#30: Alexander Wurzer - The Digital Shift: Navigating the Complex World of Digital Patents

In the age of Industry 4.0, as businesses pivot towards digitization, the landscape of intellectual property rights is evolving rapidly. How can companies stay ahead in this game of digital patents?

Dive into this episode to uncover:

• The challenges and intricacies of patenting digital business models.
• The shift from traditional patent perspectives to a software-driven economy.
• The role of intellectual property in safeguarding and innovating digital business strategies.

 About Prof. Alexander Wurzer:
A renowned expert in the field of intellectual property, Prof. Alexander Wurzer delves deep into the complexities of digital patents. With extensive experience and insights, he sheds light on the changing dynamics of the digital age and its implications on business models and strategies.

Key Quotes:
(04:14) "Europe is not really represented in patent applications for digital fields."
(18:03) "It's not about reality; it's a game. As long as you fulfill the legal provisions, you'll get your patent."
(32:00) "Only ownership gives me the right to motivate a third party to use that estate."
(49:15) "As soon as you explain the implementation, it transitions from an idea to something patentable."
(1:03:58) "This person should fall in love with your idea and passionately fight for it."
(1:27:43) "When you are natural born in the cloud, you write different patents and use the patent in a totally different way like you make software; you understand the concepts, the architecture, the implementation."

Timestamps:
(0:12) Exploring the Patentability of Digital Business Models
(1:25) The Evolution of Digital Patent Perspectives
(4:14) The Reality of Patenting Digital Business Models in Europe
(14:55) Technological Knowledge vs. Real-World Application
(18:03) The Game of Patents: Reality vs. Possibility
(25:00) Leveraging Patents in the Digital Age
(30:49) The Misunderstanding of Open Source and Patents
(34:06) The Intricacies of Digital Business Models and Patents
(42:49) Why Global Companies Enforce Digital Patents in Germany
(46:39) Formulating Technical Solutions in Patents
(49:15) The Fine Line Between Ideas and Patentable Implementations
(57:54) Starting with Business Cornerstones for Patenting
(1:02:22) The Essence of Combining Life Science and Digital Expertise
(1:03:22) Emotional Connection: The Key to Patent Success
(1:07:41) Strategies Behind Patenting: Beyond Just Granting
(1:33:24) Rethinking the Purpose: Clean Clothes over Washing Machines
(1:34:58) Tesla's Vision: Beyond Cars to Realizing Use Cases
(1:41:12) IP Strategy: Balancing Trade Secrets and Patents

For the videophile:
The Video to the Podcast

Speaker:
Prof. Alexander Wurzer (https://www.linkedin.com/in/profalexanderwurzer/)
Astrid Woollard (https://www.linkedin.com/in/astridwoollard/)

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Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:30:19
Speaker 1
Welcome to a new episode of the Life Science Get Together podcast. Today we are talking about one of my favorite topics digital business models, especially about the question Is it possible to patent digital business models? I looked into this topic way back into the nineties when I was a student at the university and working for a research organization, and Dan said the nineties was quite simple.

00:00:31:06 - 00:00:59:01
Speaker 1
It's not possible to patent anything around digital, it's not possible to patterns cult. When I got interested in 2015 in Digital Health, I looked into this topic a second time and came to the same conclusion. It's not possible. So when I started, reached out to me with the idea of looking into this topic a first time, to be honest, I thought, yeah, about probably I would come to the same conclusion.

00:00:59:07 - 00:01:28:09
Speaker 1
It's not possible to patent anything, but I agreed that it makes sense to, to, to at least look at it the first time. So when we had the preparation call with Professor up, how should I say it? I think it describes best. Besides, I had a life changing, game changing, enlightening revelation during this call and I realized how little I know about this topic.

00:01:28:09 - 00:01:45:11
Speaker 1
So I'm very happy today to have Astrid Walnuts and Professor Witz on the call. And especially thank you very much, Astrid, that you had describe it to you so that we get a chance to learn more about the reality of patenting digital business models. Astrid, over to you.

00:01:45:16 - 00:02:07:14
Speaker 2
Thank you very much. It's really great to be on this podcast episode with you. So just a brief introduction. And for people who don't know me, I'm a partner and head of research for Digital Investments. So we've been previously at Sitel Ventures, so we're currently undergoing a rebranding there, and this is where I'm on my day to day activity.

00:02:07:14 - 00:02:40:07
Speaker 2
I source screen and analyze potential investment opportunities in the blockchain space. My background, however, is very heavy on IP strategy. And by the way, it's a very common misunderstanding that VCs will only look for a higher number of patents in an investment opportunity, or at least the ones that know about IP will actually rather look for a sort of realistic and reasonable mix of all the sort of asset classes that are out there in this space.

00:02:40:07 - 00:03:11:01
Speaker 2
So really a mix of those specifically tailored to your business and IP strategy doesn't necessarily mean like all patent, all of it. It's a very big strategic field. So it basically evaluates the use of a range of IP instruments. So patents are part of it. Yes, but there's also copyright and the licensing strategy that goes with that, those trademarks and those so very notably in trade secrets when it comes to patenting.

00:03:11:07 - 00:03:53:17
Speaker 2
Most of us will be aware that in order to patented technology, it must be novel, it must be inventive, it must have industrial application and must be of both subject matter. However, there's a lot of confusion out there when it comes to ability of software, and even more so when it comes to Patrick and digital business model, which I need to be very honest, was also in news to me until a few months ago when my first call with Professor Gupta and I was actually really fascinated hearing about this, but it immediately sort of highlighted to me a great danger in there for a lot of startups out there, but also for established companies.

00:03:53:17 - 00:04:11:07
Speaker 2
To be honest, what this topic actually means, what implication it has for their own IP strategy. So it's a real pleasure to welcome Professor what's a here we visit this podcast and to hear all about this exciting topic.

00:04:11:22 - 00:04:52:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, I thank you very much for having me here. Um, my name is Alex on the website. I'm Professor for the role of IP within the digital transformation for more than 15 years now and yeah, what should I say for from my perspective, it's funny to think that especially a digital business models could not be protected via patents because that's so to speak, the cornerstone of so many IP strategies which can obviously be seen and analyzed and are documented and published.

00:04:52:05 - 00:05:38:03
Speaker 1
And we have trainings with the IP helpdesk in Europe, in China and in Latin America. We, we teach that with the European Patent Office. So I'm professor at the Center for IP Studies at the University of Strasbourg, which is the Central Education Institution for European Patent A Tourneys. And to a certain extent I'm a little bit shocked how big that gap is between what we do, so to speak, of the IP academic world and what is at the end outside of the real world where really the decision are made, where the money is made, how how big is the gap between the two thinking starts?

00:05:38:03 - 00:06:20:04
Speaker 1
And I'm very happy and thankful for the idea from as to what art to to bring me together with Mr. Sarma and that I have the opportunity to explain a little bit what's going on in that we are maybe strange IP world because I guess it's it's very, very important that the different communities that use the life science community understand a little bit better that it makes sense to make at least a little of deep stuff in the topic when it comes to decisions of business decisions and and investments due to real issues.

00:06:21:09 - 00:07:17:16
Speaker 1
Many thanks for the opening parts, Professor Watson. I have one question at the beginning as I start with I started with it's not possible to patent anything around the topic of digital. How is the reality? When we look at digital life science, what's going on in that space on the patent sides? Yeah, so I have received today that latest figures from the colleagues, from the EPO, from your patent office, and there is a fascinating study which I will later on put on the IP business Academy, which is which, which is a, a blog on the protection of digital business models, which we run from Sapiens and the latest figures are tremendous.

00:07:18:04 - 00:07:56:12
Speaker 1
So you can so the the patent applications on for on the on the fourth digital industrial revolution are skyrocketing and they they they overall. So it's it's it's unbelievable they are really this connected now to all the other technologies how they go in the height and we the problem with which we have it's not that we have not sufficient or not enough patent applications this is enormous.

00:07:56:12 - 00:08:33:03
Speaker 1
We have a rising figure from 45% over the last three years, and it's even it goes more dynamic now than ever. That's not the issue. The problem is that the patent applications not coming from Europe. So so Europe is not really represented in the patent applications compared to how European companies, for example, in the life science era typically represented in overall technologies.

00:08:33:03 - 00:09:12:23
Speaker 1
So what we see is a tremendous lack of patent activities in digital fields and especially at the protection of, let's say, economically relevant digital objects like use cases, customer journeys, user experience of business models, apps, all these economically important digital objects. So we have here usually like compared to what's America so United States based companies filing in Europe and especially also Asian companies filing in Europe.

00:09:13:13 - 00:09:40:02
Speaker 1
Let me ask one question to dig a little bit deeper into their reality of patenting a digital model. How does that work? Because I got several times to information. It's it's impossible. You can't do that. So how when when when I have an idea, where should I start? What? What what is necessary to file a digital patent or what are doing for US based and the Chinese companies differently.

00:09:40:02 - 00:10:12:15
Speaker 1
What what what protocols are going? Can we please talk a little bit about the basics? Of course, of course. So the starting point is that many people even don't understand what a business model means and they are confused. They confuse the two business process, as with business modeling. So that's that's the starting point of the misunderstanding. And unfortunately, we have to the kind of business process, patent in the United States.

00:10:13:05 - 00:10:43:11
Speaker 1
And once they heard that they hear business and patent, they start to be confused. Okay, So first thing is, I'm not talking about business process patents, I'm talking about patenting business models. So what is a business model? A business model describes how you run your business. We have two parts, Shipping General. Okay? We have the resource part which reflects a resource based fuel.

00:10:43:21 - 00:11:19:03
Speaker 1
So your value chain, your resources, your the, the way how you create the customer benefit or let's say the value, the value proposition. And we have the market sides which tells us which market position do you have. So how do you deliver anything? Okay. And how would you communicate your unique selling proposition? So this reflects the market based view and typical business model is the trick how to create something which somebody wants.

00:11:19:03 - 00:11:57:05
Speaker 1
And you make money with it. So so you create a profit. And so you you have a balance between that both sides and digital business model now uses digital technologies on some of these four sectors. Okay. So the value creation, the competencies, one, two, three, the market position, the way you deliver and for how would you communicate maybe in one of these sectors or in more than one sector of an all sectors is using digital technologies.

00:11:57:05 - 00:12:27:05
Speaker 1
That's why we call it a digital business model. And as soon as you use digital technology technologies, you use technologies. So what is important is a, let's say, a new combination of of solving a technical issue with technical means. That's it. So that means, let's say you collect so so now and now we, we, we need that description.

00:12:27:18 - 00:12:53:19
Speaker 1
We need to question what is your trick? Why is your business model different from others? And which technologies to you need to use, which data you do to have access to certain data? How do you get the data, how you mixed the data, how you process analyze that data to deliver something which is now different from from anything else before.

00:12:54:03 - 00:13:38:01
Speaker 1
So how you do optimization, how you do suggestions, how you improve things. Yeah, and that are all technical questions which are solved with digital technologies. So and when there is any keyhole, let's say a certain access to data, okay, even when you are not allowed for the moment, maybe you're not allowed to collect the data, but you could patent it saying once you are allowed to, once you have that sense or once you have access to the data, you would combine it from this in that way and deliver this and that value to your customers.

00:13:38:10 - 00:14:05:09
Speaker 1
So and the way how you do that, once it is critical in terms of when I patent that, nobody else would be able to process that data in that way. So then you have protected by a patent your test, your business model. So it's the it's the digital technical implementation of the critical aspects, how you make profit in your business model.

00:14:05:22 - 00:14:28:16
Speaker 1
That means other would be able to do something that say similar. It's it looks similar but finally they have not the critical competitive advantages which you patent and so you are sustainable and the others not. And this is exactly how we patent, the way how we make business.

00:14:28:24 - 00:14:51:22
Speaker 2
This is really fascinating. But I'm wondering, for example, for like young upcoming startup, it's sometimes even difficult to just look for any kind of patented technology out there. An app database is like a specialized or patent scope of Google patents. Whatever is out there also is free resources. But how do you actually start even looking for a digital business model?

00:14:52:14 - 00:15:21:16
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's again a big, big misunderstanding. If that means many people, especially let's say technological people, right, coming out of the university are full of that technological knowledge and totally driven of the way of their technology. Okay. And the first thought is how can it happen that so but this is exactly the opposite of what I'm talking about.

00:15:21:16 - 00:16:00:00
Speaker 1
But once you become digital, you become complex, you become big, you have extreme big systems which are extremely complex, you have interdependencies. And so that means once when you start with technology, that leads you to nowhere, and that is exactly that kind of patterning. What we see out of misunderstanding, frustration, I don't know. People patent meaningless, ridiculous technical solutions for technical problems which definitely not exist or purely artificial.

00:16:00:17 - 00:16:28:10
Speaker 1
So that's not the way how you should do it. Okay? What you do is you come from your customer. That's a business model. That means you need a customer. The customer should have it should feel anyhow that you do something for it or for for the customer. So that means you, you, you analyze your use cases. So why are you able to realize that use case and what what makes that different from others?

00:16:28:23 - 00:16:57:02
Speaker 1
So that means we have a wonderful example. I guess everybody can understand that. Okay, so don't make it too technical to understand how the game works. And that's that's maybe the most important thing. It's a game, okay? It's not it's nothing real. As long as you fulfill all the legal provisions and as long as it is physical or chemical.

00:16:57:03 - 00:17:20:07
Speaker 1
So on a natural science realizable, that's it. It's it is not necessary that you do it, that you can do it, that you want to do it. The cornerstone is that you want to have a forbidding right against third parties. So and the next thing is you have to understand your use case. So and then you, you, you have to protect a use case and nothing else.

00:17:20:07 - 00:17:43:14
Speaker 1
So and what I try to explain to people is, so how do you play an art? How do you patent artificial intelligence? Let's say you have any how a life science business model and you have an optimization or a process routine which runs this artificial intelligence. So the typical technical approach is not only law. We are from the training data from algorithms to it.

00:17:43:15 - 00:18:29:13
Speaker 1
So now you even don't mention artificial intelligence when you want to patent. Okay. We have a wonderful example of the EPO. It's the inventor of the year from 2090. So this is a guy which comes from Norway and the Norwegian, they have this this forms for salesmen and they have. And the problem with parasites and this parasites lives on the on the skin of that sounds so and he patent a method and they get tricked which is a laser cannon which she dumps into that form.

00:18:30:08 - 00:19:09:02
Speaker 1
And this laser cannon is able to identify on on a swimming cell lung. Okay. They quite quite fast on a swimming. Someone identifies the this Yeah. This pesticide does this as far as I am focused on it and make some precise shot which is focused one or two millimeters ahead of the skin of the swimming. So I want to kill the the parasite.

00:19:09:22 - 00:19:36:16
Speaker 1
So this is a package. The question is, how are they doing? How are you doing that? Okay. Which software could solve that? It's very simple. The inventor of the is explaining you. This is machine learning and this only and I and I solution is able to do that. But this is not written in the patent for what I is like is like a screw.

00:19:36:16 - 00:20:02:17
Speaker 1
It's simply a technology which works. Nobody nobody is in doubt that it works. Okay, So I don't have to explain that. Explain what you're doing with it. What are you do? What is the use case? What makes you what difference you what is here new? What is inventive, how you apply. Yeah. And to describe are and this is the way how you should think.

00:20:04:09 - 00:20:35:04
Speaker 1
It's not the technique in question per say, especially when it comes to digital solutions. It's the it's a combination of existing solutions which makes it unique and you are able to provide a totally new inventive use case which which creates benefit. Don't mention people. I just mentioned technology. We don't mention the sale of itself. It's just that you want to kill that parasite and that's it.

00:20:36:04 - 00:21:12:12
Speaker 1
And then you have sharp technical teaching in terms of what we need to declare in the patent. That's it. But you've never come to such a patent when you start with your one question from my side to just reiterate if I got it right. So my thinking so far was when my team has an idea we need to find a solution, we produce the solution, we bring it to, let's say, minimum prototype stage that it really works.

00:21:12:21 - 00:21:40:20
Speaker 1
And then we have to look on the patent side if it's possible to find a patent. So but when I am listening to you, it sounds to me like this unnecessary. So we just need to have the idea and we can already start looking into it on the on the patent set because you mentioned don't mention the idea is so is it really so that we just needs to sit down and put the idea together and then we can go be able to go, okay.

00:21:40:20 - 00:22:09:03
Speaker 1
So nowhere in the patent lawsuit that on that globe is written that you have to do what you are patenting. Okay, for For what? Yeah. So you can say the early laser patent is the early microwave patents. These guys are not the guys who are not able to produce a product which works really okay. The early lasers, that was a laboratory experiment, not a product.

00:22:09:03 - 00:22:43:10
Speaker 1
And even that, we have many, many patents where the one the guy apparently does is not able to produce that to do that for. But that's not the point. So as long as it is doable and you convince your examiners that it can be done, that's it. Of course it's okay. Again, don't don't confuse it with reality. And that means let's let's, for example, work to make it as clear as possible.

00:22:44:04 - 00:23:15:24
Speaker 1
We have at the moment big, big discussion out there on how to apply 5G. So I would say 50% of all thinkable 5G application and use cases are already patent. How can you do that when 5G is not existing at the moment? Of course, you you, you imagine what you could do once you have such such a network with such an ability.

00:23:16:13 - 00:23:47:02
Speaker 1
That's it. And you have certain advantages because that kind of characteristic is or will be available. And out of that you get your new and inventive use case solution based on a 5G network. Whether that exists or not doesn't play any role here, but it means it is. I would say your your procedure is it's not bad per se.

00:23:47:03 - 00:24:12:23
Speaker 1
You can do that if you have the time, if you are not in competition, as soon as you are in competition with others, and as soon as these others understand that the one we have the first to file principle first to find me, it's the one who is the first who fought his things through and was able to write it down, will get the patent.

00:24:14:02 - 00:24:52:05
Speaker 1
And that means you should be as fast as possible. Thinking that digital understanding which kind of exclusivity print how how that works. Look at ping good doctor from from China a unicorn the one of the biggest insurance companies in the world but at the same time one of the biggest patent applicant on that globe and they think the things through and make the patents whether this is doable it is legal this is not the point.

00:24:53:11 - 00:25:18:09
Speaker 1
As long as you fulfill the provisions of the patent law, you can get your patent. Let me get it straight in my mind. So it basically means what I need is an investor with 50 pocket on one hand. On the other hand, I need a smart team who can think things through to the end, especially on the use case side.

00:25:18:18 - 00:25:51:24
Speaker 1
And I need a smart patent attorney and we don't need to to put any other work in it. Then coming up with a concept we don't need to put it in reality. We can start filing patents when we have a all true concept. Is it right? You described the business model of Intellectual Ventures, which is one of the biggest patent funds in the world, which has a funding of, I guess, six, 6 billion.

00:25:53:04 - 00:26:22:13
Speaker 1
And this is exactly what they're doing. Yeah. And you describe the business model from from signifying the form of Philips lighting. Uh, they, they go use case by use case. They, they, they analyze that, they make big shows, invite people to think what could be done with light in the future. They patent it and then they license that out.

00:26:23:08 - 00:26:57:10
Speaker 1
Okay? So they have it right now. They have. So it's a case study on IP Business Academy. So it's it's well documented. Look at that. It's a huge licensing program of more than 1000 licenses. So each and every manufacturer on that globe is license at signify because. But you want to realize a certain use case. You will find out that it is already patented from signify as long as you use LEDs for it.

00:26:58:00 - 00:27:37:07
Speaker 1
So and so this is a this is a business. So this is how that game is is played, how the big boys play it. And when when we go to the startups, I don't think it is necessary always having that deep pockets this this this is a the deep pocket game is for the big boys but once you are smart and clever and you are able to think things through before others, you will find the classical keyholes in terms of this is a central position.

00:27:37:07 - 00:28:09:17
Speaker 1
Once you have for that, a certain area is not any more accessible and that's what you are looking for. That's the package which which has really value because it is the cornerstone of doing that business. And typically it is the way of getting data or a certain data model or the way of using data. And again, whether you have access at the moment or not is not the point.

00:28:11:04 - 00:28:43:07
Speaker 1
As we understand now, it is enough to to think a world in which this data would be available and via and it is physically or yeah, it is simply doable to get that data. And now explain me what's which kind of use case. What you realized was that and this is part definition new and inventive, okay, especially because the data is is isn't existing so far now.

00:28:43:11 - 00:29:15:02
Speaker 1
But when it is clear that it could be done, then just like a school. Okay, I accept we could produce that data. And now tell me what you could do with it. How can you improve? What can you suggest? How can you optimize whatever or reduce transaction costs and so on? And I guess this is really the chance when you when you think of the right way, you can really create valuable patterns which which are at least a bargaining chip in the future that you say.

00:29:15:02 - 00:29:49:18
Speaker 1
But I have exactly that. Patterns. Yeah. For example, IBM right now is suing Airbnb in the states for what based on an 18 year old patent, 18 year old patent. And this patent describes a method to display on a digital platform. Individual advertisement. So 18 years ago that was eminent that was that wasn't that the today internet. Yeah and they had never dreamed of a of a of a platform like Airbnb.

00:29:50:10 - 00:30:16:24
Speaker 1
But every music executive doing that is a use case and they do that and they go, they have their IPO, their initial public offering and they negotiate for five years now. And now IBM says no, no more. Yes. Now we go to court and that means it is important to understand what will go, what will happen, what could happen and which kind of exclusivity.

00:30:16:24 - 00:30:24:21
Speaker 1
Right. Or forbidding right of exclusivity position. I would like to have in such a digital transformed ecosystem.

00:30:24:24 - 00:30:45:10
Speaker 2
But I think this is also something that is really in terms of strategy, very important to consider for a lot of software companies. For example, I work a lot with open source software companies are open source projects and they are of the firm belief that we don't want to do have anything to do with patents because they're evil and bad.

00:30:45:10 - 00:31:11:07
Speaker 2
We want to keep free and open innovation and we can only achieve that if we don't patent things and only open source things, which is a very strong misunderstanding. Why? Because basically it's basically to keep it really open and free. You also have to have a patent strategy to guarantee this sort of freedom and openness to to other companies.

00:31:11:21 - 00:31:45:13
Speaker 1
Exactly. That's that's a big, big misunderstanding. Again, of of the patent law or in general of intellectual property. I, I explain in that way. Okay. I'm living here in Munich and shopping. So it's this is one of the hot areas in Munich. So we pay here, I would say around €2,000 for a square meter estate. And let us assume on the other side of the street is an estate which has no building on it.

00:31:45:24 - 00:32:14:06
Speaker 1
Okay. And a pedestrian comes to me and I say, you know what? I think you could use it. Just use it. It's nothing is on it. Okay. No fence. So you can you can just use it. So sooner or later, this guy will ask me whether I own that estate or not, because only ownership gives me the right to to modulate, to motivate a third party to use that estate.

00:32:14:12 - 00:32:43:17
Speaker 1
It's very simple. As long as I'm not owning it, it's ridiculous that I invite somebody to use that estate, this piece of land. Of course it is ridiculous. So and it is the same thing with intangibles when I have not made sure that I'm owning something, I cannot invite people to use it. Okay. But I'm not sure whether that whether there are other ownership rights on it.

00:32:44:00 - 00:33:17:07
Speaker 1
Okay. So people invest in a totally unsecure situation and sooner or later somebody comes, has a piece of paper in his hand. It's a pattern. And so thank you very much for developing that solution. But I am owning it. Yeah. So and that means behind all big open source projects is also a big fund of Patriot Fund, which helps to keep that thing free of third party rights.

00:33:17:11 - 00:33:47:12
Speaker 1
That's very simple. So open innovation is behind Linux and this is a multi billion dollar fund which is in which buys patents, which offers free free licenses to third parties to users, and makes sure that nobody can come up and say, how far do you expect? And that's why you as you know, it's implementation is it is infringing my patent.

00:33:48:01 - 00:34:16:21
Speaker 1
So it is very important that it makes for a for a lot of reasons it makes pretty much sense to offer a free usage, to say, I want to invite others to use my solution and I don't want to earn to collect money, but I want to have a certain value exchange, okay. And I want to whatever I want to create a de facto standard.

00:34:16:21 - 00:34:40:18
Speaker 1
But lots of strategy is can be behind that. But first of all, we have to make sure that we can do that from a legal standpoint. And that means we have to declare that we have to clarify the ownership of on that thing. We have questions from the audience. That's really fascinating. I will hand to Mike to Cynthia Tucker Stovall.

00:34:41:04 - 00:34:42:10
Speaker 1
Welcome to the show. Ksenia.

00:34:42:15 - 00:35:01:00
Speaker 2
Excellent. The question was really at the very beginning when it was there was starting to distinguish the business model in Europe from the business method in the U.S. they still sound very similar to me. Can you clarify?

00:35:01:09 - 00:35:36:21
Speaker 1
Okay. I tried to do we have that wonderful pattern in the United States of swinging a swing? Okay. It's a it's a method to clean to clean the room. So this is definitely not a business model. This is just a way of doing something. The business model describes first on the resource based view on the resource side, which kind of resources you need.

00:35:37:14 - 00:36:09:00
Speaker 1
And it describes on the market side how you how would you collect your money, how would you deliver the how do you deliver value and how you communicate that wealth and how you get the money for it. So and the difference between the cost which you have to create the value and the money you get for the value which you're delivering, that's the profit and that is based on that business model.

00:36:09:00 - 00:36:38:10
Speaker 1
So speaking of spin, don't explain me that. Okay, so the question is realized, the value in who is paying for it, how is that paying done? And in addition, when we talk about digital business models and I'm not talking I'm not saying that you can packaged every business model. I'm saying your compact and digital business models because for a digital a business model, you have to explain where is the digital technology and what is the digital technology doing?

00:36:38:16 - 00:37:33:06
Speaker 1
Okay, so let us assume you have that cleaning procedure. Okay, So it's not long ago we I worked with a company which is in the cleaning business and for example, in the cleaning business is one thing extremely important, reducing the amount of of of soap of cleaning material. So and they, they for example, have a a technology which combines the question of how to use the soap and how is the floor reacting and from what is the floor, what is the material of the floor and which kind of cleaning material do you need?

00:37:33:06 - 00:38:00:01
Speaker 1
And to optimize that and not just for the sigma, for the single procedure, they do that in a learning curve for many different rooms, many different floors, many different materials. So and they realized the optimization in yeah, and this is a cost reduction effect and that creates the value and that is power.

00:38:00:09 - 00:38:00:21
Speaker 2
Thank you.

00:38:01:11 - 00:38:32:18
Speaker 1
Welcome. I have I have another question in my mind when we go a little bit back to that startup world and how it looks like. So my traditional way was we start working and somewhere in the future we had a pattern as far as I understand your from, from this talk crap now is when I continue on this path, it means that anybody in the world, when they look at my work or the work of my team, they can start firing patterns that don't need to have anything produced.

00:38:33:24 - 00:38:59:05
Speaker 1
What's the reality then for the startup in the future? I mean, you brought up the Airbnb case. Is that happening very often in Europe that smart European guys will start working on something and on the left side, the United States guys just looking at Europe and the Chinese guys are looking at Europe and stop fighting patterns. It's that's really happening or is it just in my mind or.

00:38:59:05 - 00:39:28:23
Speaker 1
No, that's that's one of the biggest issues here that people who think that it's a objects apps to take and Shazam for example. Yeah it's one of my one of my cases in my lectures. I let I ask my students, what would you say is Shazam Partners first reaction? No. So a second reaction when Alex is asking that questions, maybe.

00:39:28:23 - 00:40:08:22
Speaker 1
Yes. So and then how many patterns? Okay, it's this patent portfolio which was bought from Apple for more than 400 million. Yeah. Is has more than 200 documents. So it's heavily heavily have a department. So yes, what happens and this is the problem people who think that cannot be patent think third parties cannot have patterns. Yeah and as I try to explain this this digital implementation of business models is the battlefield right now.

00:40:09:12 - 00:40:40:04
Speaker 1
And that means the ones who have understood understood how that game it has to be played. Yes. They start with patenting and and to all of the rest later on. And that means that you should not think that you are the first one who has a certain idea to implement a business model. That means what we call freedom to operate.

00:40:40:08 - 00:41:07:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's nothing. What you get just because you are creative and freedom to operate is hard work, but means you have an idea how to do something and then you start to look and that should be your first assumption. Okay, where's the patent? Who has already patent that concept, that idea? And once you found that, got it, you can be lucky.

00:41:07:23 - 00:41:30:09
Speaker 1
Okay, maybe you have five or six, maybe you have hundreds of patents which describe things like hundreds is hard, but let's say so very close to generic. Okay, Let's say you have really a smart idea and you see a bunch of patents ten which are enforceable. Okay. And then describe exactly what you wanted to do. It's good. That's good.

00:41:30:09 - 00:42:06:09
Speaker 1
You know, the state of the art now. And now you start to think, how could we do what we want to do to go all of that patents. Yeah, that makes us smarter and faster, and that's good. But you should not assume. Okay, that's that's the, so to speak, versus see, what you could do is that you are the first one, you are alone and that cannot be patented and that that's not a good idea, waving, so to speak, with this patent question for later.

00:42:07:11 - 00:42:21:21
Speaker 1
So once you want to run a digital model, the first thought should be which kind of patents are here involved and then you solve that problem first.

00:42:21:21 - 00:42:45:10
Speaker 2
We have already actually some experience or data on how defensible these business model patents are, especially the ones that don't really have much substance to them, but just sort of some concept, some idea. Because if you think about therapeutics, normally you have to have a sort of baseline data said where is your locator is some effectiveness. So something so you don't just easily get it by convinces that it will work somehow.

00:42:46:08 - 00:42:49:11
Speaker 2
So do we have any data that are ready for this kind of presence?

00:42:49:23 - 00:43:19:03
Speaker 1
Of course. So we have here at the regional court in Munich, we have quite a lot of disputes and we can learn a lot when we know, when we understand that. A Canadian company, Research in Motion, now the BlackBerry company sues an American and US based company, Facebook, at the regional court in Munich for the infringement of a digital patent.

00:43:19:14 - 00:44:00:18
Speaker 1
And then WhatsApp has to be reprogramed. So that tells us something where a Canadian company which wants to sue a US based company, goes to enforce the patent because WhatsApp is similar at the whole globe. So it's it's cheap. In Germany, it is very sophisticated. We have lots of case of most cases in Europe and we have very experienced and and well trained judges here.

00:44:01:09 - 00:44:34:14
Speaker 1
And that's the reason why companies around the globe like to come to Germany and to enforce their patents, especially with digital patents, because typically digital solutions are globally. So I once they have successful an app, it is it is run on computers. And as long as it is also implemented here and done here in Germany and then you can enforce your patent, you Yeah but I agree you need you said you need patent.

00:44:34:18 - 00:45:01:11
Speaker 1
Yes you need yes, you need good technology for what. Yeah. Not every so patent attorney. It's not a good one just because it's a pet matter. So same thing with professors. It's the same thing with doctors. Yeah. It is a profession. So. And within the profession you will find guys who who love like this very, very. And so to speak.

00:45:01:11 - 00:45:30:02
Speaker 1
And concrete. Not not you cannot see it. You can attach it, you can smell it. It's it's a conceptual thing which is, which is the nature of the digital solutions. So and when you are a trained mechanical engineer, chemist, a pharmaceutical, whatever, when when you have the classical scientific education, you don't like this kind abstract business, that's normal.

00:45:30:12 - 00:46:03:22
Speaker 1
And so it makes sense. It makes sense that you that you look for a patent attorney who has a certain experience and also a kind of emotional coupling to that kind of questions that makes a lot of sense. So don't assume that just because somebody is a partner, Tony, he's also in favor of what, digital patents or he is really he likes that doing that.

00:46:04:17 - 00:46:38:24
Speaker 1
That's typically not true. And in addition, quite often these kind of things that complex that these patents are relatively expensive in terms of it is something different of having an mechanical embodiment and just wrapping a patent around that. So it's just describing what I see compared to working out for a whatever manufacturing execution system or a software as a service system, a patent before it.

00:46:38:24 - 00:47:05:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's, that's typically more work and therefore it is a little bit more expensive. Yeah, that's, that's true. But in general this is what you would do you, you would use your patent attorney this, this listening experience and find out how do I have to formulate the issue that is technical. Yeah. And that I saw for technical problem.

00:47:07:00 - 00:47:43:11
Speaker 1
We have a few question in from the audience. Let's start with the first one. It's trauma detective from Sumitomo, Austria. Trauma. There is too much trauma. Good to see you, Jason. Thanks for having me. And thanks, Alex, for this wonderful lecture or webinar. I have a really basic question. I'm almost embarrassed to ask it, but so as one would essentially patent an idea, what if the idea has been already made public in the movie, on a conference, in a scientific paper or on the blog anywhere?

00:47:45:02 - 00:48:07:05
Speaker 1
Can you still get can you defend yourself and say about this is not patent infringement because the for the your your fight your patent. This idea has already been public knowledge. What are you talking about? Because if you're talking about ideas, I think there's so much that has already been published. But some wonderful question. Thank you for that.

00:48:07:05 - 00:48:44:14
Speaker 1
Because again, a big misunderstanding, again, big confusion. So let's say it in a formal way. Okay? An idea cannot be patented. So I want to offer in a restaurant individual water to people. Yeah. Nice. This is an idea. Okay, so first of all, explain me. What is individual water? Okay, then explain me. How would you do that? How how would you produce it?

00:48:44:14 - 00:49:13:21
Speaker 1
So let's by the way, over your case, sir, how would you create individual, personal, individual water? What should that be? How are doing it out? How can you identify the preference? But what individual limits is? It is it because he's he's looking angry or what creates the preference for certain water, maybe a certain illness or the combination of the taste of wine?

00:49:13:24 - 00:49:48:07
Speaker 1
I don't know what, but as soon as you explain me the implementation of that, it starts to become apparent. Yeah, it is tangible and it's not any more an idea. Now you explain me how you would do that. What I talked about a little bit earlier on, I say be careful what you are explaining. Yeah, maybe there are aspects which are not necessary to explain because everybody agrees that you can filter water.

00:49:48:07 - 00:50:19:07
Speaker 1
So maybe this is not the cornerstone of your of your idea. So the cornerstone is that you create H2O, which is not normal water, which is, which is purest water. And then you fill in again the ions and so water and carbon and so on and create manufacture that water. And that is something different from I saw in the movie that somebody had the idea to offer individualized water.

00:50:19:14 - 00:50:56:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, that is an idea and that is public. And by the way, it cannot be patented. But when you when you have a concrete way, how you realize it, then you compact with again. But another again, you can pattern it. Okay. But be careful. Yes. When something is really in public, let's say in a in a mickey Mouse cartoon, the way the way how of rack is is lifted in some wonderful example out of the education of Edmontonians.

00:50:56:16 - 00:51:29:04
Speaker 1
And in terms of balloons and Mickey Mouse is doing that or or Donald Duck is is with his nephews is doing that then it is. Yeah, it is published. And you cannot patent that method because simply. Stone it's public it's not you. Okay. Because that cartoon shows you a technical implementation of the idea how to bring that up again on the surface of the world.

00:51:29:08 - 00:51:54:10
Speaker 1
Okay, so let's have a borderline case. Maybe, maybe it's a borderline. I'm not sure that's talk about Star Trek. Let's talk about the artificial doctor with a tricorder scanning of patients. And coming up, what's wrong with them and what they need and heating them. So, I mean, it's not I mean, you can extend on modern ideas. A lot is on a lot.

00:51:54:10 - 00:52:26:18
Speaker 1
It's not what it's there's a clear method method. There's a clear use case that could be a piece of that. So now you explain me the way how you differentiate. So you get anyhow a signal. Okay, so now explain me which kind of signal is not and what you're doing with it. And you have your package because what we see in Star Trek is obviously just an idea.

00:52:27:07 - 00:52:59:04
Speaker 1
We don't know how it works. And Gene Roddenberry, the author. Yeah, we have this. We have this beaming. Okay, yeah, this, this, this, this, this, this relocation of objects. Physically, no problem. Yeah, why not? We have two atoms, okay? We bring that to all. We we have the information. Bring the information to another place and set the user atoms from there and pull it together.

00:52:59:10 - 00:53:35:00
Speaker 1
The only problem is the Heisenberg uncertainty relation. Okay. And that tells us the Heisenberg Uncertainty relation tells us that you cannot determine the place and the and the impulse at the same time fully accurate. So once you be better and better in the you lose the information of the other. So and Gene Roddenberry invented the Heisenberg coils which are deep down in the ship.

00:53:35:04 - 00:54:02:16
Speaker 1
Okay the Heisenberg uncertainty cards and some of the at the at one of these conventions, a guy asked Dear Mr. Roddenberry, how do they work? What? Yeah. And he said, Thank you. Well, and this this is exactly for what you don't get a patent for. Well, when you can when you can explain me how it works, you really get your pattern.

00:54:03:07 - 00:54:29:01
Speaker 1
Okay, So this is why I was asking, because previously understood that I don't have to explain how the A.I. is working in this case, how the beaming is working. So I meant what I said is a I is an accepted technology. It's like a screw. You don't have to explain each and every screw as long as it is accepted technology, it's okay.

00:54:29:08 - 00:54:56:11
Speaker 1
And we we are not in doubt that I can solve the problem of identification of the parasites and and all that things which has to be done here. We are not in doubt that that could be done. And so you don't have to mention and that's not the trick. The trick here is using a laser for solving that specific problem and and shooting the parasite starter and don't killing the salesman, by the way.

00:54:57:07 - 00:55:25:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I'm really sorry to to follow up to that just one more time on this very same topic. So the air has not been accepted. Let's see. As a technology back when the Star Trek movie has been out and published. So I'll bet it's getting back then. Only an idea. Okay, we have the patent law comes from the late 19th century.

00:55:26:03 - 00:56:10:21
Speaker 1
Okay. So in Germany it was from 1870 and I guess a notorious one. That's the same. And most patent laws come from that time of industrial revolution. And nowhere is a concrete description of what techno technology is. So in terms of accepted technology or you can say when you look around you, I don't know where you are, but despite of that just look around you, what you see these colors, these chemicals, these these surf faces, this objects, whatever you see, this materials, nothing had existed 150 years before.

00:56:11:10 - 00:57:00:20
Speaker 1
That means we have an evolving techno technology term that we adapt what is accepted and work in technology continuously. And yes, you are fully right. Things which we don't understand today, and we cannot use natural forces to realize it in 2030 years that will be accepted. Yeah, why not? But I would say for a very concrete and recommendation to real life people with real life problems, I would say it is my recommendation is that you should understand your use cases and try to patent out of the out of your business model and concrete implementation of use cases.

00:57:01:02 - 00:57:25:15
Speaker 1
You find out which kind of patterns want and you don't need any Star Trek for that. I'm a huge fan of Star Trek. Let's come to the next question. Yeah, it's it's it's not all of automobiles are great. Automobiles are great. Let's come to the next question. It's from multicam. Welcome to the show, Martha. Thank you, Alex. Thank you, Alex, for this fascinating insight.

00:57:26:17 - 00:57:56:22
Speaker 1
It's interesting that American Canadian companies fight in Germany over digital patents. Yeah, And yes, I fully agree with you that these some of the digital pages for the technological part of the digital business model can be used for that. Just choosing Munich as a venue. However, there may be more reasons than than you mentioned. And I think one of the very important reasons is also that we have this injunction gap in Germany.

00:57:57:02 - 00:58:21:19
Speaker 1
So this has I admit this is more like a comment and it has nothing to do with digital patents, but that can be a very important reason why they chose Germany, that I can explain what the injunction gap is, but I don't have to thank thank you, Alex. That's that's the pity which the patent attorneys. Okay now I get.

00:58:21:20 - 00:59:00:19
Speaker 1
Yes, that could be a reason, of course. No question. No doubt about that. But we have here, the audience here is, I guess, more interested on the on the basics. And yes, it's a patent law is very complex and it is based on every country. And so, yeah, very, very specific details. But I tried to give a general a recommendation, and this general recommendation to our community is that don't start with technical thinking.

00:59:02:01 - 00:59:39:02
Speaker 1
Start with what is the cornerstone of your business and reduce cases and try to get that its own. Thanks, Martin, for your question. Let's let's go to the next one. The next question comes from Ronald Seaga. Welcome to the show. It honored. Well, thank you for this really interesting and easily digestible information. A lot of questions regarding how to start a guided process within a law authority or add to those already and how to find the actual list for each technology or environments the company is working in.

00:59:39:02 - 01:00:28:23
Speaker 1
Thank you. Okay, so first of all, ask the person. Okay, so typically that helps you. Maybe you know that after 18 months you have access. So the pattern is published. So you you should simply ask that guy for some examples of the work. In addition, you can make your own retrieval, so you just go into the database as Sportsnet or whatever and and look for fault for yours specific technology or idea.

01:00:29:13 - 01:01:04:05
Speaker 1
And so and look for the guys who who patent but yeah the the representation the representative so you do find experts also and linked and so I, I think that's a very good way so when you make for example when you check what my article who is a patent attorney, is saying and publishing via LinkedIn, you can find out whether he's an expert in that field.

01:01:04:05 - 01:01:29:24
Speaker 1
And so simply because he is discussing that and he is publishing on that issues. So it's the same procedure as you would try to find out who's a who's expert in a certain research field. Okay. So somebody who is not working there is somebody who is not publishing, there is not speaking. There is most likely not really an expert in that case.

01:01:29:24 - 01:01:53:01
Speaker 1
Thank you. The second question. So there are more than just one authorities, people with knowledge out there and to find the best one for a specific business model, it's like it's like to find a needle in the hay. And when you want to think to live science, there are so many self designated persons out there. Everyone is a specialist.

01:01:53:01 - 01:02:17:24
Speaker 1
Is there any trust that sort of party where to find a contact who will be trustable for people? They are who they're new to the law authority business or to the IP business? Is that IP also I to know I have a strong attached to say go to the guys who started my program in Strasburg. But I don't say that.

01:02:18:24 - 01:02:55:01
Speaker 1
What I'm saying is it could make sense that for example the office where this guy works so typical is you need a combination. Yeah, you would need a guy who is who has a certain experience in life science and also you need somebody who understands the digital components of it. Yeah, and a very good combination is when you have that both resources example in one office or even in one person.

01:02:56:01 - 01:03:31:21
Speaker 1
So and you again, you'll find, you'll find that out of the patents which are already published and, and you can check that. And I'm absolutely sure that when you talk with that partner, Tony, after a 50 minutes, you know, whether this guy is understanding you and I mean really and also from an from an emotional point of view, understanding you and can help you or you are talking with windmills and then I would stop it.

01:03:32:17 - 01:04:03:00
Speaker 1
Thank you for that and flip it on to somebody. Yeah, well, at the end, you need somebody who is fighting for you. Yeah, he's really he has to be a certainty. He needs a certain passion for for that. And this person should fall in law to a certain extent to your idea, should have to fight for it, that you both get that patent and and it is a fight.

01:04:03:04 - 01:04:28:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, I don't say that it is easy. I never said that. I don't say it's not complex and all the things and so you need really a guy who is with you and wants that this becomes a success for you both. And then I would say you have somebody which, which, which you can work with. As I said, I think it's it's very easy to find the specialist on the every second stone.

01:04:28:15 - 01:04:49:08
Speaker 1
But a lot of side specialists maybe is is a digital business model illiterates and to find those both of both of the topics in one person or at least a one IP or will be hard to find both. Yeah we will we will take a look and thank you.

01:04:49:20 - 01:05:11:14
Speaker 2
I can also relate to that from my experience when I was working. So for Oxford University Innovation, we had a number of patent veterans read and listed a number of different cases across disciplines and you could really see huge quality differences in kind of who was better and who was maybe not good and who was really, really bad.

01:05:11:14 - 01:05:36:16
Speaker 2
And I think one piece of advice that Professor Whittlesey gave about looking into what kind of pattern someone has already written, and sometimes also just looking through the publicly available information, how they were actually fighting this case and how many applications were actually granted or rejected in the end can also give you a little bit of an indication how experienced these people are in their respective you.

01:05:37:02 - 01:06:14:08
Speaker 1
Thinking this was exactly not what I want to say. Okay, I, I agree. And to a certain extent that can be an indicator of the granting rate, but take into account that it is not always the objective of getting a patent granted. So it is an absolute normal legal strategy to file a patent for something where you know that this won't be ever patented for what reason?

01:06:14:15 - 01:06:41:09
Speaker 1
But there is a patent application that is published and that means nobody else could get that patent. No where on that planet. Yeah. So it can be or it is a really a strategy to get, for example, of freedom to operate for something very specific that you say, okay, if file it and we make sure that it is in the database and every time and we make very clear on the title on everything, it will be found.

01:06:41:19 - 01:07:12:21
Speaker 1
And it is our the documentation that whoever will try to get the patent, we already published it and so it can't be new. Yeah, and this is one of the provisions to get up to get a patent. So that I just want to mention that again that things become complex. Yeah, I just want to mention that granting rate for another of the reasons true is not that cornerstone.

01:07:12:22 - 01:07:37:24
Speaker 1
It is a hit. Of course, when a guy never get the patent granted. Yes, a problem anyway. But I should get a little bit careful with that because sometimes the brand attorneys are not the ones who decide that they are. Trust the instrument to realize a certain strategy from their clients. Okay. So just to mention, to be fair.

01:07:39:01 - 01:08:00:07
Speaker 1
Thank you. Yeah, I think it's the entrepreneurs job to find the needle in the haystack and I completely agree. I mean, whenever I hear the term attorney, people should be aware of that. The needs to find a man or a woman also don't to women not creating fighting who really fights for their clients and not against their clients.

01:08:01:11 - 01:08:33:06
Speaker 1
Let's go to the next question. It's from Marco Kaufmann. Marcos, welcome to the show. Thank you very much for for the very insightful talk. I guess from my point of view, we have a little bit of experience on business models and innovation in manufacturing, which is a very traditional sector and what is absolutely gobsmacking is the lack of understanding, as you say, of what business models are to begin with.

01:08:34:00 - 01:09:04:13
Speaker 1
But almost to the lack of understanding of what IP really means and how to protect it and to profit from it. So I guess so I would like to to to ask if you have any suggestions in any sites regarding how to, to develop some of these practical knowledge around IP protection for digital business models. And also, how would you go about building some of that knowledge into the curriculum for multiple disciplines?

01:09:05:13 - 01:09:32:23
Speaker 1
You know, people in social sciences, people in computer science and engineering need to know more about these topics in order for us as an overall society to benefit from it. Okay. Thank you for for asking that questions. I did not pay for that, but that's really great because that gives me the opportunity to starting my advertisement. Okay, First of all, you see the logo.

01:09:34:12 - 01:10:12:03
Speaker 1
There is this IP business Academy which is active on on the Internet. It's a website from my university, University of Strasbourg, and also it's on LinkedIn, very active IP business Academy, and there are tons of material available case studies, teaching material, lectures, everything free of charge. Okay. And in addition, of course, you can, you can walk into one of my certificate courses, but that costs money.

01:10:12:15 - 01:10:44:10
Speaker 1
But what we also offer is a free of charge training program from a public funded where we explain how to create the digital objects to make them tangible. And so I can only recommend to you get in touch with me via LinkedIn, for example, and we can organize such a free of charge training program. That's great. Thank you very much.

01:10:44:22 - 01:11:07:12
Speaker 1
Welcome. That's good to hear. So thanks for the commercial for. That's what this meant. We do whatever we can to improve the knowledge of that issue. That's that's a very good idea. That's very good. At the end of it, posted links to your LinkedIn profile in the description of the podcast later on. So you should not be surprised when some people reach out to you.

01:11:07:23 - 01:11:38:01
Speaker 1
Let's let's go to the next question. It's Thomas Lutz from us. Welcome to the show. Yeah, thank you. So maybe I missed it earlier and forgive me if I did, but what are actually the best examples of already patented and accepted business models? Because I did a quick search for patterns of business models and a lot of them seem either to be never accepted or later retracted because the applicants didn't pay the fees actually.

01:11:38:08 - 01:12:02:18
Speaker 1
So what are some really great examples where you could look at and see how they did it, how they described it? That would be interesting. Thank you. Are You missed more or less the whole show right? I know. And I really tried to explain that it is not a good idea to describe a business model for patterning it.

01:12:02:19 - 01:12:37:10
Speaker 1
I never said it. So maybe that's the that's the first practice. Okay. No, that doesn't work. First of all, is the digital implementation of the, let's say, technical issues, which makes this a business model unique. That is what your patent and I can tell you, you won't find that when you look for it in terms of I can read the patent and I understand the use case, I can show you patterns.

01:12:37:19 - 01:13:17:06
Speaker 1
And we do that, for example, for gamification from from Nike. Okay, a wonderful use case. And so gamification means that you should visual you motivate people to have a challenge with each other and that to you you can have an exchange. And if you get uncertain awards and the whole thing, the whole game ification issue is patterned by Nike.

01:13:17:20 - 01:13:45:15
Speaker 1
So of running. Yeah, when you make gamification something else you can partnered again. But then the implementation of that kind of gamification, what I said is you can observe the pattern. So first all, you can download some of my case studies, okay? And they are there is described so from the fleet management from Hilty or one of the newest from Ping and Good Doctor.

01:13:45:24 - 01:14:19:20
Speaker 1
The digital the digital patient journey that so that's fascinating but pain and good doctor is doing there and we described that and publish it and just read that then take the examples. Okay And then read the pattern. After you understood the case, the business case. But the business model, you will understand why this pattern protects cornerstone of this business model.

01:14:19:20 - 01:14:42:08
Speaker 1
But when I show you the and you don't know the business case or the use case, it's just a yeah, it's a pattern like thousands others to that that's the trick, so to speak. A digital pattern can only be analyzed and understood typically, once you understand already the business case, the standalone, it's yeah, it's a technical problem, but it's also technical issue.

01:14:42:16 - 01:15:13:02
Speaker 1
And some time it takes really time to explain people why it this specific technical issue protects and use case. Yeah because it's this it's not a 1 to 1 so you don't describe the use case per say. Typically what you are doing is you find out what other tech, what other tricks the issue which has to be solved and that is pattern.

01:15:13:03 - 01:15:59:17
Speaker 1
But this the keyhole. Okay, thanks for explaining. Welcome. I have a question. You mentioned the gamification that Nike filed, the patent in gamification of running, if you understood it right. So does that practically mean I mean, I love running so and a lot of computer games and sometimes to think why not put out an app on the market that gives three parts to run us which basically is a sort of gamification would that mean if if I pursue such an idea that I should expect if in case the idea works well and delivers money that Nike one day might knock on my door and say, What about a license?

01:16:00:08 - 01:16:33:23
Speaker 1
Would you like I seem the game. I would. I would assume that just say shoot it in close. Okay. Yes, you should expect that. And for an example, yeah, let us assume you want to improve and running shoe. Okay. You would never start with the idea to put an sensor in it and to use that data. Then for and competition with others.

01:16:34:14 - 01:17:12:19
Speaker 1
Never ever this is maybe even the shoe is not that's perfect with. The sense of that it would be without the sensor. Okay so you make the shoe not better, but this sentence or gives you data for the use case of gamification. So that's a wonderful example that you would never come to the idea of putting and sensor into a shoe as long as you just want to improve shoes, but as long as as soon as you start to think about a use case, use you.

01:17:12:20 - 01:17:40:09
Speaker 1
You understand that this is first an invention which can be patents and second, that it opens you the accessibility of an gamification use case. That's exactly what I'm saying. But as long as somebody just about running shoes for what should then integrate and sensor it, I have the data. Data is that it is their training data. It's everything.

01:17:40:09 - 01:18:09:18
Speaker 1
I mean, Runtastic and it's again, when you think about the training, it's the shoe in New York. The show is not improved by improving your training, but it's again, the same next use case. Okay, that's true. So basically, what does that mean now for all startup companies here, here in Europe? I think many of them are just just working on things, it sounds to me.

01:18:09:18 - 01:18:42:12
Speaker 1
What what would your advice be to them at this point? What what's the what's the critical thing to suit that they should start looking at when it comes to IP rights? So the first and most important thing is thinking about use cases, business model, business models, User churn is customer journeys. You should not start with technology. When you think about patterns, that's not helpful.

01:18:42:12 - 01:19:12:06
Speaker 1
That's the first thing. The second thing is as soon as possible, but it can't be too early. Think about patterns. So try to understand what's going out there. Don't don't assume you are the first one. Now, that's that's the most important understanding. And this is not bad. Yeah. The other way around. This is wonderful because that means somebody made already the work to describe that.

01:19:12:06 - 01:19:43:10
Speaker 1
Maybe it is granted that, maybe not whatever, but you will find a way how your business model implementation is already described. Okay. And then start to work. Use your creativity to use your imagination to improve that, to make it better, to make the use case better, to make the customer experience better, to make the to make, to create higher value.

01:19:43:17 - 01:20:02:06
Speaker 1
And that will lead you to a really good business model. And that's the the general recommendation. Yeah. We have another question coming in from the audience. It's coming from Kiera Bearcats. Welcome to the show. Kiera. Hi there. Do you hear me? Yes, yes, welcome.

01:20:03:06 - 01:20:30:21
Speaker 2
Thanks. It was a great, great, great talk. Very important for us to be our stand up. And actually, I'm not going to tell you right now, but who would I go to? Because, you know, I talk to so many people and all always I got the answer. No, no, no. You are software as a service business. You are idiots, not patentable.

01:20:30:21 - 01:20:53:01
Speaker 2
So now I have that idea, and I learned a lot. I know exactly that. It's really new thing. It's a new customer experience and a better one. So what would be my next step to look for? For. For. For what an attorney Austria or or should I contact you or how.

01:20:53:01 - 01:21:19:00
Speaker 1
Do I continue? Okay. So simply because I would like that this is finished sooner or later. Yeah. Write me an email. Okay. Okay. I will. I will try to take care. My first reaction as a teacher is you should get informed. So that means we could, for example, do for you or your company this free of charge education part.

01:21:19:10 - 01:21:24:15
Speaker 1
I can send material and of course we will find a path not only for you.

01:21:25:09 - 01:21:27:13
Speaker 2
Great, Great. Thanks a lot.

01:21:27:21 - 01:21:55:17
Speaker 1
Welcome. You're welcome. It's job, Professor Woods. Thank you very much for your time. And I don't want you to start with I have I have so much, so much more questions in my mind. But I think that probably also a lot of people would like to speak to you after after 5:30 p.m. or are you could to go for another half hour?

01:21:56:00 - 01:22:22:11
Speaker 1
No, no problem. I'm sitting here very well. Okay. Okay. Then I come up with my questions. Let's let's go a little bit back to the to the to that situation with the United States and China. It sounds to me that they are further advanced in their thinking of filing digital patents than the Europeans. How how how far advanced are they really?

01:22:22:14 - 01:22:59:19
Speaker 1
How how active are the Internet fields? Oh, okay. So the point is, we should have to define advancement. Okay. What means advanced? It is a fact that in the United States and in Asia, there is not that kind of of engineering and scientific background and kind of thinking of mindset when it comes to IP. Okay. So you can say you can say it in that way.

01:22:59:19 - 01:23:42:00
Speaker 1
They are much more relaxed on that in terms of I would say they are the this, this. But when you talk to some typical Austrian or German engineer and it comes to patent two patents that you will hear that you are only rocket scientists and only really important breakthrough can become a patent. Okay, so like Mr. Bosch, Mr. Siemens, Mr. Daimler that are the people received patents because of their groundbreaking inventions.

01:23:42:16 - 01:24:11:19
Speaker 1
So and that's that's a kind of mindset. Okay, So that means a patent is a kind of inventor award. Yeah. And unfortunately to a certain extent, what we do at the EPO is that with this inventor of the year, we even foster that. Yeah, but from a U.S. perspective and also for many Asian countries, it is a legal tool.

01:24:12:03 - 01:24:41:10
Speaker 1
This is business. Yeah. And Like for many things, you have to you have a certain triviality barrier. Okay. So you can say all the simple business models already done. So you need a little bit more sophisticated one to be successful. So you have in many areas you have for certain trivial anti barriers which is there. But once you are beyond that, you can get your papers.

01:24:41:20 - 01:25:15:00
Speaker 1
The question is which one do you want to have and who you want to forbid something and and how deep your pockets and all the questions. But not that you have to be a rocket science engineer. That's and so it is simply that they have a different perspective on that legal instrument. First and second. Second. Especially for the US guys, issues are a cornerstone of making business.

01:25:15:00 - 01:26:03:14
Speaker 1
That's sometimes for for European people. That is strange that so even when you have a negotiation with different U.S. business guy, typically the attorney is sitting next to him. So so having a legal making business is to a certain extent always having a legal issue. Yeah. So that's not the way we think about that. So typically Europeans say, yeah, we have that legal framework and and now let's make so as separate separated area, so to speak And the next thing is that that U.S. guys and and Asians have a strong asset orientation especially U.S. that means they think in assets.

01:26:03:15 - 01:26:37:20
Speaker 1
So this patent has to make money because it's an asset. Asset means a productive property. So where's the productive right. How can that thing be productive? And you come and start with some licensing thinking or whatever, but it's an asset and it's not it's not an award for the inventor. Yeah. For who made a rocket science invention. So and finally and that's around the clock true that not the patent law has changed.

01:26:38:01 - 01:27:10:02
Speaker 1
Yeah because of the digital payments what has changed is that different people using the patent law in different ways, that means not the engineer who is proud that his machine works, now wants a patent for the working mechanism of that machine on which she worked for years. Now old diesel, now a software guy things in a totally different way.

01:27:10:21 - 01:27:52:06
Speaker 1
So the coding what we would call the production. Yeah. Or the to make really the thing happen it's pouring the full rework typically. So what is fascinating thrilling where is the intelligence in it is the is the architecture of a solution is the way how that could be implemented so and so they think on a completely different abstract way and they patented exactly that so they look on the world because they are they they they are used that the world for them is infrastructure.

01:27:52:18 - 01:28:16:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. So that a computer so they don't care about computers. That's just a machine. Okay. I'm looking for the architecture of my solution. So this is a totally different way of thinking compared to our Iot thinking. So I have a physical object, and then I bring it into the clouds. Yeah. This is Iot thinking from. From the physical world up in the clouds.

01:28:17:03 - 01:28:56:01
Speaker 1
And this guy's thinking exactly the opposite. They live in the clouds and all what is necessary to realize and use cases infrastructure. So look at the patent portfolio from. From Spotify. Yeah, but you won't find their patterns about loudspeakers how to make sound or that that's infrastructure. It is there they have patterns on the question what what part of a song should I present to Christian that you really like that Psalm?

01:28:56:22 - 01:29:26:23
Speaker 1
Not just which song, Which part of the song is critical for Christian that he will like it. So that's a wonderful pattern and then that doesn't care. How you listening to that, which kind of loudspeakers of earphones, I don't care. So and the opposite is Sonos. Sonos is thinking from loudspeakers and to bring that loudspeakers into the cloud, that is, I know it's a U.S. based company, but that's European thinking.

01:29:26:23 - 01:29:56:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. So and when you when you are natural born in the cloud. Yeah. You, you write different patents and you use the patent on a totally different way. Like you make software, you understand the concepts, the architecture, the implementation that's in the rest is infrastructure, like the air for the cell car X look they carry. I think we have to change our mindset a little bit, shifting our mindset more to sort of thinking of the United States.

01:29:56:05 - 01:30:20:11
Speaker 1
I think China, China was very successful in that and I was very off of thinking about what why is Tesla, for example, what makes Tesla so bad? You ever compared to the German carmakers? Very often I hear the argument Tesla is producing cars, Volkswagen is producing cars. Volkswagen, I think it's worth 80 billion or something right now if you got it right.

01:30:20:11 - 01:30:48:03
Speaker 1
And Tesla no for 300 billion. So I think what you said Europe is product thinking and we're putting products together. We're producing products, whereas the Americans more into the idea of world use case world business world defined defined very nicely as a cloud called thinking maybe the value of is the patents, the files and the data to generate.

01:30:48:15 - 01:31:07:21
Speaker 1
And this opens up a new range of ideas how to do business. Because basically when you look at the patent as an asset, not a surprise. There are so many ways to make money if that one thing is to put it into reality as a company. But this is very expensive. But the other thing it that you mentioned is licensing.

01:31:07:21 - 01:31:35:08
Speaker 1
And it looks like the Americans probably going into that direction. Do you see a similar. Yeah, of course. What I said with the different ways of thinking. So bottom up or top down. Yeah, but can you see exactly between it's exactly the difference between what Tesla is doing and what the typical German car manufacturers doing or are doing.

01:31:36:12 - 01:32:03:03
Speaker 1
What we see in Germany is that we start with a car and then we ask the question, how can that car goes into the Internet? Okay, this is I thinking, okay, there you have the physical object, then you have the layer of sensors and actuators, then you have the layer of communication, then you have the layer of analytics and you end up with the layer of services.

01:32:03:03 - 01:32:40:17
Speaker 1
So but it starts with the, you know, a long time. It's not that long time that for a typically European engineer, the question which kind of business model runs your company was to a certain extent unethical or not discussable. Well, what does that means? Business model. So I'm an engineer. I'm creating a wonderful product. It's fascinating. It's it's it's world class.

01:32:41:00 - 01:33:06:03
Speaker 1
And all what I'm doing is giving that to a third party to my customer. And my customer gives me money for that. We ask the issue with the business model. I don't understand that. And it's it's not that long ago that when you go to, let's say, typical European engineering company and talk to the CTO or CEO and you talk about business models, that was not discussable.

01:33:06:12 - 01:33:38:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. And even the the reason why should we talk that so and and what we learned with the digital transformation is that one of the cornerstone is how to make a smart business model around your idea and around your product. And then you talk, you can go to me and ask 300 engineers, Are you really sure that people want to buy washing machines?

01:33:39:06 - 01:34:06:11
Speaker 1
I don't believe that. I accept that. Your shop depends on the fact that people are buying washing machines. But aren't you? You don't think that once somebody sneaks around the corner and gives the people a new deal? I don't know which kind of deal, but at the end it fulfills the need of having clothes in my in my room, in my in my carpet.

01:34:07:01 - 01:34:36:20
Speaker 1
And once this comes you can go if your washing machines, whatever you want, because people don't want to buy washing machines that want to have been close. So and we saw that in so many cases that now people start CEO, CTO start to become nervous. And this is exactly what we can learn from testing. They don't want to build a car at the corner store.

01:34:37:14 - 01:35:02:10
Speaker 1
So what they are looking for is how can we create use cases to come from A to B and using a car for that? But they are totally open to the question how could we realize use cases? And yes to a certain extent we need something which can drive. So yeah, but it is infrastructure for realizing use cases and once you're thinking that way.

01:35:02:15 - 01:35:16:13
Speaker 1
You come to a multitude of solutions and only a few of them have this Iot logic. Yeah, yeah. And that's one of the reasons why we need that big screen in the car.

01:35:17:10 - 01:35:53:13
Speaker 2
Yeah, and that's a question because sort of the whole discussion of me to think about is there actually a place for trade secrets in digital companies or digital innovation companies? Because, you know, you have always been saying, well, if you can keep it a secret, if someone can't really easily sort of reverse engineer your product, then it's better to keep it secret, because otherwise if you reveal it by a patent, then there is a risk that they could sort of find their way around and maybe sort of get your business in there.

01:35:53:13 - 01:36:11:10
Speaker 2
So if we think about these business models now and if we think that, okay, we've got now our trade secrets, but someone else comes up with a similar idea but just puts a patent on, it's then it could well be that suddenly from today to tomorrow my IP strategy will keep it a secret, which was actually pretty stupid in the end.

01:36:12:24 - 01:37:01:00
Speaker 1
Now, that's a very general question, and there is no general. Okay, that's the typical lawyer recommendation. It depends. So my learning over the last years was that people underestimate, they overestimate the effort getting patents, and they dramatically underestimate the effort to keep a secret Secret. Yeah. That means especially actually when you grow, that's extremely difficult. So I've worked, for example, with apples and till today that, Chinese are not able to produce a commercial gambling.

01:37:01:23 - 01:37:42:08
Speaker 1
That's a fact. Even when Apples is manufacturing the A320 in China. So I would say they did that shot very well. What means proliferation or knowledge so far. But it is a huge effort to make sure that every worker only knows what this worker has to know and and so on. Yeah. So what I want to say is secrets, trade secrets are yes is a very common tool, but it is very complex.

01:37:42:18 - 01:38:12:06
Speaker 1
It is hard to work to manage that once you do it right. It is it is very good. Yeah. But it is first of all, not for very bad or nearly not enforceable. So when somebody is able to copy you, you are copied. On the other hand, the round coming from a business perspective, having an enforceable patent. Yeah.

01:38:12:18 - 01:38:49:02
Speaker 1
Which describes not an individual single technic technological solution which describes a business model and the access to a business model or business or use case. This one thing. Okay use cases typically from the customer, otherwise it wouldn't be a use case and the customer are teached they learn something how to do something. Okay. For example, for a long time it was normal to do this this thing.

01:38:49:02 - 01:39:22:21
Speaker 1
Okay, slide to open. Yeah. To your thumb. And you describe a certain certain trajectory on the screen of your mobile phone or your smartphone to open the smartphone to, to, to switch the status. So that was one of the most valuable patents on planet. Why not? Because it is rocket science. Because the people were trained. They were expecting that this happens.

01:39:22:21 - 01:39:51:04
Speaker 1
That's the reason why Samsung infringed. It's not because Samsung is stupid or they are not clever to bypass or whatever. No, the customers forced them. Okay. We call that a dominant design. So terms with the power coined that terminology and when you use case becomes the dominant design for certain user group and you have partner that has a neutrality.

01:39:51:04 - 01:40:22:17
Speaker 1
So people think when you're thinking that way. So first of all, a product is not an object. A product is a bundle of argumentation. And this bundle of argumentation fits with the expectations of your customers. So then you then are able to offer use cases which train, which teach your customers. And this and the implementation of this use cases is patent protected and the argumentation is are unique and patent protected.

01:40:24:00 - 01:41:12:16
Speaker 1
That's where you want to be. And that's yeah, one of our case studies is the, the Thermomix and whether you like it or not, but it has a reason that a relatively small a comparable small company like for Mac dominates the market of these smart kitchen machines and this is not that can vote Bosch these huge companies are stupid no it is simply that the Thermomix and the way how the seven weeks works and the use cases which are realized are the dominant design how to do it, and that this pattern that and that it cannot be simply bypassed by others because customers expect this and these expect that you can say you patent customer

01:41:12:16 - 01:41:56:18
Speaker 1
expectation or the realization of the customer expectation that you teach the customers. And this is a sustainable competitive advantage and I would invest in that. We have another question from from Sharma. Come on, we'll come back. Yeah. Thanks again, Christian and things. Alex So the other side would be freedom to to operate and you just showed on. Well if you have a concept and in the use case the user journey is a for first what you should then do is to actually think about patents and which first of course means freedom to operate.

01:41:57:02 - 01:42:29:01
Speaker 1
And then I was surprised you said, well, if I find that for this very use case that I had in mind, there are six different patterns in place that in somehow would infringe my, my, my business idea that this was would actually not be a problem in terms of at least you you know now it had to the infringing infringements might be there but the question would be is the general tactic or how to approach it if they are there.

01:42:29:01 - 01:43:01:18
Speaker 1
There are many patterns that could be infringed. And how do you differentiate? How do you design in order to not infringe the patterns and still can actually pursue with your BCI business idea and without having to pay like the money of a bully that that just has a pendant like the IBM Airbnb case. Yeah, especially Evan Bishop. Should have been a little bit more careful too.

01:43:03:13 - 01:43:34:12
Speaker 1
Okay So again, it's a huge question. Okay. Okay. So make me the question smaller, because if you're talking about ABN and IBM and you say Airbnb was not careful, would Airbnb have had a chance ten years ago in order to not infringe the IBM patents like for of course the typical you have you have to your shoes. Once you make your homework, then you choose whether you want to infringe or not.

01:43:35:13 - 01:44:12:21
Speaker 1
And I would say the assumption is that behind a certain business logic, behind a certain business mechanics, like offering individualized advertisements on a on a business platform, you are some chance should be that this is patented. Now that's that's what I what I really tried to convey here that as long when you do something and you can put digital on it yeah your assumption should be this patent and that and then you start to work.

01:44:13:11 - 01:44:52:11
Speaker 1
That's the point. And you have you need help of course. Yeah. This is not it is not that that you you can everything you need an optics consultant you need somebody who helps you at the sales department over the sales or you need an R&D department and R&D help maybe. And so you should have help in the IP world and you need and your investors should know that, that this is a cornerstone of a strategy.

01:44:52:24 - 01:45:29:09
Speaker 1
And so we my own my experience is that even in big deals, yeah, we had such a deal two years ago with the automotive industry if big deal it was a multi hundred million dollar deal. So and the the so you would expect that they have enough money on both sides to pay the best lawyers and the best accounting experts.

01:45:30:07 - 01:46:11:10
Speaker 1
It turns out that all these guys over so over to overseas the the major problem that the product why that company was bought was not licensed. It's an infringing product and they have never tried it was a connectivity product. Okay. And they have never tried to get a license for it. Yeah. So what I'm saying that maybe the one had no compliance IP compliance and the other had no due diligence, no IP due diligence.

01:46:11:21 - 01:46:37:02
Speaker 1
And what I'm saying is the more intangible, the more digital the things become, the more important is it to make the whole work on the IP side. But unfortunately what we see out there is that the practice is the opposite. Yeah, that people think the digital things have nothing to do with IP like in the open source discussion some minutes ago.

01:46:37:16 - 01:47:16:01
Speaker 1
So my recommendation is that investors startups should make their homework, should look for support to make sure that on the IP side things are done and safe and working despite policies with assumptions which are based on misunderstanding and especially not know education. So you wouldn't do your texts on your own for your company because it's too complex typically.

01:47:16:22 - 01:47:52:11
Speaker 1
Why should you do your IP work on your own when you have no education on that? That's all what I'm saying. Okay, thanks. Okay. So it's it's hard for to to keep my children quiet. So it's it's like a bomb. Okay. And so the the the pressure. Yeah. It becomes higher every minute I 40 on Sunday I have to I have to assume that sooner or later this bomb explodes there.

01:47:52:21 - 01:48:14:22
Speaker 1
And so I would like to stop here. Maybe when there is an interest we can we can do it. I don't know of a year or a year later again, or something like that, but it would be a great thing. I think there are many, many things to discuss, really, like the points you made about different mindsets, and I think we have to implement it better in Europe.

01:48:15:06 - 01:48:37:19
Speaker 1
I would like to thank you very, very much for your time and extending the timeframe. We have said for half an hour. It's really interesting to listening to you and I can recommend everybody go to any seminar webinar of Professor Watson to learn more. Thank you very much, Astrid, for putting that together and to have you on the team.

01:48:37:19 - 01:48:44:08
Speaker 1
It's great, great help and thanks also to everybody who was listening. Have a great evening.

01:48:45:10 - 01:48:45:22
Speaker 2
Thank you.

01:48:46:04 - 01:48:54:22
Speaker 1
Thank you. Bye bye bye. Thanks for listening. Please please share the podcast and make sure you've subscribed. Have a great day.