#37: Ana Trbovich - Peer-to-Peer Energy Trading

In this podcast episode, we will discuss how blockchain technology is utilized in the energy sector beyond the well-known utility of a payments system, her experiences in entrepreneurship and innovation, including start-up life in Berlin.

Ana Trbovich is the Grid Singularity co-founder & COO and Vice-Chair of the Energy Web Foundation. She serves on UNECE Carbon Neutrality and DENA SET Hub Advisory Boards, and previously acted as an independent board member at the European Institute for Innovation and Technology (EIT), Axa, and the Belgrade Philharmonic, among others. She teaches Entrepreneurship at FEFA, a leading business school in Belgrade, Serbia, where she also served as Dean from 2012 to 2015. She has consulted on good governance, competitiveness, and innovation policy for international organizations, including the EU and the World Bank.

Link to the Video of the Recording:
YouTube

Speaker:
Ana Trbovich
Astrid Woollard
Christian Soschner

Organizations:
CS Life Science Invest
Grid Singularity
Scytale Ventures


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Transcript

Blockchain in Energy: Grid Singularity, Energy Web, and the Big Vision

Astrid Woollard 0:00

So, welcome to the Alice GTG podcast. Today we're tackling yet another blockchain topic. We took off last time with applications of blockchain technology and life science industry and are moving on today to applications in the energy industry. One of the leading pioneers in this space is Grid Singularity. And the Grid Singularity Energy Exchange Engine, D3A, has developed as an interface and an open source code base to model, simulate, optimize, and download and deploy interconnected grid aware energy markets. Grid Singularity has been proclaimed the world tech pioneer by the World Economic Forum and is also known as a co-founder of the Energy Web Foundation that gathers leading energy corporations globally together. Today we're very fortunate to have Dr. Anna Tribovich with us, who is a grid singularity co-founder and a CEO. She is also a co-founder and vice chair of the Energy Web Foundation. She serves at the UN ECE Carbon Neutrality and DENA SETHUP Advisory Board, and previously as a member of the European Institute for Innovation and Technology. She teaches innovation and apprenticeship and has consulted on good governance, competitiveness, and innovation policy for international organizations, including the EU and the World Bank. Thank you very much for being here, Anna. Welcome.

Ana Trbovich 1:17

Thank you for inviting me.

Why Start a Blockchain Energy Company Before the Market Was Ready?

Astrid Woollard 1:18

So maybe we can start off, you know, by telling you telling us so what was it like to start up Griffith Singularity six years ago where there was still, you know, a very sort of rather small uh blockchain ecosystem compared to today. So how did you actually get into this space and what is sort of the issue that your company is trying to solve?

The Hard Choice: Building an Industry Foundation Instead of Chasing Hype

Ana Trbovich 1:38

Yes, uh I'm not sure we're allowed to call ourselves a startup anymore, um, although the culture is certainly still there and it's still uh you know a sprint and a marathon at the same time, which is uh usually the case when you're in deep tech innovation, which is you know the topic that your podcast uh uh covers six years ago. So um just like today, but even more so, we felt that we were really at the forefront. Um, it was an exploration, uh an adventure, uh most engaging, thrilling, uh scary, uh courageous, uh, but also very fulfilling. Um we had become aware very, very early on of the potential impact that this new or rediscovered technology called blockchain could have in an energy industry that has innovated very little uh over time, and that was facing a challenge due to increasing complexity of the system and also the the uh now finally you know uh no longer denied, or at least in mainstream, uh climate change uh challenge. Uh, we saw how this uh technology could work with others uh to be part of the solution. Uh, and uh we saw a number of potential business models. In fact, uh some of our first presentations were about uh various applications that could be built using blockchain uh mainly or in part. Uh, and it was a good problem that we had, which is uh which one do we focus on? Uh and uh we chose the hard way, uh which is uh to start with a foundation to build a common uh shared technology standard for the industry. And therefore, what we proceeded to do was rather uncommon for a startup, uh, which is to establish a nonprofit organization, an international organization, and certainly the uh still currently the leading uh organization in the energy industry and likely the only one that has a uh a very substantial technology that is uh co-developed and shared, uh, unlike others that are uh important uh but uh really stay at the uh discussion policy proposal level. This is one organization where uh the energy industry worldwide uh worldwide contributed to one shared uh platform. And as such, it's it's an example that's been uh used as a role model for some other industries uh who have since uh engaged in similar consortia, if you wish. Um and because it was such an early stage innovation and in some ways still is, uh, companies that are normally uh competitors uh are very much working together.

Is Grid Singularity’s Local Energy Exchange Really Blockchain-Based?

Astrid Woollard 4:55

Uh I was wondering, is your product, the local energy exchange at Grid Singularity, is this actually blockchain-based?

How Blockchain Creates Trust, Transparency, and Fair Access in Energy

Blockchain, Energy Democracy, and the Energy Web Foundation Explained

Ana Trbovich 5:01

Uh uh in part, yes. And and this is very important to acknowledge, which is uh that blockchain is a part of uh a solution, a very important one that has uh a critical functionality, in my opinion, in that it uh it embeddies uh trust in a way that um uh you are sure that no single company has the um a special market access, uh, but that all meet uh compete at an equal level. And when I say all, I mean uh you as an individual uh being able to enjoy uh very similar rights to a large energy trader. And that is something uh that is very new, uh, which is why uh it took a lot of education. And in the early years, uh we probably spent as much time educating uh the energy industry about what blockchain does, uh, and and and as much time in um uh co-designing uh different applications of that technology. Uh, it really depends on the applications. So, for example, in one that has been commercially available for a while now, which is tracking um renewable uh energy, issuing trading certificates, uh, blockchain is a major part because it is uh it is provenance that is the key aspect of that particular application, where instead of having physical uh uh checks uh by qualified controllers, uh you instead have um you know real-time uh tracking and real-time trading, you do not have double accounting, you do not have fraud. So that one application is one where blockchain plays a major role. And in others, it is part of the implementation where you want to add functionality that is important to you. So, in case of our current product, which is the essentially the energy exchange, uh, we will rely on blockchain for transparency and for automation of some services and also interoperability so that when the energy industry becomes comfortable, that people can also uh pay in other ways uh that you can easily include an additional efficiency in the system. So it will be uh a final implementation of our application. So, no, it does not require blockchain, but yes, uh blockchain adds a lot of value to it.

Christian Soschner 7:46

I still try to figure out how these bits and pieces are working together. So, on one hand, there is this blockchain technology, um, which I think is uh very interesting how you implement that, and congratulations to your great job to keep a startup running for over six years. Uh statistics say that most of the startups fail in the first years and only 10% survive. So you are one of the survivors and uh probably still have conserved the spirit in the startup world. I just try to bring the bits and pieces uh together in my mind. So, on one hand, you have the blockchain technology, on the other hand, you try democratizing energy trading. Uh, and then I heard this term, uh, I have written it down, uh, energy web foundation. So, what I try to figure out in my mind is how do these bits and pieces play together in the industry and uh where is your position in that?

Two Startups in One: Grid Singularity vs. Energy Web Foundation

The Real Barrier to Peer-to-Peer Energy Trading: Regulation

Ana Trbovich 8:32

Yes, um, so when we were starting out, uh, we realized that you need a foundation uh for the house uh because we're all um experienced uh co-founders, uh, and it really is a wonderful team with uh uh blockchain pioneers um uh who at the time were when we first met, uh, were about to establish Ethereum, uh, which is um uh probably the most famous blockchain uh project that is more than a currency, uh, and uh and has a number of other um very important functionalities, as we as we all know by now. It's almost a household name. Um and uh people who have experience from the energy industry, um uh corporate governance, good governance policy. Um, and um and this is why we chose this uh road uh last traveled. Uh at the time the ICOs were very popular. You know, we had the option to publish a white paper uh that you know would have been well researched uh and um and it was you know uh at the time and um and easily fundraise a significant sum. Uh however, what we chose to do instead is partner with a famous uh uh nonprofit institute from the US uh with reputation in clean tech industry and go through the more uh traditional, more difficult uh fundraising of uh talking to energy corporations globally. Uh so in the end, it is uh probably very likely that we raise significantly less than we would have with an ICO. Um but uh we raised uh in a way that was in no way questionable, that was very conservative, and most importantly, that got true buy-in uh from the industry uh that acknowledged that uh a change was imminent and that this was one of the technologies that uh they wanted to invest in. And therefore we got the impact that we got, which is that it is um the most recognized uh industry consortium, and uh we have not only the core platform in place, but a number of protocols or additional open source tools that others can use uh for their end-user applications, and they keep being developed by the foundation. And um, so in a way, it's it's it's uh it's really uh giving birth to two startups, right? One, the initial grid singularity that always wanted to focus on individual energy rights, the ability to put an individual at the same level as a large company and to open up uh the energy trading, to take it to the bottom-up market design uh model that is more efficient, that uh is more sustainable and certainly more democratic. And this is still our main mission. Uh, the Energy Web Foundation is another startup uh that was born out of the necessity to have a common understanding and collaboration in the space that is global and diverse, that includes not only these corporates but also startups who have since worked together on a number of projects and co-designed and launched various applications. Uh, it is true that some are still at MVP testing stage, but some are already around. And uh we are now at a stage where we no longer have to explain uh the utility of blockchain, its functionality. Um, it is more that uh some of the energy companies are still not sufficiently bold uh to proceed with some more disruptive cases, including the peer-to-peer uh trading case, uh and that regulators are still cautious, as is their role, and and want more uh pilots before they change. Although we are seeing huge progress in that area as well, uh especially in the European Union with the um new uh directives uh uh on uh energy communities, uh, but also in the US with the recent uh uh FERC uh uh regulation that opens the door uh to this bottom-up energy energy design. And um it is still uh a complicated path. Uh and uh I have spoken with some um people who are in um VC industry or uh that are business angels who tell me, you know, when I hear regulator in this regulated industry, I run away. And we have done the exact opposite, and we're still pursuing this this disruptive, difficult mission um and and making strides as we go along. So we have already now demonstrated uh with our free simulation tool uh that bottom-up uh uh market design uh is possible and that the technology works. Uh the next step will be to have uh physical uh proof-of-concept deployment, uh, and we're now at that stage uh to then uh convince regulators um to implement uh this technology. And you know, I'm often asked about uh what regulators should do for blockchain to be adopted, but it really um is not about blockchain itself. Uh, and regulators are, you know, they call themselves uh technology agnostic, and they should certainly remain uh technology agnostic. Uh but what needs to be done is to remove the barriers that prevent the implementation of the functionality that is now enabled by this technology that was not there before. Uh so in the case of the energy industry, it is about access to the market. It is about simplifying uh compliance-related regulation that is important, but at the moment so complicated and costly that it uh, if not legally, practically prevents uh a bottom-up market design. So, this is where more work needs to be done to fully implement the possibilities enabled by it.

Astrid Woollard 15:32

I mean, the last time I think I spoke to a regulator a year ago, so um, I had a feeling that they still don't have a quite good overview of what kind of applications there are of uh blockchain technology in the energy space. And it's also still uh, even though the energy web foundation is doing a really great job in making sort of applications and also startups in this space more visible to everyone, it seems that regulators still don't have a quite good idea of what is actually being built out there. What do you see as sort of major applications of this technology in the energy space, apart from, for example, peer-to-peer trading?

Decentralized Energy Registries, Switchboard, and Interoperability

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Ana Trbovich 17:51

Yes, um, I'd like to first say that it depends on the regulator. Uh, some are more advanced than others. Um, and one of those is certainly off-champ in the UK. They have even funded uh blockchain uh application um uh test cases in a regulatory test bed that they have uh in Cornwall uh region, for example. Um uh so that really depends on the regulator. Uh the regulators are generally uh very positive uh when they learn about the blockchain aspects because of the transparency and competition aspects, which is in the end their role. Um in terms of applications, so uh other than the uh renewable energy tracking apps, which are now uh very much commercially available uh from Singapore uh to France and uh and other areas, uh, what is uh the focus now is additional uh infrastructure uh support. So, for example, uh decentralized energy registries uh which allow for interoperability of different tools in the market uh in a way that is more efficient and protects the data. And uh this is a project uh that in the end I believe uh will be given national importance because of the benefits that it brings. Uh it's another open source tool that EWF offers uh called Switchboard. And uh and then uh this can then be customized for different markets. But essentially uh the main idea is that uh uh distributed assets have their own uh ID and that as such uh they can participate uh in different um applications and benefit from them. Uh interoperability is key in this area. This is also how we're developing our exchange. Um, so for example, in our exchange, uh we interact uh on one hand with grid operators, on the other hand with uh companies that manage and optimize assets. And uh it is crucial that they are able to onboard uh easily uh if uh to avoid vendor lock-in, uh, to promote competition, but also to enable uh scaling uh when you implement uh in different markets. Um, so this is why this infrastructure support uh is as important as an end-user app to really achieve full optimization for other applications. Uh, other than that, uh uh there are um energy actors who are looking at uh settlement balancing, financial integration, billing. And uh again, uh they're trying to understand uh how they can uh use this benefit of being more efficient while um staying compliant and and and uh in terms of all the reporting and everything else that needs to be done. So there are a number of cases, and uh what is wonderful, I think, is that uh it is now acknowledged that it is uh one of the tools um that you should use uh and consider uh in creating your applications. So it is also possible that there are applications being developed where blockchain is used in part, where this will not be even known or widely advertised. Uh but uh the point is that in the end it will be it will be used. Um we still need a a culture shift um in in some of them the more the bigger energy companies uh that um they understand that this is an asset they can use and that um and that uh they can be more efficient as a result. Uh and uh uh but the progress is very, very palpable, and and you can see many projects globally uh using it.

Christian Soschner 22:27

I'm curious. So I mean I think I'm one of the last people on the planet who have not really understood the blockchain technology yet after I hear you speaking. Uh you mentioned that you founded your company uh in Berlin. I'm uh curious about the thinking behind why Berlin. I mean, we have a very nice ecosystem here in Vienna, it's uh probably the best city in the world to live in. Uh we sorry for the commercial. Uh we have a nice ecosystem in the United Kingdom, uh, London, Oxford, Cambridge. Uh, then there also is the East Coast, in the United States, and the West Coast. What makes Berlin stand out uh in your space?

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Ana Trbovich 23:05

Um we initially started in Ghana, as as you may be aware, uh, Christian, uh, but we very quickly moved uh to Berlin. Uh and we moved to Berlin uh in great part because of its um entrepreneurial culture and a thriving blockchain community. Uh at the time uh when blockchain was a rare and niche skill. And this is perhaps forgotten today, but uh six or even four years ago, it's required. Required specialized programmers. Since then, the technology has advanced, and now you have tools that you can use to plug and play and create your own blockchain in 15 minutes. And without the same niche programming skills that you needed back in the day, right? So for most of the development. So this has enabled um uh blockchain applications to to develop um more rapidly, of course. Um but at the time Berlin was one of those few hubs that had such niche uh programmers. Uh it also hosted a number of co-founders of Ethereum that have uh an open source uh development ethos and uh a drive to create an impact. Uh many of the people that we work with and have worked with in the past or whose projects we follow from this Berlin ecosystem are driven by impact uh before financial gain. And that is a similar mission that we have uh as a company. Um and uh this culture is important not only for co-founders uh and partnerships uh but also for building the team. Uh, because in Berlin you can uh find or easily attract top talent. Uh Berlin has the advantage of being international in a way that few European cities are, where you feel uh very much uh like a Berliner, or in my case, Berlinerin, uh, without uh any need to feel uh in any way or pressure to feel um that you need to uh um how should I say um uh uh confine yourself to national bounds, which is really the case in many other European cities. So US is not like that, and Berlin is not like that. In Berlin, you're really a citizen of the world, and you are a citizen of Berlin. And that is a wonderful freedom that you feel in Berlin, this sense of belonging, uh sharing of a community and of a drive to innovate. Uh, the artists uh uh that come in and that I feel altogether contribute to a higher productivity. So this diversity of the space, I certainly feel has contributed. Uh, it is also to uh Berlin's or even you know entire Germany's credit that you can easily uh get work permits for uh employees who are not from the European Union, which again is not the case in many other EU member states or Switzerland, where it's rather difficult. So that together I think has made Berlin a really uh the best place for us to set up in. Uh naturally, now and even before uh COVID, uh remote work was also possible. Um, but uh the sense of camaraderie, uh, you know, going out for lunch together, which is a wonderful German custom, I certainly believe has contributed to our productivity level.

Christian Soschner 27:26

No, there must there must be something in Berlin because uh when we are talking about blockchain technology, uh Tesla is coming to Berlin as well, as I read in the newspapers.

Ana Trbovich 27:36

It's already it's already there. It's already there.

Christian Soschner 27:40

And uh Elon Musk is also very much into the blockchain technology when I follow his uh when I read his Twitter feed. Maybe we have in uh one or two years uh a tweet from Elon Musk about grid singularity. That would be a thing.

Could Your Electric Car Earn Money While Sitting in the Garage?

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Ana Trbovich 27:53

Well, uh it would be a natural fit uh because uh they are thinking ahead. Uh so they have already created um they have enabled their cars to participate in energy markets uh by developing the auto-bitter software. Therefore, uh if if um if if there is an energy community that um that implements uh a local electricity market with peer-to-peer and uh community uh trading, those vehicles can trade as well. Uh and and they're ready for that moment. So uh once we go from MVP to commercial, uh they will easily integrate. And I believe that other EV manufacturers will follow the same path. Uh we um have uh we are promoting this development. And um all of these energy assets, you know, and a car is an energy asset, uh, in the future will come with their own trading strategies. Um, and there are companies, other startups that we collaborate with that are uh aiming to optimize such uh strategies to make the trading smarter for your solar panel or or your car or another asset. Um and uh there will be a market for that in the future as well, where either you will build your asset with a trading strategy that you develop, or you will buy one on the market and add uh to your asset so that your asset is smarter uh when trading. Uh, this is uh not even distant uh future. Uh depending on how EU member states implement the energy community directives, uh, it may actually come much uh faster than we think. The important is to put the infrastructure together uh and to optimize. And you optimize by supporting business models like uh trading strategy algorithm uh producers uh by improving infrastructure interoperability uh with decentralized energy asset registries. Um it is a number of companies and and new business models that will come to play uh in this uh new energy market.

Christian Soschner 30:27

That's very interesting. I mean, what you mentioned uh the car as an asset. So I think you also have to change the perspective I have uh of a car. Uh up to now it was car is for car is for mobility, so it uh stands in the garage. But I think the role after what you said and also what Elon Musk writes uh the car is a completely new thing, it's a device with uh many possibilities to use it for, not only for the mobility. This is this is quite interesting.

Ana Trbovich 30:55

Yeah, you could be you could be earning money with your car and returning some of the initial investment as a result, uh, certainly.

Christian Soschner 31:03

This would be a great thing.

Astrid Woollard 31:06

Well, we are already in the age of dematerialization, so it's basically where we're heading with cars as well in the end. But Anna, you mentioned there also that um uh would uh you really appreciate it also about uh Berlin is that it's an international place with uh you know a diverse set of people. So, how much does diversity play a role in innovative businesses?

How Europe Can Build More Diverse Startups, Boards, and Investors

Ana Trbovich 31:28

Uh I'm convinced that it is a uh critical component of success. And um not only by the studies uh that are readily available on the topic, uh, but also by our practical experience. Uh, our team is diverse uh in so many ways. Uh we're trying to reach full gender parity. We have almost as many nationalities as uh colleagues on the team, uh different fates, colors, um, very different aspects, age. Um, and uh it has certainly raised our productivity level. It has uh solidified the values that we hold as a company and uh contributed to our team culture. And uh I often hear remarks from colleagues how much they appreciate uh the diversity on the team and enjoy working in such a team. I am um very much enjoying working with our current team and feel very fortunate uh to be able to work uh with such talented, uh interesting um people who also have a strong sense of personal integrity and who want to work together to achieve impact. Um, because what we do in the end is very disruptive. Um, because even though the market is such that it is very logical that you would think that it should be a bottom-up design and that it should be driven by individuals and that you should optimize uh your renewable assets, um, it is still the old market design and practice where this distributed reality becomes a challenge to management rather than a solution, and we would like to turn it into a solution.

Astrid Woollard 33:35

Great. I mean, also from your insights from having worked at the EIT, um, where do you see opportunities where how we can increase diversity in Europe? Because, for example, what I really liked about um uh the place that I studied in Oxford, uh, the entrepreneurship center there, the Oxford Foundry has sort of an uh diversity pledge that says that uh both startups and investors that want to actually come on board in this facility need to be guided by the values of diversity. And I think it's very good that they actually also include investors there, not just uh look at startups. So, what is your impression? How can we actually improve diversity across European countries?

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Ana Trbovich 34:17

Um it's not that difficult, actually. And there are many organizations that have already uh created a number of proposals. Uh, there are um VCs, for example, like in the Netherlands, that have pledged that they will not invest in a startup unless they have at least one woman co-founder. And and this has uh uh led to an increase of diversity in startups there, for example. Uh there are um, you know, you can um you can be uh very conscious of of the benefits of diversity in your HR uh at the executive and board level, uh, because role models are also uh important. And uh we're seeing also changes in education, uh which contributes from early age, um, and um encouragement uh and mentorship and a path, a career path uh where you support uh colleagues to advance um and um and to then also contribute to to your productivity and your values um as a firm or as an organization. And um I was surprised to see that um the diversity was not very high uh when I moved to Germany, uh especially in the energy industry and in the finance industry. Um and it is changing very slowly. Uh and um it's not only um the gender issue, but also the fact that you have a number of people who have never worked anywhere else. Um and um if you do not have diversity in terms of backgrounds uh in many different ways, um you will not uh innovate or be as agile as you need to be. And the world is getting to be more competitive, uh, the energy industry is getting to be more competitive, and it now needs to learn uh from others um and and move in that direction. So, in that sense, um startups can be an example uh to bigger companies, um though not all are like that. And and there are a number of startups in Berlin uh that have little diversity in terms of gender, especially. And uh it is this um wrong premise uh that you're not able to recruit. Uh, and and that that attitude also needs to change. And um, but over time I have seen um uh company founders understand its value and pay more attention. So uh you know there is progress, but but it is uh slow. And uh it is only recently that that the benefits uh are as acknowledged. Um at the EIT, which is a European Union body that supports uh uh collaboration among uh researchers, businesses, um uh startups in you know in education in Europe um by supporting programs, educational programs, um, startup acceleration has uh taken this dimension very seriously. I'm also a member of the Digital Europe Leaders of the World Economic Forum, uh, where we have also discussed this. Um so uh leading corporations are taking this to be no longer uh what was generally viewed a social issue, but an important economic uh benefit uh that should be uh taken in the management.

Astrid Woollard 38:32

Perfect. I totally agree. I mean, these days I have the feeling if you look through CVs and people have actually also stayed around at one company also for 20 or 30 years, it's more seen like a liability than an asset. So that mind is that sort of has also shifted in times and how we actually see um these things develop. So, Christian, do we have actually any questions from the audience?

Christian Soschner 38:56

Uh not yet, maybe they're coming in. I would like to add some I would like to add something what you said. I mean, this was uh the typical career advice uh in the time when I was young. So uh in the 90s, basically uh HR consultants uh recommended to stay as long as possible in a company and in the same environment because otherwise you could be seen as a failure and uh indecisive and uh not fitting in. And uh, when I look now in today's startup culture, and especially what you hear uh from Joanna, um moving uh through the world, uh going to a different city, uh studying in a different city, talking with people from different cultures, um is the let's say are the ingredients that are needed in the startup culture to be innovative and to survive in the future. Uh, did I get uh the summary right in my mind?

Audience Question: What Has Grid Singularity Actually Built for EV Trading?

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Ana Trbovich 39:55

Yes, yes. No, I I definitely hear that. And um and and staying open um to learning. Uh I have probably learned as much at meetups as uh by reading scientific articles and uh discussion papers for the last few years. Uh now with COVID, uh some of the discussion has moved to Twitter and Reddit, and then most recently Clubhouse. Uh, but um uh I miss uh meetups and talking to real people, uh, sometimes people that you would not um normally uh meet with or not in such a relaxed setting. Uh for example, I remember a meetup in Berlin where one of the rooms um was uh focusing on governance, and I went in, and uh mind you, I have a policy background. Uh and um and the discussion was all about um how do you validate a transaction. And uh we got into a very interesting uh debate about governance and what it what it means, because it obviously meant very different things to um uh programmers and non-programmers, and those two had to be bridged. And we have seen that integration uh over time, uh the multidisciplinary uh integration that happened with blockchain, where you need to um, you know, despite the wish of all of us to work outside of regular boundaries uh that are so conservative, uh the reality was that we had to translate our new concepts into what other people understood. Uh and to explain how you can use the technology in different applications beyond financial uh applications. Um and the Energy Web Foundation has uh made its contribution in educating the energy industry. And luckily, now there are a number of consultants uh in this sphere, and we can just focus on development. Uh, but when you are in a new field, uh you have to contribute to that uh general awareness as well. And um uh I know that uh Paul was one of your uh previous guests who talked about how you can use this technology to develop uh new medicine where you have to translate the functionality now to medical researchers, labs, um, so that it can be implemented efficiently. So um that bridging between the programming world and the industry applications is still uh in transition. Uh and um and this is this is um this is where um you know your podcast also can can bring benefit uh so that um people see it as as as much more than what they may be uh hear at first, uh, how really potent it can be uh in a number of other sectors. Um in Sweden, for example, it is used to have transparent real estate management and to ensure that no one can manipulate your real estate, uh your property data, uh, which is an important civic uh benefit uh as well. But I see we have some questions, yes.

Christian Soschner 43:51

Yes, no, but important things that you mentioned. I mean, I also missed the real life uh conversations, the creative conversations. Um, but there are also some good things. Uh Reddit, for example, I get the best investment advice is the most funniest advice is at Reddit. And my solution, as you said, I mean, putting out in the world to keep people connected is the podcast, and also here to give the opportunity to talk to real life experts and at least connect them virtually. And we have one question coming in from Karim. Karim, I hand you the mic. Uh, are you ready to talk?

Speaker 4 44:24

Yeah, sure.

Christian Soschner 44:25

Okay. Good to hear you. Thanks.

Speaker 4 44:27

Yeah, hello everyone. Thanks for the pre thanks for the the event. Uh very interesting. So, actually, you you mentioned it some some uh project related to electrical electric vehicle exchanging energy. Uh it would be great to have actually more information, like what you have achieved, what was the settings, what you have done with uh how how was your role in enabling uh such such actually project. Uh, we'd be interested to know more about this actually. Thank you.

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Ana Trbovich 44:55

Sure. Um uh so it is not just us. And and that is uh yes, uh and an acknowledgement where we're where you're working in in a new field. Uh and uh that is also the the value of open source development in that you collaborate with a number of different uh different uh endeavors to put all the building blocks in place. So, for example, uh for electric vehicles, uh they need uh they need to be able to trade, uh, which is why I gave the example of this autobitter software or or other software that is being developed to enable uh your electric vehicle to connect. And to trade based on a certain preference that you as an end user may have. It could be the timing. You know, I'm willing to trade the next week because I will be away. Or it may be the price or a set of preferences. And that will really be on that panel that comes with that car, which is the interface where you put in your preferences as a user. And the general understanding is that most users do not want to be too involved, right? And some may just press the button, you know, put in the template and I don't want to worry about it, I just want the benefits. Others may be more involved. And so that that is one part of the story. The other is is the entire infrastructure for trading, where uh you need uh an exchange. That's what we are developing in as a company. Uh that exchange allows the market to function and it allows for your car to have the same benefits as a you know a utility supplying electricity to your charging station or a solar panel of a neighbor that is also participating in this local market. And that solar panel will also have its own trading strategy. Um and um that for solar panel to participate, um there needs to be a company providing a similar interface as you will have in your car, right? So uh it is uh a company that you can call an aggregator or an energy management service provider that does this. And there are already smart communities in Europe that have this type of an application. There are also some vendor solutions, such as the zone and battery, for example, right? But uh with the zone and battery at the moment, it's a closed uh vendor lock-in system. The idea in the future is that it will be open and connected uh to other products and other players, including your car. And uh our exchange uh has uh two main uh APIs, right? One connecting to companies that manage the assets, such as your car or um these aggregators, as I call them, and the other connecting to grid operators, because you need to ensure that this local market uh is connected to other markets, right? That you know, you where you go from this household level to the street to the community that is a bit wider, and then up from there. And um, we are now at the stage where we are reconfiguring market roles and where uh we need to specify who will take on uh different um roles that are important for the market to function, uh, namely balancing uh beyond that local uh market. And uh, you know, you would think that grid operators would find this to be threatening, but no. Uh this is where the market is going, and this is uh the direction that has been signaled very strongly by the regulators. It is also providing access to grid operators to what they call flexibility, and what essentially means when the grid is very congested, that they can influence a local market and offer a better price to buy electricity from that local market and those distributed assets rather than go a more expensive route to add flexibility to the grid so that we do not have a blackout, right? Uh uh so grid operators are also seeing the benefits of such a connected market. Um, and uh I also mentioned the distributed um uh decentralized energy asset registry, uh, which would enable an interoperability at a level where you do not depend, you know, you do not need to depend on the service provider that you have uh for your house, for your assets, for you know, for your car, but um, they can all work together. Uh so that is those are all pieces of the puzzle. Um, and at the moment, what we have uh is um there is a tool to build such a decentralized energy asset registry, but not every market has one. So that is you can you can that that can be done, but it's not yet done everywhere. We're at the beginning of its implementation, but the technology is there and the interest is there uh from the regulatory side. Uh our exchange uh uh has demonstrated in simulation scenarios that it is fully functional. Uh we are now reaching a stage where we will do physical uh POCs, and many renewable assets are looking ahead and are now coming with these uh trading strategies integrated or looking for partners that can build such strategies for their assets. And it is um the next step will be the house appliances coming with their own trading strategies, and and and you can get more and more granular because the more granular you get, the more optimal uh it will get. And some people believe that uh this is too complicated, uh, but in fact, all the users will care about is the service. And there it is not just about the cost. Uh, this type of connectivity enables users to also choose uh the source of energy. Uh do I want only renewable? Or you know, what could be even more interesting for some is to say, I will first buy from the generator of the local hospital. So they will make money and they will sell the uh extra energy that they have, and I will support that hospital. And then then I will buy from someone else. But that is my preference. Uh, these are all very real uh possibilities. Um and uh it is it is it is up to the this this aggregator, you know, home energy management service provider to offer it through an app. Uh, but our exchange has the functionality to make this happen. So uh what we will see over time is is that these building blocks will offer more and more possibilities, and you will have a system that is um increasingly optimal. Okay. Yeah. I hope I answered your question, Kerry. Yeah, yeah. Good, yeah, great. Thank you very much.

Christian Soschner 52:53

I'm always smiling when you say grid because it reminds me of a movie uh from the 80s, uh Tron. There was this grid where the programs were going to fight. And it uh was it was it was uh one of my favorite movies. Uh thanks for the reminder. We have the next question coming in from uh Chared. Then let's do it this way. Uh thanks for the discussion, Anna. Which markets do you believe are closest to being ready for P2P electricity trading and why?

Europe, Greece, Scandinavia, the UK, the US, and Asia Compared

Audience Question: Can Peer-to-Peer Energy Trading Work Without New Laws?

Ana Trbovich 53:23

If you had asked me that question three years ago, I would probably say Europe would be last. Uh, but now with the new uh Clean Energy Act, uh, it has the opportunity the opportunity to be one of the first. So we will likely start first with some research projects, some regulatory test beds uh to demonstrate uh the functionality and then move forward. Um we have uh published an article last year about um uh you know how how this legislation is seen by different EU member states. And one of the countries that uh was most advanced at that time, for example, was Greece. And um it is very likely that this is because of the the grid challenge that the islands have uh in Greece, for example, and and the possibilities uh of solar uh in that part of Europe. Um uh Scandinavian countries um are also very advanced, uh, and the UK uh as well. Um they all have the deadline of this year uh to implement uh nationally uh what is uh an EU directive, which is the guideline, and and and we will know more uh in a few months. Uh outside uh Europe, uh we have seen a very positive signal from FERC in the US just a few months ago. And um if you go beyond um uh some of the regions um such as Asia, for example, Southeast Asia, uh are not as highly regulated in some areas, which would also allow for faster implementation. And generally, if you look at the energy access uh field uh where uh you're offering uh an islanded solution in that sense. So a closed solution uh that is not connected to the grid, uh, but that allows uh that community uh to not only benefit from distributed assets but also share them. And what we have currently in place are some centralized solutions that essentially rely uh rely on what is called an energy home system, where usually you have a panels and a battery, uh, but without uh connecting such systems in a village, uh, for example, which would be the next step. Uh so those are all options. And uh the path that we will be taking is to start with um research test beds uh to convince regulators uh to move forward. Uh, there have been other pilots in this area, uh, but they did not have the same approach, namely, they relied on preset pricing and pre-matched um trading partners, which limits scale. Uh so uh this would be a first trial of an approach that relies uh fully on the market to set pricing, and uh that is also fully open source uh and and fully transparent uh with the added uh blockchain integration that is uh next in our pipeline. So um in that sense, uh you know, we're hoping that such demonstrations will uh convince the regulators to move faster. Otherwise, you can also reinterpret regulation differently and work with different um asset managers who own a number of assets and who will implement it behind the meter and um achieve uh optimization for their assets uh, but not moving uh beyond that. Our goal is to move uh beyond and to uh to really connect up the market so that it is not just a small uh energy community that is isolated, but that it is at the end the entire town uh and and the entire region uh that changes the way it operates. In one of the simulations that we have done, we have shown that if you have a smart energy community and if you have a community next door that is uh not as wealthy, which for example is the case in many urban environments, uh if you have local trading, both uh the community that is rich in renewable assets and one that does not have such assets uh would benefit, which uh as an important, it's an important social objective uh in addition to an economic one.

Christian Soschner 58:46

We have another question coming in from uh Matthias. Matthias, here is the mic. Hello. Hello, good to hear you.

Why Grid Operators May Become the Biggest Supporters of P2P Energy

Speaker 3 58:54

Yes, uh well, uh thank you for uh for the this opportunity and uh uh for the and uh I appreciate the excellent uh exposition. Uh well the presentation. Oh so my question uh is uh well I'm from Brazil and um I have uh have been researching the distributed generation of electricity for a while, and uh I come from Raw and uh I worked about the protection of the the legal protection of the prosumer, which means it's uh the agglutination of the worlds producer and the consumer, and it's very popular in the in this field. So uh basically um my my question is uh uh we have uh a lot of challenges uh in the developing countries, so and the problem is uh uh our Congress and many legislators uh they don't feel like um uh we can say uh comfortable uh to establish uh uh a certain uh uh uh regulation to provide the uh the uh great institutions and uh infrastructure uh for uh peer-to-peer energy trading. So uh my question is uh would be feasible to um provide uh peer-to-peer trading without uh legislation. Of course, we can talk about off-grid uh uh off-grid um uh uh and local and local communities uh generation, but how uh would be feasible with uh with uh blockchain uh like energy web uh companies does, for example? Thank you.

Final Takeaways: Blockchain, Energy Markets, and What Comes Next

Ana Trbovich 1:00:42

Thank you for your question, Mateus. Um I am uh I'm happy to say that um and and you may not be aware, but uh your largest energy company, Electrobras, uh, has uh joined the Energy Web Foundation and started collaborating um uh a few months ago, uh, which uh which is important both because geographic um diversity matters and that all the regions participate um in in the benefits of a new innovation, and also because uh my understanding is that also that um they're one of the leading um companies uh in the entire uh continent and and would be a model for others in that sense to to venture into this innovation. And uh my understanding is also that they're generally viewed as a more conservative company, uh, which is why uh this is this is additionally important. And um the the interest that they have uh is is to improve uh grid management, to reduce congestion, to benefit from flexibility, and to coordinate these uh different um renewable assets. Uh, because for for most people, uh when you say renewable assets, uh you think positively. You think uh that they contribute to a renewable source of energy that is improving sustainability and contributing to environmental protection, um, in addition to uh increasingly bringing very clear economic benefits with the lowered cost of production and generally an increased output and therefore uh generally uh uh increasingly better return on investment, uh, not just for environmental but also cost reasons. However, if you are a grid operator, uh you will not say so much publicly, uh, but you consider them to be a problem or at least a challenge, because you have all of these small uh distributed assets around that want to connect to the network, and you need to manage now all of these connections uh instead of just a few that you previously had. If you talk to a regulator, they say, well, uh, when you have a solar panel and you connect to the grid and you get a special tariff to sell uh you know what you do not use to the grid, then you do not participate in the costs, then the others have to pay for you to connect to the grid, right? So this view is based on the fact that the world has changed, the market design has not. And if you're a grid operator, uh you can have flexible grid fees instead of uh you know constant uh unchanging fees, and you can uh influence the market when you need that uh and actually use them as a tool. And and um this um this is uh for those grid operators that learn about the possibilities, uh, then they become some of the strongest supporters of uh peer-to-peer trading. The um what remains uh a question where you need to convince the regulators is will all the balancing be done uh in a way that uh secures supply? That because that is one of the main roles uh that you have to fulfill. And uh, you know, is it sufficiently safe uh from the data protection point of view, all these different issues that you have when you digitize? And uh who will ensure that there is full uh compliance uh with all the reporting that that is part of that compliance. And this is the same in Brazil and in Germany and in Austria and uh Australia, and uh this is why it is important to reconfigure the roles in this new system and to agree how you will continue to uh uh balance and report and comply and integrate uh your local market into higher markets while providing this additional benefit. Uh, is it possible? Absolutely. It is just a matter of interpreting uh for the most part uh the current legislation. Will we come to an understanding that perhaps some regulation needs to change? It is also possible. Uh uh, but even for reinterpretation, it needs to become acceptable. And uh this is why we plan to do more studies and collaborate with uh leading energy researchers, uh energy policy research uh think tanks to uh to uh increase the understanding uh in this area of how the roles can be reconfigured to satisfy the compliance uh criteria, which are important. So, again, it is about bridging uh what the new technology can do and how to reinterpret this uh with the system that we have, and and also push for changes where we demonstrate that um they are required and that the main roles, uh the more the main objectives are still going to be uh full fulfilled. So um I see your comment about moving energy from public to private law. Uh energy is regulated uh globally. Uh most countries have independent uh energy agencies as well. Uh very few are still coupled, though some some still are. And um I see them going or and treating this issue in a similar way. There will certainly be a pioneer that will be ahead. It is not impossible that this is going to be Scandinavia, um, and others are likely to follow.

Astrid Woollard 1:08:22

Perfect. Thank you so much for your insights, Anna. I think with that question we've reached the end of the podcast. So that was really great to hear your insights on how blockchain technology can and is uh being applied to the energy sector, and also a few thoughts that you shared around being uh a startup in Berlin or a more like a more established uh scale up, maybe. So, really great and a pleasure to have you here on the show, and thank you very much.

Ana Trbovich 1:08:51

Thank you, Astrid and Christian.

Christian Soschner 1:08:54

Thank you very much for your time and have a great day.

Ana Trbovich 1:08:57

Thank you.

Christian Soschner 1:08:58

Bye bye. Guten Abend. Thanks for listening. Please, please share the podcast and make sure you've subscribed. Have a great day.