian Soschner

I never I never saw that but it's it's.

00:44:29:03 - 00:45:00:00

Stefan Sandström

Yeah but so we all come from different ways of seeing things but so asking questions for interest not asking questions doesn't show interest. And if you have commentary from the highest rank of officer of the of the opposing table, that is very good. If you have commentary, if it's only quiet, that doesn't need to be bad. But it's better if there is some commentary from from that person asking questions.

00:45:00:00 - 00:45:16:06

Christian Soschner

So we've got to be very meetings that it's a good thing when Japanese people ask questions. I think it's also true for the European or US parties to be prepared and to come up with questions should not just sit there and listen. Is it is it the right expectation or the right picture Regards?

00:45:16:24 - 00:45:42:17

Stefan Sandström

Yes. Yes. And also, one thing that will be a little confusing is that the next meeting you have, they will sometimes ask the same questions. And in the beginning, my mindset was that, okay, they didn't quite get the answers. So I changed the answer a little bit to get it from a different angle. And for Japanese people that's very confusing because that I'm saying a different thing.

00:45:42:17 - 00:45:48:01

Stefan Sandström

They just want to check that I say the same thing that they they want to hear exactly the same answer.

00:45:49:11 - 00:46:01:18

Christian Soschner

So is it is it is it a matter of trust? And that initially it is to try to establish trust, to find out, can can I trust to you say to say the same thing or to do a change of stories? That's a way we could see that.

00:46:02:13 - 00:46:11:22

Stefan Sandström

Yeah, definitely. If you stick to one story over and over again, they will it will inspire trust. Yes.

00:46:11:22 - 00:46:42:17

Christian Soschner

Which means a lot of preparation before the meeting. So to know what you want to say in this series of meetings and not change the story around, I mean, it's just, I think, to the European startup world. So that's quite common to change stories every couple of days and just think about negotiating, for example, with Japanese investors. It might be better to sit back, put out a story and then go out with a consistent story on the market rather than the story over recalls.

00:46:42:17 - 00:46:54:09

Christian Soschner

I mean, when two Japanese people invest, I guess they also take the time to talk to to look at the companies and evaluate the companies and build trust. So there should be one flow then. Is that the right picture?

00:46:55:12 - 00:47:28:04

Stefan Sandström

Yes, But also, I mean, change does happen and especially in startup companies, and you cannot hide that. But you should be more honest with the change, have to give the reasons for it. Since the previous meeting when we said this, this has changed because of something, something, something. So this is a new way. And if you do it that way, you remove the confusion, but you may move also backwards a little bit.

00:47:28:04 - 00:47:31:10

Stefan Sandström

So they need to see if this sticks in.

00:47:32:07 - 00:47:50:08

Christian Soschner

What what else is out? What you said before, the point of the absence of something. So one thing is a question, a good sign that the party is not interested. This when you just listen to the meetings and leave the room meant ask absolutely zero questions. What's another one?

00:47:50:08 - 00:48:14:07

Stefan Sandström

So as I said, if depending on the highest ranking ranking officer, he should have some commentary and like when you're leaving the room and thanking everyone, he should say something. That's a very positive sign. And if he doesn't, it's not to prosecute. Saying it, it can be. That is very basic. It needs to run to a different meeting.

00:48:14:13 - 00:48:20:03

Stefan Sandström

But usually it's good. It's bad if he doesn't let you ask him.

00:48:20:13 - 00:48:49:10

Christian Soschner

Let me ask you to just afford to put up in my mind. I mean, we are talking about business meetings. So meetings usually have a defined starting point and a defined end point. When I look to Europe, especially with the mobile culture, sometimes it feels to me that it became more and more practice to push starting points of meetings backwards.

00:48:49:10 - 00:49:17:11

Christian Soschner

So to come up 10 minutes before the meeting, that's one or the other. Participant may be too late for a meeting, so they will come in 1050 minutes later when the meeting already starts and sometimes people just run over time. How is that in Japan? Is it is it wise to try to stay on time So to arrive early, start the meeting at the right point in time and also ended at the right point in time?

00:49:17:11 - 00:49:20:01

Christian Soschner

How do Japanese people handle that? It's timing problems.

00:49:20:03 - 00:49:43:08

Stefan Sandström

Well, as I told you this, this is a respectful thing because you need to respect that. All the people participating, they have their own schedules that they need to adhere to. So it's disrespectful to not let them work on their schedules. It's very important to the to make sure that you start on time and on time. Everything is prepared.

00:49:43:08 - 00:50:11:03

Stefan Sandström

Nothing fails. I mean, sometimes, of course, with modern technology, the computer image doesn't present itself on the projector. It just happens. You need to reboot everything. Hopefully works. But especially the ending point is very important. You know, the Japanese meetings, when they want to stop, don't give an extra question or an extra comment because they will politely listen.

00:50:11:03 - 00:50:36:03

Stefan Sandström

And what you missed is the end part where you say goodbye to each other and thank each other for the meeting and and hope to get some kind of comments like or this is also where you pinpoint the person that you need to speak to at an informal meeting and say, I will contact you and they know exactly what it means and.

00:50:37:05 - 00:50:40:07

Christian Soschner

What what does it mean? What does it mean to say, I will contact you.

00:50:40:23 - 00:51:08:12

Stefan Sandström

That we will have an informal meeting? Mm hmm. Okay. And that's when you discuss the nitty gritty of the deal pushing forward that change requests negotiating an agreement that there is this one provision that we cannot agree on that you need to discuss it. And those are the things you do not do in the formal meetings, because the formal meetings are only for their ratings.

00:51:09:09 - 00:51:22:04

Stefan Sandström

And up until you can sign the contract, you need to have a lot of informal meetings with various people. And it's good if you have someone to guide you so that you get the informal meeting for the right person.

00:51:23:15 - 00:51:38:20

Christian Soschner

What what can we can we talk a little bit more about informal meetings? So you mentioned it. We have the first formal meeting and at the end of the meeting, Japanese people will say, I will contact you. So this is something that I can ask them.

00:51:38:24 - 00:51:40:24

Stefan Sandström

You are asked to contact the right. Okay.

00:51:42:04 - 00:51:56:11

Christian Soschner

Okay. So it's also polite to say, okay, let me follow up with you or contact you. And what this means I would invite then the Japanese person out for dinner or for for lunch. So it's an informal meeting. They're not they're not an official pre-COVID.

00:51:56:11 - 00:52:13:01

Stefan Sandström

It was like that you would go for drinks, but now it's usually some of these things. Matters can be conducted by email and sometimes you should use not your business email address, but your private team address.

00:52:13:05 - 00:52:14:11

Christian Soschner

Private, private email.

00:52:15:03 - 00:52:15:10

Stefan Sandström

Yeah.

00:52:15:20 - 00:52:24:04

Christian Soschner

This is a huge difference because they're always here in in Europe and also in the United States that it looks unprofessional to use private email address.

00:52:24:16 - 00:52:57:12

Stefan Sandström

Yeah, but for informal things it then it's off the record. Okay. In Japan you also have something called a smartphone email address and they are used less and less. But so everybody used to have at least two email addresses and so you set up this meeting. So pre-COVID, this is usually you go for drinks, a few beers or something disgusting for small restaurants to visit.

00:52:57:12 - 00:53:35:20

Stefan Sandström

But now you do it online. Usually for some of the topics can be fixed using emails. So and the good thing with the informal meeting is that it's a little bit like, I would guess if that's how spying works. You mean Putin cannot speak directly to the Prime minister of Sweden? He the meeting needs to be set up by other people who are lower on the scale.

00:53:35:20 - 00:54:01:22

Stefan Sandström

So and I think that this is the same thing in Japan that you need to just set things up so the boss, he gets something that is agreed with everybody and everything is fine. It's vetted, it's due diligence done, all the boxes, all the stamps, everything's complete, and then you present it to the director and he'll say, Have you thought this through?

00:54:01:23 - 00:54:24:22

Stefan Sandström

And the boss you have, he will say, Yes, okay, I approve it. It may take a month, but you want to get to the stage where everything is set up perfectly. And so a lot of under handling or under the table discussions are needed.

00:54:24:22 - 00:54:32:14

Christian Soschner

This it's a lot of politics and negotiation going on until people come to a deal. The signing the signing of a deal.

00:54:33:19 - 00:55:08:02

Stefan Sandström

Yeah I think that the politics so it's mainly inside of big corporations where you have political movements not in between companies, but you can get stuck in politics because you will have this. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And then finally it says no, because, you know, anything can happen and nothing is sure until the contract is signed. And actually not even them, but less, I'm sure.

00:55:09:06 - 00:55:36:05

Christian Soschner

And when it takes longer to sign a contract, I guess the failure rate after signing is probably lower than in the United States. Very complex. Makes my impression. Maybe my impression is wrong, but they always got the impression that the US people are very committed to signing and as you said, they negotiate the relationship afterwards after designing, which means that the rate of failure might be higher in US than in Japan.

00:55:36:05 - 00:55:38:12

Christian Soschner

Did you ever do some statistics on that?

00:55:38:24 - 00:56:11:00

Stefan Sandström

I have one interesting fact. It's not exact, but almost in in New York, Manhattan alone, you have more business lawyers than you have lawyer All of Japan is very out. And they're also Japanese contracts. They you know, usually in Europe we would have a clause that says in case we cannot agree, we will take this to some court or someone to make a decision for us.

00:56:11:24 - 00:56:51:09

Stefan Sandström

But in Japan, we don't do that only as a very last measure. If it's written in contracts that you need to solve issues amicably. And if you cannot do that, it means you're a very problematic person or you represent the company that nobody is going to want to work with. So there is this huge pressure to actually solve matters, to preserve the relationship and it's always easier when there is not money involved.

00:56:51:09 - 00:56:54:03

Stefan Sandström

But I would say.

00:56:54:21 - 00:57:27:10

Christian Soschner

That this negotiation with Japan, I mean, this is a big, big, huge is still a huge topic. Just reminded me of one story a friend of mine told me a couple of years ago where a European friend of him trading in martial arts and wanted to buy a Japanese sword. And this guy was from the Middle East. So in the Middle East, it's quite normal that when you want to buy something, you start negotiating the price and people are happy to do so.

00:57:27:10 - 00:57:57:08

Christian Soschner

And it's it's part of their culture. And this guy went into a Japanese sweatshop willing to buy a very expensive sword. And so that sort and price was fine for him. But due to his cultural backgrounds, he had the great idea to stop negotiating with the swordsman. If and as a result, the Sword Smith just canceled the negotiation and threw this guy out of the shop.

00:57:57:08 - 00:58:22:15

Christian Soschner

And so they never come back. So not literally, but figuratively, because he ended the negotiation and no deal was set in place. And ask my friend why? Why, why did that happen? I mean, it's not a bad thing to negotiate. And the answer I got was it's very impolite to just disrespect the price and express clearly that you believe the price of a sword is too high.

00:58:22:23 - 00:58:49:17

Christian Soschner

It's one of the most disrespectful things that you can do to a Japanese business owner to give him the impression in public that he's charging too much for something. Is this still a story that you see in Japan in negotiating that there are certain rules that people should be aware of when it comes to pricing, that they should not start negotiating the price of this fact.

00:58:50:14 - 00:59:52:08

Stefan Sandström

So the price in a shop is non-negotiable. And same thing with taxes, same thing with everything. But when it comes to business, to business negotiations, the price, the mean you set, the budget, etc. and even if the price is very difficult to change, you still there is some leeway so that the problems are in private settings. You cannot in business settings you can to some extent, but instance, if you want to buy ball bearings, say, and you want to slash the price 10%, you would be very much confusion because those 10% will be translated into kind of change of materials trying to decide not cutting off something because they at least they want to think

00:59:52:08 - 01:00:20:08

Stefan Sandström

that they set the prices extremely. And I would say it's to a very big extent that's completely true. And of course, sometimes prices are I mean, there are also Japanese companies that are opportunistic, but so price is a very sensitive thing to discuss in Japan and you should do it very carefully.

01:00:21:07 - 01:00:46:12

Christian Soschner

That's true, Stefan. I think we went for very interesting parts to get a better insight into Japanese culture. Maybe we should do another call to go into more detail, into more depth with that one hour that we want to talk. And I could ask more, more questions. It's very insightful to learn from you as you are living in Japan and know how things work.

01:00:47:03 - 01:01:04:20

Christian Soschner

Let me ask one final question. Let's assume a European company wants to make landfall in Japan. What is the first step that you recommend they should to to maximize the probability of success in their approach to Japan?

01:01:06:14 - 01:01:35:02

Stefan Sandström

I think if you look at this as a ladder on how to get from an idea, you started with the idea that Japan might be a good market for us, I think you should maybe first just dip your toes in Japan, go to a trade show, and at least visit something in Japan just to get the taste and the feeling.

01:01:36:12 - 01:02:08:22

Stefan Sandström

And then you should formulate some kind of entry strategy. I do recommend you do it with people who know a lot about Japan, because so many things will be different from what you're expected and used to the entry strategy. I usually think of it as first and for understanding the ecosystem that you want to be a part of the industrial organizations, the competitors, the partners, the distributors, all those things.

01:02:09:21 - 01:02:47:04

Stefan Sandström

And you need to have a very clear idea of who to work with. So you would have target lists for that. That's the entry strategy. When start working on the entry strategy. I mean, the pragmatic work to actually start conducting business in Japan, you need to have feet on the ground. There are many reasons for this one. One is that if if you don't exist in Japan with an office and things, you would be like a ghost which means they don't know if you exist or where you exist.

01:02:48:04 - 01:03:32:17

Stefan Sandström

So it's just what things are. So after that, you will need help to open the doors because LinkedIn is useless. You don't get any contacts that way. You need to either meet people that trade shows or seminars like that, or you need to do it the old fashioned way, meaning private or personal. Little personal invitations or recommendations by people and after that you will.

01:03:32:17 - 01:04:07:08

Stefan Sandström

You need someone to not only initialize but also strengths and maintain your your distance relationships here in Japan and say the last thing is that you can speed things up a lot by tapping into somebody else's business acumen. In Japan. And we said there are three things that we require from our clients. We need them to have an ambition that's number one to they need to have a budget for entering Japan.

01:04:08:01 - 01:04:22:06

Stefan Sandström

And three, we need to agree on how to do this so that there is a balance between ambition by budget times expectations. That long answer from your question, but I want to keep it a little relevant.

01:04:23:05 - 01:04:36:18

Christian Soschner

So the best recommendation is to contact you and to get some first, I would say some first hints on how to proceed in Japan. I mean.

01:04:36:24 - 01:05:01:08

Stefan Sandström

We welcome people to contact us. It doesn't cost anything to say hello. We're thinking about Japan. We have an issue with Japan and set up a meeting and discuss it. I mean, that's that's only good if we can be helpful. I think that one of the things that we are trying to do here is to help strengthening in the industry.

01:05:02:01 - 01:05:24:08

Stefan Sandström

And one of the most important things in doing that is to just be open to all the different kinds of talent shows. It can be companies, products, raw materials, just anything that slows between I'm sorry, the dog is very happy. Yes.

01:05:25:05 - 01:05:29:03

Christian Soschner

Looks like it looks like my stuff. I stuck with some toys.

01:05:30:01 - 01:05:36:23

Stefan Sandström

Yeah, but it's I would very much look forward to speak to you again.

01:05:37:10 - 01:05:57:15

Christian Soschner

And source of staff. And I would recommend to everybody who is interested from the audience to make central in Japan to reach out to you, but post your LinkedIn profile and your website in the description to the podcast. And I wish you, your wife and your dog and your team a great time in Japan. And let's catch up soon.

01:05:58:16 - 01:06:00:14

Stefan Sandström

Thank you very much. It great talking to you.

01:06:01:03 - 01:06:09:19

Christian Soschner

Thank you. Have a great day. Bye bye. Thanks for listening. Please please share the podcast and make sure you've subscribed. Have a great day.