#93: Thomas Schubert - The Role of Biophysics in Drug Development and Drug Discovery: What you Need to Know

What is the Role of Biophysics in Drug Development and Drug Discovery?

In this episode, I speak with Dr. Thomas Schubert, CEO of 2bind, a provider of biophysical outsourcing solutions for the pharmaceutical. Dr. Schubert discusses the role of biophysics in drug development and the importance of outsourcing in the pharmaceutical industry.

⭐ In this episode, we talk about:
The Role of Biophysics in Drug Development
The Role of Biophysics in Antibody Research
Success Stories in Biophysics
The Development of the Life Science Industry in Europe from the Biophysicist's Perspective
Future Trends in Drug Discovery and Drug Development

⭐ EPISODE Links:
Today’s speaker is Thomas Schubert, CEO of 2bind

Dr. Thomas Schubert received his Ph.D. in Biochemistry in 2012 from the University of Regensburg. Dr. Schubert joined 2bind in 2012 and was called for the CEO position in 2013. Dr. Schubert received the degree Betriebswirt (business economist) in 2014.

Youtube

📚 Book mentions in the episode:
The Power Law
Das Netzwerkunternehmen

📖 Memorable Quotes:
(04:30) “At 2bind, we are active with Webinars to educate people.”
(08:15) “Biophysics is using physical measurement and interpretation to understand Biology"
(24:40) “Many different changes in the environment of drug discovery occurred, and all of them pushed Biophysics.”
(52:30) “Always employ people that are better than you”
(01:29:27) “Biophysics will play a big role in Drug Discovery in 10 years”

⏰ Timestamps:
(00:00) Intro 
(02:00) Recap Bio Europe in Leipzig and Bio International in San Diego after the Pandemic Break
(04:15) Integrating Social Media into Business Strategies
(07:30) The Role of Biophysics in Drug Development
(11:00) Background Thomas Schubert and 2bind
(20:00) How has the Role of Biophysics in Drug Development evolved over the last 10 years
(26:30) The Role of Biophysics in Antibody Research & Development
(29:30) Biophysics and ADCs
(33:00) 2bind’s position in the pharmaceutical value chain
(38:30) How to combine scientific and development mindsets in the industry
(43:30) Competition and Expertise in the Biophysics World
(46:15) Technologies used in biophysical research projects
(52:19) Challenges for Entrepreneurs Running a Deep Tech Service Business
(56:30) Success Story #1: Lead Identification with 2bind
(58:30) Success Story #2: Formulation Study with an HIV Vaccine Candidate
(01:03:00) The Big Challenges for Pharma in this Century – Antibiotics, HIV, Cancer
(01:10:00) The Development of the Life Science Industry in Europe 
(01:17:00) Outsourcing – when is it the best solution for companies?
(01:24:00) Future Trends in Drug Discovery and Drug Development from the Biophysicist’s Perspective
(01:36:00) Epigenetics, AI, and Chess
(01:43:00) How to Connect with Thomas Schubert

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Transcript

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Christian Soschner 0:00

What is the role of biophysics in drug development and drug discovery?

Thomas Schubert 0:06

It's trees, it's it's light, it's nice, and then it's physics. But actually, it's it's a really cool combination because you use the physical um measurement, the physical interpretation to understand the biology. It's really fascinating.

Christian Soschner 0:25

In this episode, I speak with Dr. Thomas Schubert, who is CEO of Two Pint, a provider of biophysical outsourcing solutions for the pharmaceutical industry. Dr. Schubert discusses the role of biophysics in drug development and the importance of outsourcing in the pharmaceutical industry. Biophysics is that branch of knowledge that applies the principles of physics and chemistry and the methods of mathematical analysis and computer modeling to biological systems, with the ultimate goal of understanding at the fundamental level the structure, dynamics, interactions, and ultimately the function of biological systems. This knowledge can be used to design and develop new drugs that target specific molecules and biological processes, leading to improved treatments for various diseases. Dr. Thomas Schubert shares insights into the technologies and competition in the biophysics world and highlights some of Tubine's success stories in the field. Tune in to learn more about how biophysics is driving innovation in the pharmaceutical industry. I hope you enjoy the conversation the same way than I did. Thomas, it's very good to see you again after the bio. Yes, absolutely, Christian.

Thomas Schubert 1:49

It's my pleasure to be here. Um, really uh great opportunity, and uh yeah, nice to meet you as well. So as a person, it's really nice. It's already over a month ago, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Time flies. Time flies, it's amazing. Uh it's incredible. But it was a good conference, I think. Um was it for you? It was the first after 2019 in my life. How was it for you? Uh indeed, uh, it at least it was not the first uh after uh COVID uh for me. So I was already at other conferences, but not that size. And I uh I had uh a very good feeling uh that a lot of people were very kind of relieved to see people again and to interact and to to talk and uh just to chat, even uh just random without any scientific or or business-related topics, just have a nice chat. It was really amazing. I really enjoyed it.

Christian Soschner 2:42

I I couldn't agree more. It was my first bio after 2019. I think the other bios in Europe, bio Europe, so were pretty much virtual. And this year, the first one was in San Diego um in June, which was a little bit strange because the uh the airlines were not at the standards that I was used before the pandemic, which was quite funny. But I absolutely agree to what you said. Uh, it seems to me that uh everybody that I met is pretty happy that we have real life meetings back again. Yeah, uh it is like meeting old friends after three years. Yeah, and interestingly, uh I mean before the pandemic, I expected that this digital turn that we got in March 2020 will will just vanish and will just go away. And I was uh very, how should I say, uh, best uh pleasantly surprised that uh it doesn't change. So a lot of pharma companies, a lot of VCs have integrated now digital versions, like also this webinar, for example, into their processes. Uh, and I can highly recommend uh to use these new tools because people used it for scouting. What is your experience with with webinars?

Thomas Schubert 3:56

Uh absolutely. Um so I fully agree with you, Christian. So uh we are quite active here um also at Tubind uh for webinars indeed. So we've done quite a number of webinars with um partners um to you know show what we what we work on and to to you know to to also to educate people. Um because uh what what we realized a lot is that uh the way of how people um look for things, how they search for things in COVID has completely changed before, and I think it's now back again, but before you were meeting at a conference and you know had a handshake, a good laugh together, some maybe some beer or wine, and then things came along, right? And then suddenly this this hard hard stop was there, right? You couldn't meet anybody, and then uh everything was towards you know, Google, Yahoo, Bing, all those different things. And um uh so this was of course also a chance for such a uh company like us to to also use social media uh more and more. And um if you uh say that uh webinars is also social media, I would also say that we are very active here, yes.

Christian Soschner 5:07

In my life, everything is social media, I mean, right? So everything online is so just social media. Um I I agree because I mean before the pandemic, you always tried to integrate live streamings, webinars, video calls into my business life. Um, I love games, so I know these tools uh since the 90s and also did research with Harvard University of St. Gallen to find out how the internet will transform our businesses. But in the pharma industry, nobody used it. So every time when I said, let's do a webinar, they said, No, why not? Why? And now uh I the last time in the bio in uh in Leipzig, I asked people, okay, what what do you do when you want to reach out to a company um in the conference system? And the majority answered, when I find a company that I think is interesting, uh I go to Google search. Yeah, and I want to know more.

Thomas Schubert 5:57

So that's true, absolutely. So we we can see that on our um homepage as well, on the click rate and these kind of things. They dramatically increased in in COVID times, and um it's good because our homepage is also quite having a lot of content, and it's really educational. People can not just learn about us, but really about the topic biophysics here, and so people really use it to educate themselves, which we really enjoy, um, because that's also part of what we do.

Christian Soschner 6:26

So let's let's use this webinar to educate me. And uh let me let me ask the first stupid question. Whenever I think about drug development, uh what comes to my mind is chemistry, is biology, and every time when I think about, for example, Elon Musk with Tesla, you think about SpaceX, space travel in terms of physics. And when we first met, you explained to me that uh you use physics for drug development, and that was why physics? Why physics about drug development? Why don't why not chemistry?

Thomas Schubert 7:01

Yeah. No, I think um, first of all, I think it has to be seen as a global part or let's say a process where different scientific aspects come into line. And of course, chemistry is highly important, no doubt. Uh, this is the basis of a lot of things, but also indeed biophysics uh plays a big role in drug discovery. Um, so this is uh uh something that is even now uh let's say uh further pronounced. So the actually biophysics has gained quite some momentum, I would say. The importance is uh increasing for several reasons. And I mean, just to uh define that a little bit more, um, so biophysics is I I do understand that a lot of people feel comfortable when they uh read up the first part of this word, bio, it's all like comfortable, it's animals, it's trees, it's it's light, it's nice, and then it's physics. Uh but actually it's it's a really cool combination because you use the physical um measurement, the physical interpretation to understand the biology. It's it's really fascinating. So it's really sometimes when you are going really deep into uh detail of a molecular uh mechanism in a cell, you find it so fascinating. And then sometimes you think, wow, that's just a wonder here. Uh what are we living in? This is amazing. And so you use physical phenomena to understand uh what the biology does. Um, so that's biophysics. And um, as you might see, I'm a passionate biophysicist. Uh huh. Really the thing that I like in my life.

Christian Soschner 8:38

Yeah, but just let me just share the screen. Um it usually takes a little bit of time. I just opened, it just opened a few websites. There's also a biophysical society with good society, by the way.

Thomas Schubert 8:52

Yeah, what is the society all about? Um the biophysical society is basically um really um um consortium of of uh well-known biophysicists, um, giving the whole um area a certain structure. Um, obviously, there are experts all around the globe, and um this is a network of really um the best of the best of biophysics. And you can see here um it's uh actually a very important society. Um fantastic, very nice um uh meetings uh for specific biophysicists' um applications. And uh here on the left side you see already a big topic that has uh drawn a lot of attention is of course, as we all know, COVID-19. And um, so the fascination also from the biophysics perspective is of course here also uh shown um to understand how that really yeah terrible um virus is entering a cell, how the interaction of this virus with a cell is happening, how fast it is going on, how strong this interaction is. This is biophysics. You read out these factors, that's pure biophysics.

Christian Soschner 10:02

That's good, that's good to know. And this is more for the specialists and for the generalists who want to like uh to know uh a little bit about everything. Uh, there's also Wikipedia with a nice definition of uh biophysics and physics, the fundamental science on the right side.

Thomas Schubert 10:18

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um I mean we use physical methods, absolutely. We apply them for uh to understand biological processes. Yeah.

Christian Soschner 10:28

Thomas, let me ask you the second question. Uh, how did you find this passion? What is your background?

Thomas Schubert 10:35

Um, originally I'm a biochemist. I was trained as a biochemist some yeah, 15 years ago, I guess. Uh, and uh during that time um I got in touch with biophysics at a very specific um scientific topic. And uh I got simply fascinated by the fact that you can directly uh by looking at a small detail learn about a large process. So this is really something that that draw uh was drawing my attention. And uh I I was fascinated that you can apply um physical um readouts um to really understand a cell and an organism and so, or at least parts of an organism or parts of a cell, of course, uh it's an extremely large, complex system, a cell, but you see and you understand a certain aspect of it. And that was absolutely my fascination. And uh I got yeah, I got stuck to it at some point because I really like it.

Christian Soschner 11:30

So is physics a huge part in biochemistry, in the education at the university?

Thomas Schubert 11:36

Um, not really, I have to say. So there is, of course, physics because physics are important, um, but uh biochemistry, education, uh, and also, I mean, originally I was a biologist and made a PhD in biochemistry. I have to make it more correct, right? Because this is the real situation. And as a biologist, there were certain lessons in bio in physics, um, very low level. And of course, in uh in the education, uh, in a PhD, um, uh there's not a real lecture, let's call it. So you have to yeah, make your own efforts to uh learn about um different other life science uh aspects, such as physics. And um, yeah, I got quite um yeah, interested in these things, and uh it was a lot of uh of course asking uh colleagues and other experts and and get yeah, get information from those guys and they they taught me basically.

Christian Soschner 12:31

Yeah. So physics, biophysics basically, or physics is a small part of your education. How comes that you then decided right after the university um not to work in the industry or stay in academia, but found a company that uh revolves around the topic biophysics?

Thomas Schubert 12:54

I think first of all, indeed, there was a passion for biophysics, even though it was not a large part of my education, indeed. Um, but um it really fascinated me. Uh, and then in addition, there's a second fascination with it, which is actually kind of the entrepreneurship. So uh this idea to build up our own uh topic and to to uh yeah, to to make decisions which have a consequence, um positive or negative. Everything is kind of what you decided and you have to think about. And that followed my complete life. And I always, as soon as I had situations where I could build up something on my own, I did it, at least in a large small scale. And I thought, okay, I could go to um other companies. I had also, you know, uh already, I was quite far with some contracts, but then this chance came along uh to really build up a new company from the scratch uh as a startup, as a first employee. And and this was something honestly, I if I wouldn't have done that, then I would have always thought about why didn't you uh do that in the past? Why did you leave that chance? So I had to do it. And um I was and I'm absolutely happy about how how things go on.

Christian Soschner 14:11

How did you find the opportunity?

Thomas Schubert 14:14

Um honestly, I I guess sometimes in life it's it's a combination of being at the right spot at the right time. Um I had a um my PhD um supervisor uh is a very um open-minded person. Um, he's very into technologies, and um, during my PhD there were certain aspects about biophysics which we could not solve with conventional methods. And he found um some um person in the physics uh department at the LMU in Munich and Ludwig Maximilian uh university, and those guys uh were yeah designing a brand new technology. And a little bit for desperation, we just thought, okay, let's give it a try. And suddenly, two weeks later, we had indeed you know values and data which even made sense. Uh, it's not just random data, it really made sense, and this was quite fascinating. Uh, and we all were like thinking, wow, that is impressive. We wasted a lot of time before, and then within two weeks we had cool data that was cool. And here the the chance was growing. So basically, Tubind uh was a spin-off from the university here in Regensburg uh in combination with a company called Nanotamper Technologies. That's a company in Munich. It's um producer and developer of biophysical methods. And at that time, 2011, so more than 10 years now, um, I had the chance to be the first employee um and and getting uh promoted to BCEO quite um short after that. And I'm very happy that I did this, I have to say. And um yeah, it was a good chance. It was uh, of course, uh a wild drive, let's say, but uh it was really, really cool, I have to say. Yeah.

Christian Soschner 16:10

Yeah, before before we get into the the wild drive, I'm a little bit curious about the business model. So uh biophysics, it's uh not very, let's say it's not a huge part in at the university, I would say. And you found you started in a company as a first employee, got promoted to a CO quite after. And uh I'm just curious how how how challenging was it to find a business model? Is it uh your focus now in with your company with biophysics in drug development and drug discovery? Yeah, uh, how challenging was that to establish that on the market? Was it a no-brainer? Everybody knew, yeah, you need biophysics, so let's just uh work together with you, or was there some groundwork that needed to be done?

Thomas Schubert 18:34

Okay, yeah, so first of all, it was a challenge. I mean, biophysics at that time, so 10, 11 years, was even much more uh let's say, or let's let's let's say less important than today for several reasons. And in addition, there was, of course, already some competition in that market. And um the original idea of Tubind was actually um to be a service division for nano-temper technologies. That was basically at the very beginning the idea. Um really to have an entity that is using these devices to um also educate people and um you know show what these uh devices can do. Indeed, actually, this has changed. So in 2017, um we uh sat together and uh decided that Tubind is getting independent of nano temperature. So we're a completely independent entity now. And the main reason was that we wanted to um yeah, develop the company in a different way. We are in the moment, uh, or we wanted to become an expert niche player in biophysics. Um, we are working on a fee-for-service business model in the moment, also starting the first partnerships with interesting uh companies, or actually, these guys realized over the last 10 years that we have quite a some knowledge and quite some capabilities. And now people approach us also with partnership um um uh requests um to develop something together. Um, but our fundamental principle was to be a service provider, and this has actually a very simple reason we never had an investor. So, where to get money from customers you need to you need you need to get money in, right? Uh you want to develop the company and without having any investor in here, you you needed to have a business model where there's a fast um cash flow and where you can get money and and and develop a company. And that that was actually also a big part of the decision to use that kind of of yeah service business model. Yeah.

Christian Soschner 20:41

Yeah, the traditional business models that I learned at university and in a commercial school before was find customers first. And when you want to grow your business, then you talk to investors. This new world like we have now, where investors invest in startups without any business model was quite unusual in Europe, at least, uh in the 90s or in the 80s of last century. So it's a smart move basically to find customers. Let's get a little bit into investigative podcasting. You mentioned you mentioned uh there were for certain for several for certain reasons, biophysics was not so important 10 years ago, and uh it's its importance increased in drug development and drug discovery over the last 10 years. Why was it not important and why did uh the importance increase? Two questions.

Thomas Schubert 21:29

Yeah, um so first of all, one has to say that um the uh way of um developing drugs and discovery of drugs has been changed since the last years. Um so 10 years before, um a lot of the targets that were um out there and were worked on um were enzymatic targets, um, which had a clear activity that you can read out with biochemical approaches. A biochemical approach is different to a biophysical approach since you use an activity that the protein has to generate a signal that you can read out. The biophysics is more interested in the direct interaction rather than the activity. And so a lot of the efforts were done uh, first of all, on biochemical approaches. So HTS campaigns, meaning high throughput screening, was done on a complete different, let's say, platform, right? It's it is a different life uh science uh part. And biophysics was only this little tiny little piece when you had your compound and then you you saw an activity, and then it's just like this confirmation thing. Like, will you please confirm that this one thing is doing something? So it was a minor part, let's call. Of course, I'm a little bit over-exaggerating, but you know my but it's always quick for podcasts. Yeah, I mean, you you know, you have to make it a little like understandable. And fun, science can be fun as well. Yeah, of course, of course. And yeah, sure. I mean, biophysics also played a role in the past, but nowadays, um, it is, for example, the case that um um hard-to-drug targets uh in a cell, they don't cannot be read out with a with a biochemical approach. Um, there's no other way than a direct binding event. So you need, when you want to develop and discover a drug, you need to find a binder which binds to the protein or the RNA, whatever target you're interested in. And since there's no biochemical approach, you need biophysics. You need to see the interaction, you need to understand how fast this goes on and off, and what the affinity is of the two. And um, therefore, the attention that is now for biophysics has increased. And in addition, not just the target side. So it's not just new protein types and even a complete new field, the RNA as a target. So it's really going away from the protein towards an RNA as a direct target for a small molecule. For example, you want to establish a certain structure in an RNA or disrupt the structure. And as a consequence of that, the cell has, you know, is somehow modified, whatever aspect of a cell you want to modify. So this was not there 10 years before. This is a relatively new approach. And the complete approach is solely is the wrong word, but heavily depending on biophysical approaches. And so a complete new field emerged, even that was not present at 10 years. And then in addition, if you you always have two molecules for a drug development, the target and the drug. And before it was always like small molecules, some 300, 400, 400, 500 Dalton in size, had certain rules to fulfill. And basically, you were constantly screening things and uh making uh efforts if the cell is somehow affected. Nowadays, it's not just this one single um small molecule that is in focus. Now complete new entities come along. For example, protects, yeah. So this this uh new class of molecules um is has a complete different approach than a classical inhibitor. So it's not an inhibitor. So a protec is a combination of two small molecules which are linked with a linker, and the idea is to bring a protein of interest in a close proximity of an enzyme that tells the cell to degrade that protein. So the cell is told to get rid of this one specific protein. This complete concept was not present 10 years ago. And again, we're not talking about an activity. You need another readout, and binding is one of the uh interactions or one interaction is one of those things that you can read out with biophysics. So, a long story short, many different changes in the environment of drug discovery have come along in the last 10 years, and all of them kind of push biophysics. And that is the reason why now biophysics um as um the application, but also the outsourcing market is increasing constantly. And of course, um for us uh that is something very uh nice, and we were happy uh to realize that new entities come along, new targets, new things that we can address, and um that allowed us to build also our portfolio to serve the uh the customer in the best way.

Christian Soschner 26:32

That's that's great. That's great to hear that uh drug discovery is changing and it's uh getting, I think it's also getting more and more complex, isn't it?

Thomas Schubert 26:39

Oh yes, absolutely. So this classical paradigm, you have one protein, you you tackle that protein, everything is solved. No, no, no. So nowadays it's really a systematic approach. You need to consider a lot of more things. Honestly, the very low-hanging fruits are already gone. And now it's really there are absolutely fascinating uh concepts out there. Again, we're in a lucky position because uh, you know, uh sometimes, let's say when challenging things happen, uh, it is sometimes good to start with an outsourcing approach, giving an expert a first try and then integrating things into own labs. And therefore, we get in touch with a lot of state-of-the-art or really at-the-edge ideas, and that is what is really fun here. So we we are confronted with projects which are super innovative and super challenging, but that's the fun. Um that's really cool.

Christian Soschner 27:34

Uh is your position what what are you doing with antibodies? Is this also a part of of uh of of your of your business?

Thomas Schubert 27:42

Yeah, um so um let's let's make it a little bit uh different. So biophysics can serve to answer two types of questions. One type of question is related to the interaction of two molecules, A and B. So they they they bind, uh they bind fast and slow, or they bind strong, or they are two of these and just one of those, and so on. So it's binding parameters. First question. And the second question is um, for example, for antibodies, it's very relevant to stabilize an antibody. Uh, if if you imagine you have a drug uh and it's in a syringe and you want to push it into uh an arm of a patient to cure the patient, the antibody has to be very stable in there because the the vessel or the syringe or whatever, the solution has to be stored somewhere, four degrees or whatever, in a liquid formulation. And this is something that you can really nicely address with biophysics. So we serve not just those guys from the drug discovery um area with the interaction analysis type of things, but we also work a lot on antibodies and um you know um determine the optimal storage conditions of an antibody. Let's let's make it in simple words. A very important point as well, but very different. Because the one thing is very early, RD, super uh sometimes very okay. Uh wow, that is a cool concept. That's fascinating. Let's think about it first. And finding uh, you know, the formulation of a well-established antibody um which is already super characterized, it's a complete different aspect of what we do here.

Christian Soschner 29:29

So we can also uh add value to uh established technology that is already on the market, uh, make it better, improve it, uh, understand it better. Then uh so basically you you look in detail on how things work.

Thomas Schubert 29:43

Yeah, exactly. As I so as mentioned before, we use the physics phenomena to really check out what's the exact mechanism of something. And I think there are so many uh applications, and um, you know, we're so happy to be at that point because we so we made absolutely fascinating measurements in uh in for, for example, for in vitro diagnostic from guys, uh, where we uh helped to develop uh tests uh for um an allergen in in milk or an allergen uh uh in in in in uh apple juice or something. So this is really fascinating. This can also be solved with biophysics, so it's a very uh universal approach, actually. Biophysics.

Christian Soschner 30:30

One term came across my table in the last uh two to four years, it's uh ADCs, antibody drug conjugates. Does biophysics also play a role in that? Yeah, for sure. Well, which which role? So next question, which role?

Thomas Schubert 30:45

Yeah, and so I'm not satisfied with for sure. Uh for those guys uh who might not know ADC, so it's um uh basically the idea is that an antibody, which is um a molecule that uh can uh bind to a certain target structure, so it recognizes a certain structure, for example, on a cell, for example, on a cancer cell, let's call it. There's a cancer cell, and the surface on the cancer cell has certain structure, certain yeah, function, and an antibody is a binding molecule which recognizes um the um the um the cancer cell, for example, but discriminates native cell. And of course, the idea is if I add a payload to the antibody which is toxic, then I can uh toxidate uh the uh the unwanted cell in a cancer and leave uh the then the native uh environment uh untouched. So this is an ADC. And of course, this payload or warhead, a lot of people call this warhead, um has to be attached to uh the protein, so to the to the uh antibody via chemical linking. And of course, that chemical linking is a modification of the original protein, right? And again, you need to understand does that influence uh the antibody or not? Is it still uh doing what it should do? Is it still um binding to the target? Is it still you know stable? Does it uh fall apart? Is it is it suddenly uh does it tend to aggregate? Does it go out of the equation solution and is then of course not a drug anymore? These things we can also work on, yeah.

Christian Soschner 32:26

So we can really measure it and uh get more details on that. I mean, I find the concept very interesting. It always reminds me a little bit on uh about warfare, it's like an aircraft. So you put a payload missiles on an aircraft, and then you send the aircraft into the air, which basically in ABC terms is into the body. And they're always at a hard time to understand. I mean, how do you guarantee that the payload is released at the point of action where it's intended and not somewhere else in the body? How can you measure that? Yeah, uh, when it's in the biological system. We think it's easy in the lab, so to say, okay, this happens and that happens, but the body is different. Uh, how do you measure that in a body?

Thomas Schubert 33:05

Uh, first of all, uh, I'm not really familiar with the body. Okay. Uh that's maybe also something uh uh in general, the biophysics guys, they we don't really uh work with a living cell. Um we don't have that, we are completely in vitro guys. Um but I know that uh there are um uh phenotypic readouts where you can um realize if a cell is is reacting on that antibody, if it uh changes its uh shape, if it uh yeah suffers, and we can see that when a cell changes the shape or even dies. So you can see that. Uh honestly, how they measure this in in a living body, I have to admit, I have no clue.

Christian Soschner 33:49

So your work is uh is basically uh in vitro, so it's basically uh on the lab bench um before clinical development. Exactly, correct. Absolutely. Where is your company positioned in the value chain? Let's talk about uh your your organization.

Thomas Schubert 34:03

Um yeah, I mean, uh to mind uh of course, first of all, we are outsourcing uh partner, and and outsourcing can then be done at different positions of um the value chain. So it can be in the very early phases in uh classical drug discovery, for example, when you need a HIT identification, meaning you screen large libraries of compounds. We do have own libraries, we can also work with external libraries and identify potential um drug candidates. Then uh the next phase of the drug discovery uh phase is uh the validation of potential um uh hits um and uh drug candidates. So this could be that a customer has already done internal um HIT identification and then wants to get a third-party independent um answer. Is that a real hit or not? Is that a real binder or not? And of course, then um commonly uh these small molecules are optimized in um in the medicinal chemistry approach. So basically, you uh want to understand uh how uh the the structure of the complete uh protein with a with a small compound uh drug is, and then optimize that. And here, of course, again, biophysics is is relevant because we monitor the evolution of those compounds in terms of the binding uh to the target protein or RNA. So this is at the drug discovery level. So this is uh the first very early drug discovery RNA.

Christian Soschner 35:35

So so sorry to interrupt here. Um so basically you start with really basic research. So you are partner for the basic research organizations initially. Yes, correct. So it's a lot of universities basically, also basic research within pharma companies.

Thomas Schubert 35:52

Yeah, so I mean, I can maybe describe with some words our clients. Um, I think uh very obvious answer would be everybody that needs biophysics, but obviously not what you wanted to hear. Um, no, um, we are working largely with um biotech companies. We see backup biocompanies, biotech companies from uh US and also Europe. Um so these are our main uh business partners. We work also a lot with pharmaceutical companies um until uh since um 2011. We have now uh um a portfolio of customers, around about 450 customers, and we have worked on around about 1400 projects with them. So um in the last and years. Impressive. Yeah, um I think um it it's it's really uh a good track number. Yeah.

Christian Soschner 36:42

Do you you said there's an uptake in biophysics? Do you also see that uh in the numbers of projects that you get, that it's increasing for year by year?

Thomas Schubert 36:50

Yes, definitely. But I'm not sure if this has to do with uh increase of biophysics or because people now know us and realize that we have a certain competence. I think it's a mix of all those effects, but yes, uh constantly increasing. I mean, this of course, uh also on the uh key parameters on the financial uh basis is also you can see that yeah.

Christian Soschner 37:13

So we have uh drug discovery. What's what's another part in the value chain where you can assist?

Thomas Schubert 37:17

Yeah, so um basically uh the other part where where we can assist um is uh, for example, in antibodies in the antibody development part. Um it starts with a classical developability study. Um so the idea is an antibody is generated, it has an activity, it has a binding event, but this does not mean that this will be translated into a drug because certain physical properties are not good. Um, and a drug should have all optimal parameters. And here we uh offer services where people can um check their candidates for those parameters and then select uh the ones that have most promising parameters and get them into uh the later phases. So this is preclinic, let's say, um, in that area, a little bit earlier. And then, of course, an antibody, as I mentioned before, um, has to be at some point administered to a patient. And uh, before doing that, you need to have a proper um, you know, uh uh buffer condition, a proper storage, which is commonly called a formulation of an antibody. And here in this formulation development, we can also help with quite some nice tools that we have developed over the years. Yeah. So it's a very late stage um offer that we also have. So early, somewhere in the middle, and also late.

Christian Soschner 38:37

I was just smiling because you said uh ultimately the drug or the antibody should be administered in a patient that hopefully helped the patient. Uh I said it in my mind. But uh I completely agree with that statement in track development. So we need a patient. I'm not so sure in drug discovery or research organization. So very often I think it's more about finding something new.

Thomas Schubert 38:57

Yeah, absolutely. So that's a complete different concept. Yeah. It's finding something new versus you have something interesting and you want to optimize, yeah.

Christian Soschner 39:06

Which I find very interesting because, I mean, in my opinion, this is the one of the complexities in track development, that on one hand, um within a company, investors and and uh leadership need to work together with creative people like scientists who need to find something new. But on the other hand, you also have this project management approach where um leaders and investors need to focus the team on one single goal, which uh is a little bit contradicting in my my mind. So it's uh either you are creative or you are goal-oriented. How do you see it? Bring this all together.

Thomas Schubert 39:44

Yeah, so so I think I'm I'm with you uh on that point. So there is definitely something difficult around that. Um I would say. Um, I think in in general, um, this is a very big challenge for drug discovery, but also for late-stage projects, that um the tasks are so different, and also the people that that are working on these things um have different mindsets so um or should have, let's say. Um in in a very early uh drug discovery phase, you need to have a certain space of creativity because it's not everything, there's no SOP that you can follow, and then the standard operating protocol will tell you what the outcome is. This is not possible. You need to be open-minded. Of course, for VC backup companies, there's a certain core set where they can act for a different reason, strategic, budget, resources, and so on. And the creativity should not be limited too much by these external factors because you need that creativity. Whereas when you go for late-stage projects, uh it's more defined and still creativity is needed, but um a different type of creativity, I would say. So, yeah, I see where you go into. Uh, it's yeah.

Christian Soschner 41:09

No, for for me for me, it's very challenging to integrate uh different personalities into one value chain to move things forward. Because I mean, um creativity in later stages, uh, and just think you mentioned SARS-CoV-2, for example, um, mRNA in the beginning, when we were looking at this Institute of Biophysics, uh, 40,000 patient studies uh is a huge task. So being creative within a 40,000 patient study wouldn't produce any results that uh are useful to talk with the regulators then afterwards. On the other hand, when when we try, maybe we would try to put the core set around the researchers at the universities who need to identify new approaches, for example, new targets, uh new chemical, chemical comp chemical compounds, and uh just run them through SOPs and say, okay, you need to do this procedure every day. I don't I think it would suppress creativity.

Thomas Schubert 42:04

Absolutely, I fully agree. I think for the different positions, there are certain characters needed and certain people mindsets. And uh, as I mentioned, I think everything has a right to be there and uh has a has a reason to be a valid uh partner for these and these things. Absolutely.

Christian Soschner 42:23

How do you handle these challenges? Because I mean, on one hand, you're a partner to research organizations in the early stages, drug discovery, also on the drug development side. How do you handle these challenges within your company?

Thomas Schubert 42:33

Yeah, so first of all, um one has to definitely uh educate our project leaders, um, which are the first communication line on the scientific level to the partner that we have, and emphasize what the intention of the respective um uh colleagues from the other end are. And obviously, the intention of an early drug discovery guy is or person is different than uh late stage um development. And people have to understand um what the really need is. For us, honestly, this is a very important point already at the very early beginning of a discussion. So we really sit down together with a partner, with a client, a customer or a collaboration partner, and sit down and define what is the aim. So we need to know that. Uh, I know that a lot of uh other um you know CROs are not interested in that too much. Uh uh, I but I also know that um others also see as we do. We I think we need to know that, to understand what the need is of a late stage or an early drug discovery guy, to really understand what the focus of the project should be. And therefore, intense discussions are needed to get a sense what's the aim. And then you you are on one level, and then you understand, okay, this is the need, here we can serve and help.

Christian Soschner 44:02

Yeah, project management, I think it's very important, and also to to to get the the goals and the targets and the uh and the aim of a of a of a project out of people into a useful uh process at the end of the day. Yeah, we need to deal with results. Um the market is big. Uh we have 8 billion people on the market. Uh now let's continue with investigative podcasting. Why are you the best experts in biophysics?

Thomas Schubert 44:34

Oh, uh, so first of all, I think uh that there are others out there that which are good. So I I don't want to say something else because that's that would simply not be true. There are other companies out there and other groups which are doing an excellent job, no doubt. I think um our company, Tubind, is a little bit different for different reasons. Um, first of all, on the market, you will not find a company that is dedicated solely on that niche of biophysics. Um, this is our core expertise, and we're doing only biophysics. Um, biophysics and other competitors, let's say, it's it's uh a part of something. Most of them are one-stop shops. Again, I'm I think they do a good job, but it's a one-stop shop. It's a completely different uh concept. We are absolutely the opposite. We're not a one stop shop. You get biophysics here, and I think quite good biophysics. That's what we want to be. We want to be experts in what in this niche of biophysics. And so already at the at the description of how we see ourselves and others, there's a certain difference. Differentiation. And then there's of course how you can prove that you're an expert. And for example, one thing is for us, it's very important that we have technology partners. So we back up with technology partners. Nanotempa is one of them, Creeoptics now, Malvern is one, dynamic biosensors is one. And these guys, we are very close to them. And this means close means really that we are better testers. We get devices in here at Tubind, which are maybe not never reaching the market, or maybe they do. We are testing this. And it's a very fruitful give and take. We learn a lot about new technologies, about new approaches, hardware, software, but we also teach uh what the application in real life should look like. Because that's very often the thing that developers of a device are simply missing, the sense of why you want to do that. And so it's a very fruitful combination that we have with those guys. And therefore, we indeed have some tools here at Tubind, some of our 11 uh technologies in Tubind, um, they are customized. You cannot buy them on the market. And in addition, of course, because uh we get a lot of knowledge from the exchange with those partners, uh, which is of course not um accessible to um others out there. So I think this is a reason why we can at least to some extent say that we're experts, I guess.

Christian Soschner 47:12

No, I'm uh I'm curious. Uh I know we we didn't have prepared uh presentation, so it's a podcast, it's a conversational format, but you mentioned that in your company you offer 11 technologies to your customers. So which technologies are these?

Thomas Schubert 47:27

Yeah, okay. So first of all, um let's start with the technologies which look at proteins and how these technology uh how how proteins look like. So structure and uh not sorry, not structure, but uh molecular weight, size, all those different aspects, colloidal stability, chemical stability, as uh thermos stability. So this is uh the classical SEC mouths, um, this is dynamic light scattering, this is Panta, this is nano DSF. So these are the tools that we use to characterize proteins. Then on the side of uh basic equilibrium binding methods, we do have uh spectral shift, the brand new technology of nanotamper. We do have microscale themophrases in different variations. We have an automated, which is a HDS-capable device, which uh we have a Dianthus, which is even more HTS capable. On the kinetics level, um, we do have um a classical um characterization format for biologics, antibody antigen called biolayer interferometry, BLI. Um, we have a um very fascinating technology called um um uh wave delta. It's uh from QR optics, um, now Malvern. It's a great encoupled interferometry method um for kinetic studies, uh brilliant technology anyway. And uh the latest um technology that we also have integrated is uh the dynamic biosensors helix system, which is an awesome tool for ProTec determination, so ternary context formation is brilliant. And uh, of course, we also do have gold standard methods like isothermal titration colorometry in-house. So these are uh the technologies that we offer. I think, I hope I haven't mentioned all the level. Uh and of course, in addition to these methods, we of course need to have a certain equipment in the lab anyway. So pipetting robots, liquid handling stations, uh labside ecosystem, for example. We need to have them. Otherwise, we cannot uh you know create or or get all the capacities and capabilities out of the devices that we have.

Christian Soschner 49:31

So you know all your technologies by heart, basically.

Thomas Schubert 49:34

Yes, what I think an expert should do, yeah.

Christian Soschner 49:37

Yeah, absolutely. Uh so this means that uh anybody who wants to work with you is not uh only tape tapping into expertise, but also technology that in that form is not available on the market uh somewhere else. At least a parts in this combination.

Thomas Schubert 49:52

In this combination, I doubt that you will find another another company anyway. But um important for us is always that we um see ourselves uh not as a platform company. We do not want to be a platform, so uh a platform is a very efficient uh you know way to approach things. You have standardized, miniaturized, optimized processes, and it's very fast, efficient, and so on, but it's not flexible. And as I mentioned before, a lot of people come with brand new ideas to us, and we cannot work with a platform. It's like having a hammer, and then somebody's coming along with a short nail or a long nail and you drill it into the wood, but what happens? Exactly. It's a brilliant hammer, very erg, and it's it's it like it's really good in the hand, and you have a good tip, and it's a great hammer. But what happens if a screw comes along, right? What do you do? You need a screwdriver, and the hammer is not enough, and that is what we want to do. We want to have all the tools that we can uh grab into our box and take out the right tool for the question that a customer has. This is what we want to do, and this is where we are, I think, on a good track.

Christian Soschner 51:02

There was this, uh I don't know if you translated right, there's this proverb that uh to someone with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If I don't know if it's uh makes sense in English, uh just uh popped in my mind, popped up in my mind when you mentioned the hammer. Yeah, sorry. So you're you are not state way. So basically, you uh customize the solution to the needs of your customers. Absolutely.

Thomas Schubert 51:23

Uh I think that is a need because when you look at the variety of targets already just on the protein level, protein are so different to each other. If you compare uh soluble kinase to a membrane protein, they have basically nothing else than the amino acid sequence, and uh maybe in common. Anything else is different, and so you cannot use just the hammer. You need a screwdriver or you need something else. Um and you have to identify that you need the screwdriver in this moment, and for that protein, you need the hammer. That that is the idea of what we do, and that is also the reason why we have 11 technologies now in-house, and we're constantly screening uh the market for new things where we can add more uh information to what we do. Um, that's that's the complete idea of tool mind, being an expert. And consultation is a big part of what we do.

Christian Soschner 52:15

So it's basically very helpful for biotech companies who need the services from time to time, who need uh an up-to-date toolbox, but don't uh want to invest right away in building a team, buying the tools, and developing also the tools further.

Thomas Schubert 52:32

100% correct. Yes. And I think it's it's uh there are a lot of companies out there that are now well known, biotech companies, with great success. And uh most of them have indeed been at some point in contact with us. Um, we have uh a large portfolio and we identify tools which they might need also on a daily routine, and then we even support them in integrating these devices at home in their in-house processes. Um, this is part of how we see our function and and and job. We support them at any level, and um specifically for um early biophysics or not biophysic, but early uh biotech companies, this is of course um a great um possibility indeed.

Christian Soschner 53:16

Let's go back to the entrepreneurship challenges and successes and uh of your company. Uh what two successes and two challenges. What were your what were your two biggest challenges in the last 10 years that you solved as an entrepreneur?

Thomas Schubert 53:31

Um I think the the most challenge, the highest challenge was uh to get the right people into the company. Um, and I I keep it with uh the uh the sentence that I think G Steve Jobs uh has claimed. Uh, you should always uh employ people that are better than you. And I can uh proudly say that a lot of people are better than me, and know more and more experts, and uh I'm I'm listening and learning. Uh and I think that that is something uh that was very tough to achieve, to find um good people. Biophysics is not something that everybody, as we discussed in the very beginning, does from the beginning on in all education, it's something special, and to find educated people um that are good in what they do is tough. And I think that was one of the largest challenges. And of course, um uh other challenges is uh like uh of course, uh as an early employee and uh also a shareholder of the company, you always uh are like five steps ahead in your mind. Um but you know, in in a organic growth uh company, the steps are small, and you would like, you know, you get kind of oh, I I want to make the next two steps now, and I don't want to wait. And uh so it was also a little challenge to um yeah, how to say, um manage the expectation of of myself and also about uh some of the other guys here.

Christian Soschner 55:03

Yeah, walking the way, like this uh martial arts term. So martial artists talk about walking away, or Japanese people in general talking about walking away. And I I couldn't agree more to what you said. So the mind is always very quick uh with the solution, and then there is reality which moves a little bit slower.

Thomas Schubert 55:22

Absolutely, yes. And so many hurdles uh are jump suddenly out of the box. Suddenly there's a hurdle you have to string over. You never expected that this will happen, and uh of course that's that's entrepreneurship, but that's also the fun about it, right? Um, I think um being reactive and and and uh solve solutions or find solutions for problems, that's I think it's it's something that people that love entrepreneur also love. That's part of it.

Christian Soschner 55:49

And they also liked uh what you said about Steve Jobs that uh leaders should always find employees that are better than themselves. Yeah, it also reminded me of another proverb uh that was when you are the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room.

Thomas Schubert 56:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I I so I think it was Steve Steve Steve Jobs. Um I'm not underpursured, but I I really love that sentence. But the one that you just mentioned is also very good because it makes the same same uh consequence, basically. Surround yourself with um good minds and uh and learn and um yeah um just direct the ideas, uh don't you know don't interfere, but you know, manage and and and be uh uh yeah a good leader in this regard. Yeah.

Christian Soschner 56:35

No, I absolutely agree with I think it was also uh Steve Jobs definitely said something similarly. Uh I think so. But also I think uh I remember also Jack Welch from uh G, it was already in the 80s and 90s where he said uh also something similar that uh everybody on your team or on the on the leader's team must be better than the leader in one or another aspect. So if the leader is the best solution for everything, the leader is doing something wrong. Exactly.

Thomas Schubert 57:01

I fully agree. I couldn't agree more.

Christian Soschner 57:04

Now let's talk about success stories. Uh, what were your two biggest successes that you achieved for your customers?

Thomas Schubert 57:11

Okay, for the biggest success for our customers. Um uh okay, so um uh I have to think about what I am able to explain and what I'm able to display.

Christian Soschner 57:26

So non-confidential information or display, you mean uh do you want to have a presentation that you want to show?

Thomas Schubert 57:31

Um no, I I really think about uh confidentiality now. So um I think uh we know about several uh molecules that we have co-developed, or let's say no, co-developed would be too much, but we helped to develop them at some stage, which are now in clinics. Um, but I think one of the success stories that I have in mind uh was with a uh a company, um a biotech company, again, uh early stage VC backup company uh on the on the protein uh sorry, pro-tech um realm. And yeah, basically they didn't have um large capacities and knowledge in in biophysics, but they had really um a push from the VC to speed up and to give results and solutions. And the time frame was very limited, so there it was not much time to do. And uh it really started with a hit identification uh of uh so screening of several molecules, several hundred molecules for to identify a potential hit to the uh um protein of interest, and we managed to do that in an incredible fast time. Uh, we were really yeah, skeptical if we could make it until the deadline that we were past two. And um, so they were absolutely fascinated about this. Uh the VC was absolutely stunned, uh astonished about how we could manage to do that. And in the end, it turned out that uh the process or the project was even continued much longer for nearly half a year longer with Metcam optimization rounds with all you know necessary tools, and we always were um helping and could could could help here at in the end. Um, this molecule is now in phase two, and uh it's absolutely fun.

Christian Soschner 59:18

Congratulations. Congratulations.

Thomas Schubert 59:20

We are of course, our contribution was probably uh uh smaller, uh, but they these guys made an incredible job anyway. So they fully deserve their their success, and um, it's cool that we have been a part of that. Um, it was really nice.

Christian Soschner 59:36

Yeah, maybe we can talk about which company it was later in another episode.

Thomas Schubert 59:40

So uh uh okay, um another success story. I mean, one thing that we could that even people could look up on, maybe that's um uh an offer that I can can explain, is uh is a formulation study that we have done with an HIV vaccine candidate. So it's a rather internal project. So I'm happy to share a lot of information here. It's not super confidential anyway. So there's an application now that you could even download on our homepage anyway. Um, so it's a collaboration with uh the university clinics in Regensburg, the um group of Professor Wagner. He's an expert in HIV, studying that virus since many, many years and um doing a lot of effort in vaccination because obviously still there's not a good vaccine in the market that helps for that disease.

Christian Soschner 1:00:34

I'm I'm interested in your opinion. Sorry to interrupt you. Uh I mean, mRNA, for example, for solving SARS-CoV-2 was a pretty quick shot. So I know the development was large, much longer from the technology. It started in the 60s and it's not in one weekend. But basically, I think Moderna and BioNTech uh had in a few months a solution to a problem. Why is it so challenging to develop a vaccine against HIV?

Thomas Schubert 1:01:02

Um, I think they there are efforts. Uh and I'm I I don't know exactly how what the status in the moment is about mRNA vaccines, about uh HIV, but I I know about efforts that are done there. And I would not be wondering, uh I would not be uh you know um uh surprised that at some point there might be a success. The the missing uh piece of vaccination is simply because in the past there was the base the basis was always an envelope protein of the HIV, and here it's very challenging. So the approach was simply the maybe not the correct one, or let's correct I wouldn't say, but it's it's challenging. And now um honestly, with this revolution that we have seen uh with the mRNA uh vaccines, um, I I see a lot of doors opening up, and um as you're fully right. I mean, maybe mRNA is a solution of also for that. But I I would definitely recommend to talk to an expert in HIV for the yeah.

Christian Soschner 1:02:00

I was just curious, um it was not emphasizing mRNA the potential in HIV. I'm just curious because I think HIV now vaccine development is about 20 years, 20, 25 years, something like that. And we have not no vaccine yet.

Thomas Schubert 1:02:13

Yes, correct.

Christian Soschner 1:02:13

And the mRNA example I just brought up because we have a solution for SASCOV too. I mean, some people say it's it's not working well enough, some people say it's working better than expected, uh, some say it's okay. Uh, but we have a solution. And for HIV, I think we don't have a solution yet.

Thomas Schubert 1:02:29

Well, just interested in your opinion, why why why why it's so complex to find anything against uh I mean uh the reason why the the former vaccines um had troubles is of course because it it was really based on the protein itself. So um uh the and the envelope protein, it's a trimeric structure um which is then composing the the uh HIV virus, is of course um decorated with large glycan chains, so large sugars, which make them very hard to um tackle by the immune system. So this is why this guy is always escaping the um the immune system. Uh in the same moment, it's difficult because if it can escape the immune system, how can you then uh induce a certain vaccine reaction, right? So this is the challenge here at the point. So you would have to produce a certain protein that is so similar to the original um HIV uh envelope um yeah, complete structure. And here this is a challenge. So there are uh efforts based on uh broad neutralizing antibodies, which are very fascinating molecules because they are antibodies, but they have absolutely fascinating structures, very long, spiky things that really dig into this um forest of glycane chains and and reach the center of the protein or uh or reach the protein um surface. Absolutely fascinating molecules. But um I think there's a general topic about uh immunogenicity of this virus, again, without being an expert in this. But I I think you're right. Um uh it could be that we're talking about a problem which is maybe not even a problem anymore, because any uh a good maybe uh group in the in the world has already uh worked on the mRNA for for HIV. I'm not up to date on that.

Christian Soschner 1:04:19

Yeah, but I'm just coming, just coming from the financial point of view, so I have an economic background. I always think, I mean, if if we had the the same same dedication to cure all diseases in the world that we had for SARS-CoV-2 in the last two years, three years, I think many so would have solved many problems already. Maybe this is also a call to action for politicians uh to also look at other diseases because there are still unsolved problems that cause uh unnecessary suffering, in my opinion. We have great science, we have great scientists just with funding. Yeah.

Thomas Schubert 1:04:53

I mean, honestly, I think that's uh it. I mean, for example, if we are already on that interesting topic, I mean, um also antibiotics is a big topic that is difficult to solve by um the economy, uh, by the economy. So they are now the first um, you know, approaches where even countries uh make together some efforts to create new antibiotics. And the reason is that an antibiotic cannot be sold too often, and uh then it's financially not attractive to be developed. And uh this is simply a pain. Um, this is the origin is the basis of all what we do. It's um the capitalism, basically. Um, and here I think there are solutions. Uh and I think, as you you're right, there are some uh some diseases where I think uh a more official approach, not economic approach, but of let's say by funds or by by countries uh should come into game and and help to to fight against these things. Because for some of those things, again the approach via the open market might not be the right one. Yeah. Difficult topic, but um, I'm not sure if I'm right here again.

Christian Soschner 1:06:08

There's topic. Let's go back uh before we come to drug development, uh, to the formulation development. I interrupted you with uh with my question about uh HIV. Uh what is the role of biophysics in developing formulations for HIV vaccines?

Thomas Schubert 1:06:21

Yeah, um so uh what we have achieved here was um basically to stabilize the um protein which is called BG505 SOSIP. It's uh is a stabilized HIV um envelope protein um designed by different innovative groups in the world academic origin. And Ralf Wagner was also part of that development um as one of the consortium partners together with nano temper technologies and us. And um, we basically found um conditions where the uh the protein is highly stable, where the protein um is not falling out of solution, where the protein is uh not aggregating, where it's stable over a certain period of time, and really can um uh now be uh used in that buffer system. So you can imagine it's a protein that is uh swimming in a soup, and the soup has to be uh with a certain combination of ingredients. If it's too much acid in there, for example, uh then the protein will not be happy and will not be uh good to will already be destroyed once you reach uh the arm of an up of a patient or whatever how you inject it. And you have to have a certain salt, for example, a grain of salt here, and uh you know, things here, and you have to combine that to find the right. Soup uh and the soup is then uh supporting uh the the protein which is uh swimming in there, let's say, and the soup is called formulation basically. So the formulation is a very important aspect about um how to to use uh such a vaccine candidate. And we did a lot of tests, for example, for stress testing. Um, does it survive um certain stress situations? You can imagine the vaccine candidate is uh simply not kept in the in a in a cold chain. So somebody forgot to give it back to four degrees. It it's there on the on the bench table uh for a day. What happened? Can I still apply it? Is it still valid, or should I discard it? What do I what should I do? And we can tell, okay, by checking different physical parameters, the protein has survived this. It's no problem, you can still use it. And these kinds of things we have done, and we came to a really nice um formulation. And uh, I'm also not absolutely updated on the local at the current status of the project, but I know that the plan was to bring it into the first animal study. Cool. Based on that formulation. So it's really cool, and we were very, very fascinated to be helpful in that regard of bringing uh HIV candidate really into um the first animal study. Uh and uh yeah, um really cool story, I think.

Christian Soschner 1:09:08

So you can take an existing formulation and make it better, basically understand it, understand it more, uh, and uh help improving the end result. Correct, absolutely whatever the goals of your customers are. So it's uh flexive, it's flexible. It's not it's not a one-goal company, so basically you ask for the goals from your customers and then help them to achieve their goals with uh physics. Correct, that's correct, and that's just I was just smiling before because you said uh the soup, it's a formulation is called soup. So, can I is it is it a technical term? Can I use it next time?

Thomas Schubert 1:09:45

No, please don't use it. It just came into my mind to make it more digestible, yeah.

Christian Soschner 1:09:50

Yeah, no, yeah, I like it. But the next time when I talk with a scientist, they will say, Well, which soup are you cooking here? And I will call you out. So god. I learned it from Dr. Schubert.

Thomas Schubert 1:10:03

Oh god.

Christian Soschner 1:10:05

No, it's really just uh a fun thing, but it was just digesting better. But but soup is really interesting. For relations, yeah. I will uh I mean I will use it, I will use it. It's funny, it's funny. And uh we should make more fun in the world, but better, I guess. So we should have more fun in generally speaking. Absolutely. The Protoc project, uh, HIV development, and um, you said you started your company in 2011.

Thomas Schubert 1:10:30

Yeah.

Christian Soschner 1:10:31

Um, I'm now in the life science industry, farm industry since 2006. My first uh attempt to help scientists moving their science forward was also in antibiotics, it was in Ovati Spin Out.

Thomas Schubert 1:10:42

Okay, cool.

Christian Soschner 1:10:43

Um, it was a company called Nabriva, the department, uh Rodger Novak with the department, who later founded FRISPO therapeutics with Emmanuel Charpentier in uh Switzerland. They uh a lot happened in Vienna, but uh ultimately, and this is the point of the next uh row of questions. The scientists leave Europe for the United States because there is just more funding on the market than we have in Europe, which is a big downside. I had recently on my podcast, Sebastian Malapy, to have his look here. Big shout out if you want to understand venture capital, the power law. Uh, he researched all the backstories to the development of venture capital, and uh, a huge part of this book is uh the Genentech case, which is pretty interesting. Uh, bottom line is we don't have much venture capital here in Europe. And when I started in the life science industry, I had really the advantage to work with a great company with a great spin-out with great scientists. Um, but there was almost no zero landscape on the market. So in 2006, we had to build a lot. So we we also had uh animal facilities for a small scale, even it was 60 scientists in a company with owned animal facilities, which nowadays is out of scope for any VC. So they just say, okay, use the zero. Um I know how I experienced the development of the life science industry in 2006. Um, I'm curious to hear your perception from 2012 or even earlier. How do you see the development of the life science industry in Europe in the last years?

Thomas Schubert 1:12:19

Yeah, um, so first of all, I agree. Uh a lot of um I the good ideas um are unfortunately leaving Europe. Unfortunately, also uh dramatically leaving uh Germany and Austria, uh, as you mentioned in Vienna. It's a great hub, uh, Munich as well. And a lot of companies or a lot of ideas have left. Um this is a real pity because the idea is not the product in the end, and uh the what you in the end get back uh is not in uh the place where the idea was thought of, and this should be changed. Uh and one of the big, big reasons, uh as you described, is uh the money landscape, the VC landscape in the US. Uh since I I was in in, you know, I'm also part of Bio Deutschland, uh, which is a um a union of biotechnology companies in in Germany. And since I'm there, I know that these guys made a lot of effort um and um you know talked to um um politicians to uh to to let them understand what the problem is and uh how much much uh yeah taxes they leave uh simply because they do not make an attractive situation for an investor in Europe. And this has taken a lot of effort of what they do, and uh I know uh there's slowly uh things are changing, and at least we see that in Europe um uh a lot of, or not a lot of, but uh they are um now getting more and more interesting companies, um also interesting funding, maybe still not as that level as in the US, but at least more as expected. Um of course, in the moment, I think we have uh a special situation with um the COVID situation where a lot of money is pumped into general every market, uh, with the consequence that uh a lot of or some money was probably not uh placed at the right spot uh with the right idea, uh, which we now face as a natural correction of that phenomena. Then we have a terrible war going on in Ukraine, uh, also affecting the complete economy and also affecting, of course, VC funding landscape. Um, but at least from our perspective, um, is that uh we see that uh VCs uh may have more or may take it more serious to select the right topic and the right um project. If you look up uh the latest um series A, series B, series C, um uh which circle around, uh, there's still money in the market. But you see first signs that people take it a little bit more serious um in which type of effort they invest. For us as an outsourcing partner, uh the landscape is a little bit different because obviously, in this difficult situation, let's say, uh a variable cost factor, uh outsourcing, is sometimes in favor for an internal fixed cost factor. And people um then would either postpone internal investment or even you know don't take the investment at all and favor outsourcing. So this is our situation. It's a little bit different to the classical in the moment VC situation. For us, the situation in my eyes, it would kind of balance out. So, in the end, my personal opinion, right? Again, my personal opinion uh is that if even the market has overall a little bit less money, uh, the outsourcing is still increasing and that levels out for us. So, this is how I expect it. And I think I have um done a lot of uh conversation with other CROs, uh, from medicinal chemists uh to mass spectroscopy guys to NMR guys and so on and on in Europe and US. And uh basically the information and and and the opinions are more or less the same with smaller modifications. So in general, there's a trend for outsourcing, um, which is clearly seen since the last 10 years. Reasons one is specifically now for biophysics and also for sure for other speciality niche uh areas is the lack of skilled people. So um for a biotech company, it might simply be difficult to find the right people and to yeah, even keep them for longer period of time. Yeah, you don't need a person which is off after two years. You need uh somebody that is constantly for a long-term period with you and supports the company. This is one big challenge why outsourcing to expert groups, I think, is um in favor in the moment. And of course, also the investment into the um uh machines into um the complete processes. Um sometimes it's clear that the investment into other areas is simply more interesting, and therefore outsourcing um is in favor in the moment, definitely. You can see the market reports um talking about seven, seven, uh, seven uh or several um increase in in market expansion every year. I'm not sure, I think it was five or six percent per year. So it's the complete market is growing dramatically for outsourcing. And uh that is also what we see. And um I think it it makes a lot of sense. People should specifically bio uh tech companies, they were built up on a certain knowledge and they are really good in their knowledge, and they should uh take certain processes and bring them to experts and let the experts run that thing.

Christian Soschner 1:18:25

I think it's understandable. I couldn't agree. Why was just while you were talking, I was just looking for a book because it was my research focus in the in the 90s. But I don't uh it's it's it's from St. Gala here. It's uh it's uh networked economy, das Netzwerk unternehmen. It's uh Elger Fleisch wrote it. He's uh at the University of St. Gallen, I think mean by Eth Zürich, and uh I think the 80s, 70s, 80s, 60s were different because uh companies hired people for everything. And with the knowledge society, as you said, um, I mean, we when you need an expert once a year, yeah. The I think companies who hire an expert for one consultation per year, even when they can afford it, uh break the expert. Because what is the expert doing? He's sitting around, so it's just one year for 360 days sitting around at one day of work. Uh it's like destroying a racehorse. So if a racehorse is not running races, um, it's just getting weak. And outsourcing, especially in a specialist specialist economy, uh, absolutely makes sense because uh when you focus on biophysics, sorry, when you focus on biophysics, uh you can throw challenges on your team every single day. Yeah. And this trains the people and it's it helps them to get better in their field uh compared to a company where they get one day of training per year. Yeah. So over time, your team will be more successful because they just gather more information, they get more experience, they can improve. Uh, so outsourcing makes a whole lot of sense for everything that is not needed on a daily basis in a company. And luckily, with the modern technology we have right now with Zoom, for example, we can now do Zoom calls. It was unthinkable six years ago, or even three years ago. Uh, you can also engage with experts somewhere in the world. When you have a group, you can catch them on a call, meet them once, and work together then virtually. Absolutely.

Thomas Schubert 1:20:29

And that is exactly the we have showcases. We we work with pharmaceutical companies that have awesome equipment. Uh latest stuff that we also hear is great, but the key personnel has left. Bam! What do they do? The great and really cool process that they have bought up, uh, you know, built it up, suddenly is down. The key personnel is gone. So sometimes we our task is just to coordinate how to build that up again. This that's exactly why outsourcing is important. So to avoid these situations, this is a pity for them. They have invested so much money and effort and time into building up the complete process, and suddenly one piece is missing. And that is why outsourcing makes sense a lot. But in the same moment, one also has to be very fair and to say, uh, listen, if you use a certain process every day, please think about integrating this internally. We will help you with that, because that is something that you will use every day, and you should have that under your control. That's a that's the opposite thing. And I think we we should see the both things of both ends, and at least we support on both ends.

Christian Soschner 1:21:42

Yeah, I totally agree. It's similar, like uh the social media trend, for example. I mean, it's uh something that many companies also in life science are now do it, doing it. Uh, three years ago, nobody did it, nobody wanted it. And also, my suggestion is when a CEO is not sure, uh, let's just stay on the social media example, is not sure whether they should do something on social media or not, get an expert, pay an expert. So if you pay them an hourly rate uh for consultation and you find out after 10 hours it's not your thing, nothing is lost. So it's you just cancel the contract and say, Okay, thank you very much for your help, but uh we now do something different. And if a CEO says, Okay, I would like to test it further, then he still can stay on an outsourcing level and say, Okay, post something for me or come up with suggestions once a week. And when the expert, when the CEO then sees that things start working, that it really makes a difference in the company, and he needs the consultant every single day, it's the right point in time, to think about integrating the process into the company and make sort of uh social media, you know, tech transfers not used in social media, but it's basically uh transferring the know-how, the expertise into a company to an employee. And also when the company is growing, I mean for big farm, it would be stupid sometimes to outsource parts when they can just build their own departments, uh especially for social media activities. Just imagine with Pfizer, they don't need outsourcing partners, probably. They can build a huge department internally because they need it on a daily basis, anyways. Right, sure. But for the small biotechs, when they need uh, let's say uh a press release every six months and they want to do it with audio and video, probably it's better to find an outsourcing partner who stays up to date with technology, who knows how the uh platforms work. And I think it's similar in your field. I mean, when someone is not sure whether biophysics can really help speed up the development process in the company, it's good to start with a consultation and uh try things out, uh, play around a little bit, be playful. And if it works, integrate it. And if it doesn't work, just stop it. Exactly.

Thomas Schubert 1:23:52

Absolutely. And I think that's that's you can transfer that to different things. And I think your example of the um social media is absolutely uh brilliant because that's again one of these things that you probably have not learned as a CEO to handle these things, right? You where you don't have the education, but it's uh it's also something where an expert should should should help because it's uh you can do a lot of things uh good, but you can do it better uh if you're an expert. Uh and so I fully agree with you on that.

Christian Soschner 1:24:23

Yeah, with experts, what what what I think is good with experts is the focus, focus to have up-to-date information and not outdated information. When an expert can't train on a daily basis in a company, uh think uh for this this 10% of something. So having someone in the company who is 90% engaged with other things and 10% with something might sound like a good idea initially to say, okay, we have this 10% role in the company, but this person doesn't get any training. While uh a biophysicist in your company, what should they do? Yeah, they just need to work every day on the same topic, they need 100%, they get 100% challenges, and this makes a difference on the long run. Absolutely correct. Let's let's talk a little bit about trends in drug discovery and drug development that you see, uh, especially with a focus on biophysics. When we look when we look into the future for 10 years, it's the fun part. I know predictions are very, very hard and very tricky, and they might not uh come true, but let's just let's just play a little bit around with it. With your expertise in biophysics, where do you see drug development and drug discovery in 10 years? And where do you see the role of biophysics in that field?

Thomas Schubert 1:25:40

Okay, um, so first of all, I think um to start with the second question, biophysics will still be very important um because at some point people will need a validation in the lab uh for anything, whatever they have found. Now, coming to the trends, um I think there are several trends that that are already visible. Some of them, I'm not sure, I'm not sure if you even can call it a trend anymore. It's it's already kind of even settled, uh, kind of. But um, for example, the in silico prediction. So it's really something that started five, six, seven, ten years ago, I would say, um, to basically uh give uh the computation a chance to predict a certain drug. And there are different approaches, um, now also strengthened with uh alpha fold and um also some other um interesting um algorithms to predict uh structures of proteins. Um this is um definitely still an emerging field. Um I think one has to be fair that uh so far, um, with uh some nice exceptions, I have to admit, um this concept um should still um yeah show uh the effect uh efficiency a little bit more prominent, in my eyes. That's my personal opinion, right? Uh with some exceptions. So there are great companies out there that do an incredible job. Um but it seems that it's not that easy as everybody said. Um so you cannot simply take a random algorithm and simply modify it a little bit and then predict the best compound ever. This is you need to be an expert in that. So this has is, I think, the consequence of what we've learned in the last uh years. And um, this is something that has not been there in 10 years before. It's now uh something that is modern, and I think that is something that is even more pronounced in the future. So I still am convinced that this is uh something that uh will uh give more or will gain more attention even uh in five to ten years. So giving the chance to a computational prediction to identify compounds or to help to develop uh drugs. Uh reason one is that the algorithm is getting improved and improved. Uh, reason two is that the speed of um computational um uh you know um uh capacities are increasing a lot. Um, quantum computers are uh for sure in 10 years uh a topic that we can discuss. And then, of course, uh with higher power uh behind computation, you could even reach more things. So I'm still convinced that this has a fair chance. Still, in the end, you need a certain validation, and biophysics is one of those validation tools where you can then see if the predicted compound will um bind to the target of interest, whatever it is. Um in general, I see that in, or my opinion is that in 10 years, uh the uh landscape of uh the classical small molecule-based drug discovery has changed a lot. I think small molecules will not be the entity of future. I think um protex will um um take over a large part of the of the market and also biologics. Um, biologics um are on the run in the moment. I'm not just talking about um antibodies, but um other uh entities uh which uh will take more and more uh market share of the drug discovery realm. This is my personal opinion. And I don't think that the classical small molecule drug discovery uh has that large share in 10 years as it has now. Yeah, so I think that that's the summary of what I think uh is are the trends. Um I also think, yeah, I missed one thing. I think that um The focus will also be more and more on structural biology and giving structure more relevance in drug discovery, meaning medicinal chemists will take this even more into account in future. And then, of course, also related to the general topic of other life science areas, which take more or will be more important, are the systematic approaches to really see the cell as a system with interconnectivity. And I'm very sure that in 10 years the interconnectivity between factors will be more and more relevant as it can be today for different reasons. Also, for example, computation and these things will improve that. So I think, therefore, in 10 years, drug discovery will be different, and different entities, different approaches, different um yeah molecules that are of great interest. Bottom line is, however, that biophysics will still be uh playing a big role.

Christian Soschner 1:30:47

Yeah, I believe that you mentioned the beginning simulation and the switch from chemics to biology. Yeah. I didn't find uh uh a graphic, I was hoping that I find something quickly while you were speaking. Uh how the I think this trend is there. I first the first time that I realized it was 15-16. Biologics was, I think, a very small part of the market uh 10 years ago, and now it's just growing. And I don't know if it's correct, but I think it's 50-50, meanwhile. It's uh I'm I I'm not quite sure.

Thomas Schubert 1:31:17

But uh I also agree with that that number, even that I don't know it, but I can I I think that could be the case, yeah. So at least uh uh what you see when you compare the FDA approvals, when you look at the small molecules and uh biologics, uh they take off and and uh are really uh boosting much more than small molecule-based um FDA improvements.

Christian Soschner 1:31:39

And the third part is that systematic I was thinking about systemic approach. So one of the questions I had early in life was how how do disease evolve? So, how do diseases start and what can people do to stay healthy in general, generally speaking? I'm also hoping that uh in 10 years we integrate more uh early stage uh changes in the body. And I what I find really great these days is that a lot of scientists spend time to investigate how lifestyle, for example, also changes uh the biological system that uh let's say uh encourages the body to stay healthy, and science can make it just better together with the pharma industry. I mean, there are so many, so many things playing around with nature. But what I heard very often in the last couple of days, and also with a few recordings, was uh which I have hard time believed, to be honest, uh, simulating the entire drug development value chain. So it's just uh putting uh a compound, biologic source small molecule, through a simulation and uh do all tests and trials within the simulation. Um what's your opinion? It's just it's just guesswork, yeah? It's not science anymore, it's just being the fun part of the conversation where we can just bluntly guess and label it as it's uh a best estimate and just making fun here. Uh, do you think this is possible that uh at one point in time with quantum computers, uh it will be possible to simulate everything to speed up the drug development process? So it's just putting an idea into a computer and let him let him or her do the calculations, and at the end of the day, you get your new drug out of a manufacturer out of a factory. Now I have it.

Thomas Schubert 1:33:31

So let's assume this is true. Um I would say that uh human nature will simply not uh allow that uh computer will just do everything, and we want to see the proof. So I think that at some point we will need to see the proof, and uh at some point uh it has to be validated. And at least in the later stages, I doubt that any prediction can really come up with a talk study. People will want to see this, they want to see how a cell uh is acting when it really touches that device, that molecule, whatever it is. I doubt that uh in this point, latest, uh, that any uh human nature would allow uh a prediction to be as valid as an experiment. Because here it's about life. And I think also the authorities will simply not accept this. I would agree that in the first space, uh drug discovery, very early one. I could imagine that a certain level of uh automatization is there with uh predictions, because nobody's harmed if it's wrong. But latest at the point where a human being is harmed or could be harmed or a cell could be harmed, at that point there has to be a proof. And at this point, um the prediction is out of the game. That's my personal opinion.

Christian Soschner 1:34:49

Yeah, if I come from the economic side, and I calculated a lot of predictions um in really simple models. So the capitalistic system, so we were talking about it earlier in the conversation. Um, predicting the future of economy of a company in a in a stable economy is uh pretty easy. You have a few parameters, you can fiddle around when you just can assume that the customer demand will stay the same. But it's impossible to predict uh disruptions. For example, I was in the mobile industry for a couple of months in 2004-5, uh, to make a company more attractive for a takeover. And nobody, I think, in the industry here in Europe expected that Steve Jobs will put a smartphone on the market that just destroys all smartphone, all mobile phone producers here in Europe. Uh, this is unpredictable. When I think about biological systems, they are very complex, and a lot of things like sleep, like nutrition, bad relationships just change the composition of the body slightly and make the body more uh prone to become sick, seem to simulate that. This this these subtle parameters that have an influence on the biological system in a computer. I just have a hard time imagining it.

Thomas Schubert 1:36:12

Me too, honestly. Even though I actually do come from the epigenetics realm, so the regulation of genes on not on a DNA basis, but on a level above the DNA. And so it's proven that there are several regulations, which most of the time come over generations, um, not necessarily in a in an organism itself, but maybe in the siblings where a certain uh change has happened. Um, and it could be bad nutrition, it could be these kinds of things. So here they are absolutely proofs, and I absolutely uh believe in that uh this is important for you and also your siblings to be healthy and to take care about that. I also do believe that it also has consequences for yourself. I believe that, but I am sharing your opinion. I am not sure if you can simulate that kind of complex system as a cell is. I know that climate is also extremely difficult to predict. I know that a lot of things are highly difficult to predict, but I still believe that a cell, I mean, you have several billion cells in your body and they each interact with each other. And uh so there's so many overlaps, and I can I simply maybe I'm too short in mind to really believe in that, but I don't yeah, with quantum physics.

Christian Soschner 1:37:37

The funny thing was that um it was in the second half of the 90s when I was talking with martial arts teachers about how to stay healthy, and their recommendation basically was drink more water, uh sleep more, and exercise and have positive social relationships, and of course, hygiene. So it was basically this these five elements, and it was not enough for me. So I say, where is the proof? So where are the studies that uh prove that what you say is right, and there was not. I mean, the late 90s or the the the mid-90s, there was this time when the internet was not really very evolved. Getting studies from somewhere in the world meant uh asking a lot of questions to people to find the right expert uh who is doing a study, and now we have Google. And whenever I want to find a study, I just ask Google and say, give me a sleep study. And the great thing is that what they said back in the 90s, through observation, basically, through centuries of observation in martial arts, is now proven right by scientists that uh in studies, it's a little bit later. Um, to simulate that. Um I don't I don't know if it's if it's possible. So when you when you go down the disease route, then how does new small molecules or any biological approach affect a system for the first time? There is no information there. So with with uh with sleep in martial arts, basically they had centuries of observation, centuries of data, um, simulating something new when you throw a new small molecule into a body.

Thomas Schubert 1:39:20

I think there's also maybe this this topic about um teaching an algorithm with existing data and creating uh data. I think there's a discrepancy, right? So I'm not sure if you can create something new. Uh you can teach on basis of observations, as you uh explained, but I'm I'm not sure how the translation would be to create something new then uh if we call about this drug discovery, uh you know, prediction things.

Christian Soschner 1:39:49

I I I'm not an expert in this, but I I think I think it was Jack Ma from Alibaba who said that we should train our children in creativity because creativity cannot be simulated, everything else can be automated, but not creativity, and it would mean, in my opinion, it's a philosophical question. Maybe can AIs be creative? Can they be trained to be as creative as humans?

Thomas Schubert 1:40:13

I would love to have a conversation with an AI guy about this. I I don't know, uh, but I I think I I'm not sure. I'm not sure because it's an algorithm that learns from something. But what's the there is a fundamental difference between learning and then having an own effort to be creative. There is a difference. Not sure, but I that would be super interesting. You should uh get somebody from the AI world and and discuss that. And I I'm I will listen to the podcast several times, I promise.

Christian Soschner 1:40:43

If you if you if you know an AI guy, uh I mean a no one is like yes, actually, I I also know one. If if uh so uh send it, send him send him or her my way so we can have a conversation.

Thomas Schubert 1:40:54

I'll I'll do that. That would be, I mean, it's a really fascinating philosophic question, absolutely.

Christian Soschner 1:40:59

I mean, um I loved playing when I was in school, it's the 80s. Um, I loved playing chess, and this was also the time when the first chess computers arrived on the market, yeah. And then I stopped for three decades, and for some reason, I think I saw a podcast about chess. Um, I'm now interested in chess, and a lot changed these days. And there are a lot of uh bots on the market, there are a lot of uh chess computers, chess programs on the market who are even better than human beings. But uh it doesn't impress me. So when I see okay, this is a bot or a computer who uh can beat uh Magnus Carlsen, for example, the best chess player currently in the world, as far as I observed it, uh it doesn't change anything. But what created emotional uh what created emotions in me was this discussion between Niemann and Magnus Carlson uh whether uh this other chess player Neumann, uh this other chess player cheated in a game or not. So I find this very attractive when two people uh want to find out who has more skill in a certain area, and I admire people for uh having the focus and the time and the nerves to become proficient in one area, in one walk of life. This I think is attractive when a machine achieves something, and that's uh uh for me it's not very attractive.

Thomas Schubert 1:42:21

Yeah, I think it was uh from the first instant, I have to admit that I was very impressed. So I think Deep Blue was the first of those uh chess um computers that uh was beating uh uh chess uh master um uh Kasparov for how I think it was a Russian uh chess player. So I was impressed because it was like in the I don't know, 90s, 2000, maybe. I was like, wow, uh the machine, the robot is better than us. So it was the first time that I thought, okay, uh something that we created is better in something uh than we are, but on the other hand side, a car is also faster than you, right? It drives faster than you, or there's so many things that are better than we are as human. And then I thought, yeah, okay, so here it was so fascinating because it was the first time that something like from the mindset here was was was uh mindset uh was better than than that than a chess player, um. But um I still have some kind of fascination about this, uh, but I do understand your point. Um it's more interesting if uh humans which are on the same level discuss about that, because at some point you can train very likely every robot to be better in some aspect the human has.

Christian Soschner 1:43:40

Except creativity. I mean, Arot Schwarzenegger terminator was also in the 80s, so maybe, maybe we will see. We will see. Um Thomas, I could continue having fun with you and uh talking about various aspects of life. Uh, I think we are drifting off in the fun part of a conversation. Um, let me ask you the final question, two final questions. Uh, is there anything that you would like to talk about in this podcast that I didn't ask you so far?

Thomas Schubert 1:44:08

Um, no, I think uh it was great fun. You you asked really interesting questions. Um uh and um I have nothing that I really wanted to add more. I think we had we found a good solution of having discussed a certain certain trends, certain landscapes, um, general thing. Um, also giving to mind and um you know the company a certain room. I think it was very nice. So I enjoyed it a lot.

Christian Soschner 1:44:34

Me too. Me too. I had fun, it had fun in this conversation. Um, then my last question is when someone who listens to the podcast uh or watches the video on YouTube or on LinkedIn or on Facebook later on wants to reach out to you to engage with your company to find out whether your solutions are the right solutions for their companies. What's the best way to engage with you?

Thomas Schubert 1:44:57

Um, so we are um a young company, so social media, homepage, um these kind of contacts are easy. There's contacts form that you can easily reach out to us. Um, the info at two mind.com email address, it's easy to reach out. But of course, we are also open uh for classical calls, phone calls, and um uh I'm really happy if somebody reaches out to us. Um, and uh um I hope I could give the impression that we are open-minded uh staff here. And uh I promise that we are first of all listen well and then we will try to help as good as we can. That's what I promised. And um, yeah, please reach out to us. It's a pleasure.

Christian Soschner 1:45:41

Fantastic, fantastic points. That's the end. So you're a modern company, also starting the explanation how to reach out to you via social media. Uh, are you still doing real life meetings as well?

Thomas Schubert 1:45:53

Yes, um, so I think that's still very important. Um uh I think uh having the direct, I mean, there has to be a certain chemistry between people, right? And you for both ends. So, I mean, we also enjoy working with people, and for us, it's also important to have the right chemistry with the people, not just the people with us, but we also. So this is a give and take. It's a relationship between people, and so both people have or both sides has to have to be a certain comfort uh in in talking to each other, being open, being transparent, being uh honest with each other, and this has to be built up. And of course, um meetings in in person um uh have still, I would say, uh some level above uh the social media. So having a handshake, having a good conversation and these things, it's it's important. Absolutely.

Christian Soschner 1:46:44

I couldn't agree more. We need both things, social media and real life, uh good mixture of that uh saves time and creates connections and relationships. Uh Thomas, thank you very much for your time. Thanks a lot for this great explanation about what biophysics is, how it's evolved and developed in the last 10 years, and future predictions. I wish you and your team all the best uh for the final days of this year. And uh I think it's can we say already we had uh we are for Christmas? I wish you a Merry Christmas and a great start into 2023. So it's the first time that I wish that.

Thomas Schubert 1:47:20

Okay, thank you, Christian, a lot for the really, really nice open discussion. And uh it was a great pleasure and uh great concept that you have. Um, I really enjoyed it. Thanks a lot. Thank you very much. You have a good time.

Christian Soschner 1:47:32

Thank you. Have a great day. Bye bye. Ciao. Did you like the show? Then make sure that you like, comment, and share these episodes with people who might benefit from it. Thank you very much.