Beginner's Mind
Discover the Secrets of Deep Tech Success with Christian Soschner
Discover the strategies and mindsets that transform cutting-edge deep tech ideas into thriving businesses. Christian Soschner delves into the world of deep tech, exploring how entrepreneurs and investors build value and navigate the unique challenges of breakthrough industries.
Each episode features candid conversations with top investors, industry disruptors, and insightful book reviews – dissecting the strategies behind success, observed through my lens, shaped by 35+ years of building organizations and insights from ultrarunning, chess, and martial arts.
Expect:
- Investor Insights: Learn from experts who fund innovation, identifying opportunities and mitigating risk.
- Entrepreneurial Journeys: Go behind-the-scenes with founders turning deep tech concepts into impactful companies.
- Relevant Book Reviews: Discover actionable wisdom from biographies, strategy guides, and thought-provoking reads.
- Focus on Impact: Understand the business models, investment strategies, and market trends that fuel deep tech's potential for real-world impact.
Whether you're building the next big thing, investing in it, or keen on understanding this transformative space, this podcast is your guide to success in the world of deep tech.
Join the community and shape the conversation: https://lsg2g.substack.com/
Beginner's Mind
EP 137: Hampus Jakobsson - The Secret to Venture Success: Investing in People, Not Just Ideas
Did you know the secret to venture success isn't just in groundbreaking ideas? It's in the people behind them. Learn how empathy and grit fuel extraordinary success in this insightful episode. Many investors fail by only chasing ideas.
Discover why focusing on the right founders can unlock revolutionary outcomes.
Join us as Hampus Jakobsson reveals how empathy and grit are the true drivers of innovation and success. Most investors miss out on potential unicorns by focusing only on concepts. What if the real key to revolutionary success lies in the unique qualities of the founders?
🎙️ What's in the Episode:
1️⃣ Empathy and Grit: Learn why these traits are essential for founders aiming to make a significant impact.
2️⃣ Market Understanding: Understand the importance of having a clear vision for the future and how it influences investment decisions.
3️⃣ Investing in Resilience: Discover why Hampus Jakobsson focuses on people who are not just smart, but incredibly resilient and unconventional.
👤 About Hampus Jakobsson:
Hampus Jakobsson is the co-founder of Pale Blue Dot, a venture capital fund focused on climate tech innovation. He believes that the future belongs to those who think differently and have the resilience to turn their unconventional ideas into reality.
💡 LINKS TO MORE CONTENT Christian Soschner
💡 Quotes:
(09:58) "Reading fiction builds empathy, allowing us to experience the world through others' eyes."
(28:45) "Any time in life I've been the smartest person in the room, I usually try to find other rooms."
(00:57:35) "The mobile industry missed innovation due to medieval-like alliances and rigid structures."
(01:03:01) "Innovators and entrepreneurs drive progress; managers often stifle it by prioritizing efficiency."
(01:50:49) "The greatest founders combine empathy and grit to navigate the toughest challenges."
⏰ Timestamps:
(02:00) Mastering Multiple Accents and Languages
(07:00) The Power of Fiction and Top Podcast
(09:49) Building empathy through fiction's diverse perspectives
(11:27) Imagining the future: mind uploading and lunar economy
(17:53) Authenticity vs. Performance: The Inner vs. Outer Self
(21:39) Bitcoin: A Catalyst for Metaphysical Conversations about Value
(27:02) Explore vs. Exploit: Balancing Algorithmic Strategies for Growth
(30:57) The Burning Library: Empathy and the Destruction of Knowledge
(38:15) The Turning Point: From Arts to Mobile Technology
(40:44) "The Birth of the Business Card: A Humorous Tale of Entrepreneurial Resourcefulness"
(43:46) Landing a Major Client by Chance
(52:44) Samsung's Speed to Market Philosophy: Thriving in a Fast-Paced Tech Environment
(53:41) Competing Giants: Motorola, Samsung, Sony Ericsson, and Nokia's Battle for Supremacy
(57:35) Market Saturation and Innovation: What the Mobile Industry Missed
(01:03:00) Steve Jobs' Philosophy: Wasting Time in a Great Way
(01:09:07) Apple vs. Google: Contrasting Paths to Innovation
(01:12:00) Pride and Passion: The Secret Sauce of Successful Companies
(01:16:00) Building Trust and Relationships: A Venture Capitalist's Perspective
(01:19:01) Finding the Right Founder-Investor Relationship
(01:20:08) Investing in the Extraordinary
(01:28:00) Investing in extraordinary people and their unconventional visions
(01:36:00) The drive to win is essential for great entrepreneurs
(01:28:00) The Us
Join the Podcast Newsletter: Link
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:38:09
Christian Soschner
Did you know that finding the next big innovation is just about the idea? It's about the people behind it. This episode reveals how extraordinary individuals with unconventional visions drive success. Most investors miss out on potential unicorns by focusing only on ideas. What if the key to revolutionary success lies in the empathy and grit of the founders?
00:00:38:09 - 00:00:38:19
Hampus Jakobsson
most.
00:00:38:19 - 00:00:43:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Of the companies, you know, and like me, invested in are not the ones that you think of when you think about tiny company.
00:00:43:09 - 00:00:44:00
Hampus Jakobsson
you have to find.
00:00:44:00 - 00:00:46:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Stuff that are, like, truly worth the time.
00:00:46:08 - 00:00:47:12
Hampus Jakobsson
But we just felt like, oh.
00:00:47:12 - 00:00:48:22
Hampus Jakobsson
This is going to be messy market, I don't.
00:00:48:22 - 00:00:49:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Know. But then
00:00:49:19 - 00:01:20:23
Christian Soschner
Welcome to today's episode. Meet Hampus Jakobsen, co-founder of Pale Blue Dots, a venture capital fund focused on dynamics, tech, innovation. Hampus believes the future belongs to those who think differently and have the resilience to turn their unconventional ideas into reality. In this episode, you will discover
00:01:20:23 - 00:01:28:01
Christian Soschner
how empathy and grit are essential traits for founders aiming to make a significant impact.
00:01:28:03 - 00:01:43:11
Christian Soschner
The importance of understanding the market and having a clear vision for the future, and why Hampus invests in people who are not just smart, but also incredibly resilient.
00:01:43:11 - 00:02:04:12
Christian Soschner
Before jumping into the episode, remember to subscribe, comment and share. Support helps bring more insightful content for free to you, the listener. Now enjoy the conversation with Hampus Jakobsen and explore the secrets behind success for venture investing.
00:02:04:12 - 00:02:10:15
Christian Soschner
Perfect. Hampus Jakobsen, is it is it the spelling of the family name is correct.
00:02:10:21 - 00:02:11:19
Hampus Jakobsson
That's great.
00:02:11:21 - 00:02:32:03
Christian Soschner
So I'm from Austria. So basically it's, I think there's some, some specifics, but I want to start, the first question that I would like to ask you is, I watched your videos on YouTube and they are fantastic. And you speak in English without any accent. Why?
00:02:32:05 - 00:02:33:00
Hampus Jakobsson
And I
00:02:33:00 - 00:02:41:03
Hampus Jakobsson
think it's the very simple fact that I'm the fourth kid. So, like, I grew up with essentially five parents because my three older brothers, there's so much older name.
00:02:41:05 - 00:02:42:16
Hampus Jakobsson
So I can change if you.
00:02:42:16 - 00:02:45:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Want, and I can do it in British English if you make it that easier.
00:02:46:00 - 00:02:46:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Or I can.
00:02:46:13 - 00:02:51:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Change into it to be their French accent. If you think that it makes me more authentic from Paris,
00:02:51:19 - 00:02:52:16
Hampus Jakobsson
And I can just switch.
00:02:52:16 - 00:03:00:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Between a lot of accents. And I think that's that trait you learn when you're the fourth child. It's like you have to just figure out how to get attention. Even if you're the worst person in the room.
00:03:00:10 - 00:03:02:09
Christian Soschner
How many languages do you speak?
00:03:02:11 - 00:03:04:00
Hampus Jakobsson
I only I speak only.
00:03:04:00 - 00:03:05:03
Hampus Jakobsson
I would say.
00:03:05:05 - 00:03:05:17
Hampus Jakobsson
English
00:03:05:17 - 00:03:09:01
Hampus Jakobsson
and English and Swedish. I used to speak French.
00:03:09:02 - 00:03:11:10
Hampus Jakobsson
I used to work in Paris back in 99.
00:03:11:12 - 00:03:11:17
Hampus Jakobsson
and.
00:03:11:17 - 00:03:30:00
Hampus Jakobsson
I had an a quite an extraordinary, French teacher. So I actually did speak French. Not like, not like Americans speak French, but actually do speak French. For real. But it's 20 years ago, so I don't speak French. I had a small stint when I spoke a bit of Japanese because I worked in Japan, but so little that I would say like, I wouldn't rank myself on the, on that scale at all.
00:03:30:02 - 00:03:34:01
Hampus Jakobsson
so that's it. And then I can I can order Coca Cola in German, more or less.
00:03:34:02 - 00:03:35:04
Hampus Jakobsson
That's kind of have limit.
00:03:35:04 - 00:03:36:11
Christian Soschner
So that's great.
00:03:36:13 - 00:03:38:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Very few languages for real.
00:03:38:13 - 00:03:42:17
Christian Soschner
And in which counter-intuitive. currently started recording.
00:03:42:19 - 00:03:44:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Now I live in southern Sweden, so.
00:03:44:01 - 00:03:45:03
Hampus Jakobsson
I live essentially on the other
00:03:45:03 - 00:03:56:03
Hampus Jakobsson
side of the border. Here it's Copenhagen. So on the map it looks like I live in Copenhagen, but I live on the other side of the live water there, so I live. I usually jokingly say I live in the Brooklyn of Copenhagen. It's like the suburbs of the of the Danish capital.
00:03:56:05 - 00:03:58:08
Christian Soschner
How is the lifestyle?
00:03:58:10 - 00:03:59:01
Hampus Jakobsson
I think what.
00:03:59:01 - 00:04:00:13
Hampus Jakobsson
I like about it is that it's.
00:04:00:13 - 00:04:00:24
Hampus Jakobsson
In the.
00:04:00:24 - 00:04:20:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Current stage of my life. I think it's really perfect because I it's like I bike to work. it's like there's a very large beach and like, water. I do a lot of water kayaking. it's amazing place to go runs. It's like half an hour from really nice nature. I think a lot of those, things. I think the headache is that there are 300,000 people in total.
00:04:20:12 - 00:04:20:18
Hampus Jakobsson
And.
00:04:20:18 - 00:04:37:24
Hampus Jakobsson
It used to be an industrial city. Has the university has a lot of stuff that that stuff. But it has a very low factor of like crazy, ambitious tech people. And I realized the last ten years that that's a good thing for me. I think it used to be like ten years ago. I always fled and like, worked and, you know, Paris and.
00:04:38:01 - 00:04:38:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Then in.
00:04:38:23 - 00:04:50:10
Hampus Jakobsson
And in London and, Korea and a lot of other places to try to get out and meet like crazy people who did crazy stuff. And then I realized that now in my 40s, I actually really enjoy it because I work all the time on zoom, right? Like I live.
00:04:50:10 - 00:04:51:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Online. And I think.
00:04:51:18 - 00:04:54:00
Hampus Jakobsson
It's great to be in a city where.
00:04:54:02 - 00:04:56:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Yeah, there's just not a lot of distractions.
00:04:56:05 - 00:05:15:22
Hampus Jakobsson
and it sounds really sad and complacent, but I realized how it actually is a part for me. And I end up working like a couple of weeks in London and in Paris and other places with our company, stay rested in. And every time I go, I feel like, oh, I love this week. And on the Friday when I'm going home, I feel like, oh, it's so good that I'm going home because I feel so, so just like so intense, like, oh, I cocktail and dinner than this.
00:05:15:22 - 00:05:16:03
Hampus Jakobsson
And I feel.
00:05:16:03 - 00:05:16:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, fuck, I just want.
00:05:16:18 - 00:05:33:13
Hampus Jakobsson
To go to bed and read my book. And I'm a super boring person. I really enjoy, like, you know, listening to podcast, reading lots of fiction books and just like being into my own to the small things, playing computer games or enjoying stuff with my kids. So I feel like dinners and cocktails are not my thing.
00:05:34:06 - 00:05:52:08
Christian Soschner
let me dive into before we come to the professional part of the podcast in this, private section you mentioned to love listening to podcasts. Yeah. You enjoy reading and computer games. Can you recommend one book, one podcast, and one game to the audience?
00:05:52:10 - 00:05:52:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Now? It's
00:05:52:23 - 00:05:54:11
Hampus Jakobsson
I think it's a great question. I think.
00:05:54:11 - 00:05:55:12
Hampus Jakobsson
That on a book I.
00:05:55:12 - 00:06:01:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Read quite a lot. I think that everybody should read. I think that I'm really happy that I read a lot of fiction.
00:06:02:00 - 00:06:11:01
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think it's like I had a favorite period when I when I was a kid, when I read a lot of fiction, and then I got out of it and start reading business books and got really into business books and felt how it made me a better person.
00:06:11:03 - 00:06:12:23
Hampus Jakobsson
But then I think realized.
00:06:12:23 - 00:06:20:08
Hampus Jakobsson
That how business books are a very kind of projected flat surface of like how the world works, like very kind of western atomized personalities.
00:06:20:08 - 00:06:21:21
Hampus Jakobsson
And and then I just completely switched.
00:06:21:21 - 00:06:28:08
Hampus Jakobsson
I only listened to business books, and I like other kind of books about fungi or whatever. I like all the kind of text books I love listening to them when I bike or.
00:06:28:08 - 00:06:29:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Run or something. but.
00:06:29:21 - 00:06:34:07
Hampus Jakobsson
I just like, I read, fiction. So I would say the book I would really recommend, I think.
00:06:34:07 - 00:06:35:06
Hampus Jakobsson
That I.
00:06:35:06 - 00:06:51:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Really enjoyed, a Little Life. A little life. I think it's a really good book. It's a book that is a lot about tension and ambition and how, like, even working with some of your best friends can actually be really hard. Horrible. In one sense. I really, really liked it. Was a lot of years since I read it, but I, I really, really loved it.
00:06:51:07 - 00:07:04:01
Hampus Jakobsson
And last year I read tomorrow, Tomorrow and Tomorrow, which is a love novel between two, software dollar person game developer company. And I think it's, it's like, I really, really enjoyed that book in so many aspects because it's written in a very quirky way.
00:07:04:06 - 00:07:05:08
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that the.
00:07:05:08 - 00:07:07:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Last comment about fiction is, I think what we don't realize about fiction.
00:07:07:21 - 00:07:09:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Is that we really we've been.
00:07:09:07 - 00:07:14:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Into this ancient technology that allows us to teleport our minds and bodies into somebody else's mind and body.
00:07:14:19 - 00:07:15:08
Hampus Jakobsson
And can actually.
00:07:15:08 - 00:07:18:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Be that person for hundreds and hundreds of hours or pages.
00:07:18:05 - 00:07:19:00
Hampus Jakobsson
And it's crazy.
00:07:19:00 - 00:07:20:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Because when you read a book.
00:07:20:17 - 00:07:20:21
Hampus Jakobsson
like.
00:07:20:21 - 00:07:22:00
Hampus Jakobsson
You, you are that right.
00:07:22:00 - 00:07:23:22
Hampus Jakobsson
And even if you watch a movie, it's.
00:07:23:22 - 00:07:29:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Not the same level, because then you're being fed. So I think that that it's amazing to be able to be teleport in somebody's body.
00:07:29:19 - 00:07:30:16
Hampus Jakobsson
I think on.
00:07:30:18 - 00:07:39:24
Hampus Jakobsson
podcasts, I always say like, I think that conversations with Tyler, it's like one of my favorite podcast. And one of the reasons, I think, is that Tyler can't ask questions like nobody else. He does an amount of research.
00:07:40:01 - 00:07:40:22
Hampus Jakobsson
And then he asks.
00:07:40:22 - 00:07:43:22
Hampus Jakobsson
The most esoteric questions. And what I really like is the fact that he.
00:07:43:22 - 00:07:45:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Actually it's a very.
00:07:45:10 - 00:07:47:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Broad, host, like.
00:07:47:18 - 00:07:48:18
Hampus Jakobsson
He interviews.
00:07:48:18 - 00:07:49:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Anybody from.
00:07:49:06 - 00:07:50:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Like now.
00:07:50:06 - 00:07:51:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Guard about how his.
00:07:51:05 - 00:07:52:21
Hampus Jakobsson
How he's writing books to kind.
00:07:52:21 - 00:07:55:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Of famous economist or famous venture capital people for that.
00:07:55:21 - 00:07:56:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Sense. And I think.
00:07:56:21 - 00:07:58:03
Hampus Jakobsson
It's so amazing because like.
00:07:58:05 - 00:07:58:16
Hampus Jakobsson
He has this.
00:07:58:16 - 00:08:01:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Amazing episode about a person who, now blank her.
00:08:01:19 - 00:08:02:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Name, but who.
00:08:02:17 - 00:08:05:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Translated the, The Odyssey and the Iliad.
00:08:05:21 - 00:08:07:05
Hampus Jakobsson
The recent, English.
00:08:07:05 - 00:08:15:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Translation. And it sounds like one of those things where you just feel like, how can this be interesting? But then you listen to the interview and it's actually really interesting. It's really, really good. And then on game.
00:08:15:22 - 00:08:30:14
Hampus Jakobsson
I love all games that are there are two strategies. It's a linear strategy, and there's an exponential strategy where it's like you take the linear one and you kind of quickly looks good what you're doing. But if the game goes on long enough, you will lose a guard. Somebody who does it more like build strategy. And the reason game I fall into.
00:08:30:14 - 00:08:43:05
Hampus Jakobsson
What is hex RG? I really, really like actually. It's like a card and forex game and I think it's perfectly sets the balance. Like it can be very short term, but that bites you in the ass further on. But I have to say today.
00:08:44:03 - 00:09:02:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Which is the 21st, 24th of October is the day when City Skylines two is released. So I would just put a plug first, gets into skylines, which I think is one of the best city simulations. The games. I'm very lucky to have three kids that I share this love with. It's like, I it's so great to have a 15 year old and to 12 year olds that I can nerd out to, and I'm like.
00:09:02:20 - 00:09:04:24
Christian Soschner
You're blessed to have a great excuse to play games.
00:09:05:04 - 00:09:07:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Exactly. I don't like it at all. It's for my kids.
00:09:07:09 - 00:09:09:21
Christian Soschner
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It's, it's a trap as a father, so.
00:09:09:21 - 00:09:10:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Yeah, exactly.
00:09:10:12 - 00:09:12:00
Hampus Jakobsson
That's a that's like trying to be a good parent.
00:09:12:00 - 00:09:13:11
Hampus Jakobsson
That's exactly the trick.
00:09:13:11 - 00:09:14:15
Hampus Jakobsson
In ten years, I want to have to, like,
00:09:14:15 - 00:09:17:22
Hampus Jakobsson
pretend that I'm, like, practicing or something. I don't know.
00:09:17:24 - 00:09:20:22
Christian Soschner
I have a I think great, great kids.
00:09:20:22 - 00:09:23:10
Hampus Jakobsson
I can't exactly thank you.
00:09:23:11 - 00:09:25:18
Christian Soschner
That's great. That's an expression.
00:09:25:18 - 00:09:38:20
Christian Soschner
you mentioned you love reading fiction books. when I think back the last 30 years of my life, I always said business people shouldn't read fiction books.
00:09:38:20 - 00:09:54:03
Christian Soschner
they should stick with nonfiction and make the most out of the time. And, what's the advantage to people in the business environment, in your opinion, when they also use some of the time to delve into what's fiction?
00:09:54:05 - 00:10:03:08
Hampus Jakobsson
I think there are there apart from like mind traveling, I think there are two things I find really, really interesting is that it depends on what kind of fiction you read, but you can read books like,
00:10:03:10 - 00:10:05:21
Hampus Jakobsson
You can like, a little Life.
00:10:05:23 - 00:10:15:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Which is like, you know, it's a or, purple hibiscus. It's just like great books of transporting you into someone else's life. And actually having. And I think it builds enormous on empathy, like.
00:10:15:21 - 00:10:17:14
Hampus Jakobsson
It's just teaches you how.
00:10:17:14 - 00:10:18:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Other people sees the world.
00:10:18:20 - 00:10:20:03
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that's you can.
00:10:20:03 - 00:10:23:03
Hampus Jakobsson
See it's super short term. It's like if you want to be good, become a good negotiator or.
00:10:23:03 - 00:10:26:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Whatever, just understanding that like.
00:10:26:13 - 00:10:29:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Oh, like growing up in Ireland as a gay.
00:10:29:15 - 00:10:31:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Man meant.
00:10:31:22 - 00:10:37:01
Hampus Jakobsson
That. And then during the 80s, fleeing to the U.S during like during the HIV like, quote unquote gay.
00:10:37:01 - 00:10:38:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Pandemic, like you just.
00:10:38:09 - 00:10:44:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Realized that, oh my God, I've never thought about this. Like in this way. Like for me, it was a fact in a history book. But this is a real person, right.
00:10:44:18 - 00:10:45:07
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that's.
00:10:45:07 - 00:10:47:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Like it's an extraordinary way.
00:10:47:00 - 00:10:48:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Of just understanding.
00:10:48:13 - 00:10:48:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Other.
00:10:48:17 - 00:10:51:02
Hampus Jakobsson
People. It's like the longest conversation I had with.
00:10:51:02 - 00:10:53:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Somebody at 2 a.m. in the middle of the night over a glass of.
00:10:53:00 - 00:10:55:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Wine. But this is just you and them, and you can.
00:10:55:12 - 00:10:57:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Pace at any time you want, which is extraordinary.
00:10:57:04 - 00:10:57:13
Hampus Jakobsson
And they don't.
00:10:57:13 - 00:10:59:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Get too drunk. It's a book. It's like you.
00:10:59:00 - 00:11:00:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Can you can have the conversation.
00:11:00:19 - 00:11:09:10
Hampus Jakobsson
The other reason I think it is like I, I used to be extremely fascinated reading science fiction, and then I completely got out of it. But I think there's a new way of science. So science fiction, which I think is really extraordinary.
00:11:09:12 - 00:11:11:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Which are very much.
00:11:11:24 - 00:11:14:21
Hampus Jakobsson
I think, what science fiction allows us to do. It's like we're able to create a.
00:11:14:21 - 00:11:16:01
Hampus Jakobsson
World in which.
00:11:16:01 - 00:11:19:16
Hampus Jakobsson
The world like them, the system around the world is different.
00:11:19:22 - 00:11:23:05
Hampus Jakobsson
And it allows us to simulate different questions. So like what happens.
00:11:23:05 - 00:11:28:13
Hampus Jakobsson
When you we can upload minds or like, I see you, you have, Andrew Weiss, books on their.
00:11:28:13 - 00:11:31:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Shelf. Like how when we can transport people to the moon.
00:11:31:18 - 00:11:33:07
Hampus Jakobsson
How will the economical system of the.
00:11:33:07 - 00:11:45:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Moon like what is the economy of the moon like, if we built the moon base, what would the economy be? And I think that I the books I generally love, if I would just like, boil them down, it's that either somebody really.
00:11:45:06 - 00:11:47:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Thought through how something would work in the future.
00:11:48:00 - 00:11:50:22
Hampus Jakobsson
And not technology, because like if you take even Neil.
00:11:50:22 - 00:11:51:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Stevenson.
00:11:51:09 - 00:11:52:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Like if you take a thing that.
00:11:52:10 - 00:11:53:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Somebody get into how you transport into.
00:11:53:20 - 00:11:55:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Space. The thing is that technology.
00:11:55:12 - 00:11:57:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Really moves in such surprising ways.
00:11:57:05 - 00:11:59:00
Hampus Jakobsson
But if you take the things that are human aspects.
00:11:59:00 - 00:12:01:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Like like identity or.
00:12:01:01 - 00:12:03:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Economy, these things are so interesting too.
00:12:03:08 - 00:12:04:22
Hampus Jakobsson
I think to simulate because we're.
00:12:04:22 - 00:12:12:23
Hampus Jakobsson
So stuck in our ways, like ten years ago, people, a lot of most people believed we had two genders, like, I think it's and then let's like 10% of.
00:12:12:23 - 00:12:14:04
Hampus Jakobsson
The future and we talk about mind.
00:12:14:04 - 00:12:16:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Uploading. What if you mind upload a.
00:12:16:21 - 00:12:19:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Person, a biological person who was female when.
00:12:19:07 - 00:12:25:17
Hampus Jakobsson
She lived into a male body? What is the new person like? Is the new person a female in a male body, or a.
00:12:25:19 - 00:12:27:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Kind of like a parasite or is it like a male.
00:12:27:19 - 00:12:30:15
Hampus Jakobsson
That stole a female's mind? What is that person?
00:12:30:20 - 00:12:36:15
Hampus Jakobsson
And they're amazing books like, and I can tell you what's their first name? American. Okay. They wrote like, amazing books.
00:12:36:15 - 00:12:42:17
Hampus Jakobsson
About that, about, like, identity and mind uploading. And I think it's like one of the few ways you actually can. And the other one on.
00:12:42:17 - 00:12:45:14
Hampus Jakobsson
The books are the ones that do that, but they do it with instead of doing it in the.
00:12:45:14 - 00:12:47:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Future. They do it in history.
00:12:47:14 - 00:12:50:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Right? Like purple, like biscuits or something, which allows you to be like.
00:12:50:12 - 00:12:53:14
Hampus Jakobsson
What would it be? like, like kindled.
00:12:53:14 - 00:13:01:23
Hampus Jakobsson
By, what's her name now? super famous American author where, like, a black woman in the 90s gets transported back into slavery times in the.
00:13:01:23 - 00:13:05:14
Hampus Jakobsson
U.S where she is still back, but, but.
00:13:05:14 - 00:13:08:09
Hampus Jakobsson
She's in a time were being black men that you're a slave.
00:13:08:11 - 00:13:08:24
Hampus Jakobsson
And then.
00:13:08:24 - 00:13:12:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Every like fourth or fifth chapter, she kind of wakes up in her body in the.
00:13:12:09 - 00:13:14:10
Hampus Jakobsson
80s in L.A, where being.
00:13:14:10 - 00:13:19:10
Hampus Jakobsson
At like a person of color. Isn't that easy, but it's of course, way better than it was, you know, 100 years earlier.
00:13:19:15 - 00:13:26:21
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think one of those things that if you're a white man and, you know, southern Sweden, like I think about color, but I don't think about what it.
00:13:26:21 - 00:13:29:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Would be to be a person of color in the 90s and late.
00:13:29:19 - 00:13:31:19
Hampus Jakobsson
But but and I don't think.
00:13:31:19 - 00:13:35:11
Hampus Jakobsson
About how it is to be a person of color in the, you know, in the US.
00:13:35:11 - 00:13:36:17
Hampus Jakobsson
South, you.
00:13:36:17 - 00:13:37:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Know, a hundred years.
00:13:37:04 - 00:13:39:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Earlier. And it's one of those things it's just like in history book.
00:13:39:13 - 00:13:43:05
Hampus Jakobsson
So I think these are the reasons I think everybody should read more fiction.
00:13:43:05 - 00:13:52:09
Christian Soschner
you mentioned two parts of fiction. So one is and fiction. So it's completely made up. And the other part, I understood that I wasn't try reading biographies of fiction that.
00:13:52:10 - 00:13:54:21
Hampus Jakobsson
No, I wouldn't call it biographies. I really enjoy.
00:13:54:21 - 00:13:56:01
Hampus Jakobsson
When the books are like.
00:13:56:05 - 00:13:57:00
Hampus Jakobsson
They have,
00:13:57:02 - 00:13:59:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, I think that I don't enjoy reading books that.
00:13:59:24 - 00:14:01:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Are completely.
00:14:01:22 - 00:14:03:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Everything is fictional and all bets are off.
00:14:04:00 - 00:14:04:22
Hampus Jakobsson
So, like I used.
00:14:04:22 - 00:14:06:12
Hampus Jakobsson
To when I was a kid, I read through a lot of fantasy.
00:14:06:17 - 00:14:07:22
Hampus Jakobsson
But I think that fantasy is the.
00:14:07:22 - 00:14:08:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Easiest way of just.
00:14:08:21 - 00:14:11:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Saying. And then he did another spell, and then you.
00:14:11:11 - 00:14:12:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Go like, okay, so.
00:14:12:17 - 00:14:14:12
Hampus Jakobsson
All bets are off. And I think it's very hard.
00:14:14:12 - 00:14:15:20
Hampus Jakobsson
To learn anything from those books.
00:14:15:20 - 00:14:16:10
Hampus Jakobsson
I think I enjoy.
00:14:16:10 - 00:14:23:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Fantasy as a way of just relaxing the mind, because everything's archetypal goal. There's one strong person, there's one thief, there's one magician, there's one way.
00:14:23:17 - 00:14:24:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Oh, okay. But they're great.
00:14:24:22 - 00:14:28:00
Hampus Jakobsson
For, like, just relaxing and like, it's kind of going with a swim with our friends.
00:14:28:02 - 00:14:33:07
Hampus Jakobsson
I think what I like about, I like that both sides, both the empathic books.
00:14:33:07 - 00:14:35:12
Hampus Jakobsson
And the conceptual books are they're based on.
00:14:35:12 - 00:14:36:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Something.
00:14:36:08 - 00:14:38:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Where there is no magical formulas.
00:14:39:00 - 00:14:42:08
Hampus Jakobsson
They're like, if we build a base on the moon, how on.
00:14:42:08 - 00:14:43:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Earth will we sustain.
00:14:43:07 - 00:14:45:09
Hampus Jakobsson
That economically? Who will pay for it?
00:14:45:11 - 00:14:48:24
Hampus Jakobsson
And like, you know, you know, like there's a.
00:14:49:01 - 00:14:49:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Goal in the.
00:14:49:13 - 00:14:53:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Genius and amazing at the book, like Helen Walker, it's an extraordinary good book.
00:14:53:11 - 00:14:55:08
Hampus Jakobsson
It's it's about the.
00:14:55:10 - 00:15:08:12
Hampus Jakobsson
shift of the century. It's 20th century. So it's like 1905 in New York. And the two characters is a Jewish clay golem and, a female, which is huge clay golem and a male, fire spirit, the genie. All right. Rubin, genie who kind of falls in love.
00:15:08:14 - 00:15:19:13
Hampus Jakobsson
And what's really amazing about it is that Helen Walker is able to talk about gender, 1905, in New York in a way that gets known each year to jerk response, because it's not about a man and a woman.
00:15:19:13 - 00:15:21:13
Hampus Jakobsson
It's I mean, for gods sake, it's about a golem.
00:15:21:13 - 00:15:23:10
Hampus Jakobsson
And a genie. But the thing is that the.
00:15:23:10 - 00:15:25:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Stereotypes of Golem and Genie are very gender.
00:15:25:15 - 00:15:27:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Stereotypical, which means that it tricks.
00:15:27:13 - 00:15:28:11
Hampus Jakobsson
The reader into reading.
00:15:28:11 - 00:15:45:00
Hampus Jakobsson
It and not getting any knee jerk response, but still realizing that these roles, they're so segmented and it's so interesting to read about it. And it's an historical fiction novel about New York in the turn of the century. So like, there's so much fact, but it's there's so much people, and I really love that.
00:15:45:02 - 00:15:47:20
Christian Soschner
I think points I completely agree to the empathy part.
00:15:47:20 - 00:16:00:00
Christian Soschner
It's, helps understanding people better. You mentioned a couple of times gender, in your opinion, what makes this topic important to stays in the business world?
00:16:00:02 - 00:16:00:17
Hampus Jakobsson
I think the for
00:16:00:17 - 00:16:02:07
Hampus Jakobsson
me is that.
00:16:02:09 - 00:16:05:13
Hampus Jakobsson
I truly, truly believe that.
00:16:05:15 - 00:16:10:03
Hampus Jakobsson
There's an inner life and an outer life of every person, and we're just oversimplified it so absurdly.
00:16:10:03 - 00:16:11:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Much. I think we look at people.
00:16:11:22 - 00:16:18:03
Hampus Jakobsson
And when we see them after one minute, we have just inferred all of our previous historical knowledge upon them. And we know who they are.
00:16:18:05 - 00:16:24:01
Hampus Jakobsson
And their inner life is completely different most often. And I think that one of the things that I.
00:16:24:07 - 00:16:25:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Was extremely lucky about.
00:16:25:17 - 00:16:28:02
Hampus Jakobsson
When I was a kid is that I've kind of been in a.
00:16:28:02 - 00:16:30:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Situation where I've, I feel like I've always been.
00:16:30:06 - 00:16:33:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Allowed to be my quirky self. And it's very easy to say.
00:16:33:02 - 00:16:39:04
Hampus Jakobsson
That I was like, you know, white man living like, you know, being born and bred in a kind of socialist kind of very.
00:16:39:04 - 00:16:41:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Stable country. But I think that I had this.
00:16:41:10 - 00:16:47:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Really lucky moment. it was great. When I was a kid, I came home from school and, like, drawn a thing. And my oldest brother is 11.
00:16:47:24 - 00:16:49:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Years older than I am. And I put.
00:16:49:11 - 00:16:57:08
Hampus Jakobsson
My I think it was an apple or something. I draw and I put it on the fridge at home and I was super proud of like my beautiful apple. Seven year old thing drawing. Probably not very good.
00:16:57:10 - 00:16:57:23
Hampus Jakobsson
and next to.
00:16:57:23 - 00:17:07:04
Hampus Jakobsson
It was like a very awesome me, handmade version of an M.C. Escher. Like that Dutch artist, like a extraordinary three dimensional drawing that now this part I had done.
00:17:07:10 - 00:17:11:09
Hampus Jakobsson
And I looked at it and I realized that objectively, I just sucked. Like I saw.
00:17:11:09 - 00:17:11:24
Hampus Jakobsson
That, like, he's.
00:17:11:24 - 00:17:14:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Good, I'm bad. And he was like, just I just like, you know.
00:17:14:24 - 00:17:17:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Lowered my shoulders in the bad way. I'm like, I felt my heart sinking.
00:17:17:13 - 00:17:32:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Like I suck. okay. To that. I was really happy about my apple. And then my dad came in and he looked at it and he was like, oh, it's amazing. Very nice. Done. It was really nice of you. And what happened to me is like, I realized for that second is that I suck, but I'm accepted anyway.
00:17:32:15 - 00:17:33:06
Hampus Jakobsson
And the funny thing.
00:17:33:06 - 00:17:39:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Is, like, I didn't understand the truth, which maybe the apple looks good, I don't know. And also that parents love their kids unconditionally quite, quite a lot.
00:17:39:05 - 00:17:46:05
Hampus Jakobsson
But I think what's really good for me is like, I realized that moment, like, if I want to at a party, talk to somebody about.
00:17:46:07 - 00:17:47:18
Hampus Jakobsson
the Crystal sports.
00:17:47:20 - 00:17:52:01
Hampus Jakobsson
I should be allowed to do that. Like, I shouldn't be like, what's what am I supposed to say?
00:17:52:01 - 00:17:56:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Oh, interest rate is going high. And how is the weather? so.
00:17:56:09 - 00:17:58:08
Hampus Jakobsson
I can't do that. I can't talk like I'm.
00:17:58:08 - 00:18:00:10
Hampus Jakobsson
The person that always says the thing that gets people.
00:18:00:10 - 00:18:03:22
Hampus Jakobsson
A bit like, why the fuck you're talking about this? Like, I really enjoy, like, just.
00:18:04:01 - 00:18:05:08
Hampus Jakobsson
These conversations because those are real.
00:18:05:08 - 00:18:14:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Conversations about anything. and I think that I really, truly believe that, like, internally, I'm not one person. I am like.
00:18:14:08 - 00:18:18:02
Hampus Jakobsson
An emergent phenomenon by like lots of parts of my brain that are trying to stabilize different things.
00:18:18:02 - 00:18:23:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Right now. And if you sat down with me and told me that I was actually a woman and my body.
00:18:23:06 - 00:18:24:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Look the way I was.
00:18:24:08 - 00:18:29:10
Hampus Jakobsson
But I was actually a woman, I think that I would like, you know, I think I would like, act differently.
00:18:29:10 - 00:18:30:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Because you told me I.
00:18:30:05 - 00:18:46:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Was a woman and I think that I would, I don't I'm not sure if that's for the better or the worse. And I think it was fascinating. It's like just, you know, ten, 20 years ago, this was not a debate, like you're inside or outside of the same. And I think gender is, for me, just a lens on neurodivergent in general.
00:18:46:10 - 00:18:50:13
Hampus Jakobsson
It just shows that we should not be like, you know, we should.
00:18:50:17 - 00:18:51:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Go further than just the.
00:18:51:19 - 00:18:53:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Surface.
00:18:53:10 - 00:18:56:06
Christian Soschner
How much further should we go, in your opinion?
00:18:56:08 - 00:19:00:00
Hampus Jakobsson
I think that that, this actually is a really good question. I actually think one.
00:19:00:05 - 00:19:01:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Complicated thing I think about this actually a.
00:19:01:17 - 00:19:09:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Lot is I think that sometimes I think that any kind of labeling, labeling is great. Like if you taste a wine, if you can like use you, you kind of sense the.
00:19:09:23 - 00:19:16:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Tannins, then you're like, okay, this is like oak flavored that allows you to dig deeper and find the blackberry or the chocolate or whatever you're looking for.
00:19:16:10 - 00:19:30:15
Hampus Jakobsson
But sometimes I think that when we do that with people, I think we're underestimating that multiplicity. And like the, the, the, all the kinds of people who are internally. So sometimes if, if, you know, for given a diagnosis or just any kind of label, you're just like.
00:19:30:17 - 00:19:31:22
Hampus Jakobsson
oh, it's sorry, it's just.
00:19:31:22 - 00:19:34:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Me, like, oh, like I have ADHD.
00:19:34:13 - 00:19:36:10
Hampus Jakobsson
I'm really sorry. It's very hard for me to do this.
00:19:36:12 - 00:19:37:20
Hampus Jakobsson
I think that sometimes can.
00:19:37:20 - 00:19:39:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Be a relief for the person.
00:19:39:00 - 00:19:46:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Saying it, but sometimes I think it gives you a bit of an excuse to kind of behave however you want. And I think that I, I'm not really personally settled where I'm on this one.
00:19:46:24 - 00:19:51:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Like I do quite a lot with my wife. My wife is that highly sensitive person. So HSP what it's called.
00:19:52:01 - 00:19:54:20
Hampus Jakobsson
And it's and like, and she's very charted and it's funny.
00:19:54:20 - 00:19:57:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Because like, we have this very good joke and I think that the boundaries.
00:19:57:18 - 00:19:58:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Okay.
00:19:58:09 - 00:20:00:17
Hampus Jakobsson
But sometimes she says like, well, I just need this P. This is really.
00:20:00:17 - 00:20:01:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Hard.
00:20:01:19 - 00:20:04:03
Hampus Jakobsson
like and then usually I say like as a.
00:20:04:05 - 00:20:06:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Q two sr, I need.
00:20:06:03 - 00:20:08:02
Hampus Jakobsson
To do really weird jokes or something, and I.
00:20:08:02 - 00:20:10:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Just like, it's a banter between us, and I wouldn't want.
00:20:10:04 - 00:20:12:23
Hampus Jakobsson
To do it in the public room, because I think that people can feel really insulted because.
00:20:13:04 - 00:20:23:05
Hampus Jakobsson
You don't know how I like how it feels for me. And I understand that. And I think that's why we need a lot of acceptance for that. The miles you've traveled are your miles, but I'm sometimes.
00:20:23:05 - 00:20:25:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Worried that for me at least, it's.
00:20:25:16 - 00:20:27:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Like only in my own.
00:20:27:17 - 00:20:29:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Not caring about your journey at all.
00:20:29:20 - 00:20:32:01
Hampus Jakobsson
If somebody told me this.
00:20:32:01 - 00:20:36:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Is the description of how you are, I'm afraid that I would actually act differently.
00:20:36:11 - 00:20:37:18
Hampus Jakobsson
I think it would be comforting.
00:20:37:20 - 00:20:41:05
Hampus Jakobsson
But I think there's a risk that I think that I would lean further into that.
00:20:41:07 - 00:20:43:10
Hampus Jakobsson
and I don't know, I don't know, I am really.
00:20:43:10 - 00:20:48:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Happy that we do talk about this, but I think that it's a very good question of how we handle it in the public discourse.
00:20:48:21 - 00:20:49:15
Hampus Jakobsson
I think that's also.
00:20:49:15 - 00:20:57:21
Hampus Jakobsson
I think, a very interesting thing about culpability. If you take it even further, like if you say that this person shot this person and they say, oh, they have this diagnosis.
00:20:57:23 - 00:21:00:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Does that mean they go to jail or not? And I think that's.
00:21:00:24 - 00:21:02:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Becomes very interesting. And I think then you get back into.
00:21:02:19 - 00:21:04:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Why do we have jails? Do we have.
00:21:04:19 - 00:21:09:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Jails to keep people away from society, then it doesn't matter what your diagnosis. It's because if you're dangerous to society.
00:21:09:13 - 00:21:09:23
Hampus Jakobsson
But do.
00:21:09:23 - 00:21:11:13
Hampus Jakobsson
We, instead of a more.
00:21:11:14 - 00:21:13:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Christian view, do we put people in jail to punish.
00:21:13:24 - 00:21:14:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Them for what they.
00:21:14:12 - 00:21:15:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Did? Then?
00:21:15:09 - 00:21:16:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Culpability is very important. Does like.
00:21:16:18 - 00:21:20:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Are they actually to blame for what they did, or are we to put people.
00:21:20:12 - 00:21:20:24
Hampus Jakobsson
In prison to.
00:21:20:24 - 00:21:23:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Retrain them? Then we have to ask a question of how.
00:21:23:14 - 00:21:25:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Possibilities to retrain a person.
00:21:25:10 - 00:21:25:24
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that.
00:21:25:24 - 00:21:29:23
Hampus Jakobsson
This, I think, is what I love about when you get in these conversations, because then you get to talk about fabric.
00:21:29:23 - 00:21:33:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Of society and, and one thing I love is.
00:21:33:01 - 00:21:33:24
Hampus Jakobsson
That I love when.
00:21:34:04 - 00:21:35:19
Hampus Jakobsson
We introduce a new thing.
00:21:35:21 - 00:21:38:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Like gender or Bitcoin or anything.
00:21:38:13 - 00:21:43:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Else, and it allows us to stare at the old system. And I think that, you know, when.
00:21:43:13 - 00:21:45:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Bitcoin came around, people were like, it's.
00:21:45:02 - 00:22:00:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Not real money. And it's like, you know, it's just because we all like believe it's real. And then just like hold up a dollar bill and like what is this? Then it's just because we all believe it's real. Like this is all fake. And I think those things are so great because sometimes maybe Bitcoin should be or shouldn't be, but.
00:22:00:08 - 00:22:05:02
Hampus Jakobsson
But the most important part of it is allows us to have a metaphysical and conceptual conversation about.
00:22:05:02 - 00:22:05:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Money and
00:22:05:16 - 00:22:06:05
Hampus Jakobsson
value.
00:22:06:05 - 00:22:08:16
Hampus Jakobsson
And is it store of value? Is is it.
00:22:08:18 - 00:22:13:06
Hampus Jakobsson
You know, what is it actually? And I think that we need that conversation about many things, be it gender.
00:22:13:06 - 00:22:14:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Be it identity, be.
00:22:14:04 - 00:22:15:05
Hampus Jakobsson
It money, be it, you.
00:22:15:05 - 00:22:19:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Know, probability. I think it's really good to just to zoom out, sometimes have this conversation.
00:22:19:05 - 00:22:19:09
Christian Soschner
Not
00:22:19:09 - 00:22:37:18
Christian Soschner
quite points, quite points. You mentioned, labels in to set, your opinion when to be labeled. So what does it help, labeling something describing it clearly. And when is it hindering?
00:22:37:20 - 00:22:38:08
Hampus Jakobsson
I think that
00:22:38:08 - 00:22:41:19
Hampus Jakobsson
labels are extraordinary. Yeah. For very fast communication.
00:22:41:21 - 00:22:42:23
Hampus Jakobsson
I think that I think.
00:22:42:23 - 00:22:52:23
Hampus Jakobsson
We've all been in a situation where I, like you and I are going to watch a movie and I say, oh, I really want to watch this movie, Kristen. It's really great. It's one of my favorite horror movies. And you'll be like, I don't want to watch more horror movies. Like, I'm sorry, I'm not doing horror. I know I was.
00:22:52:23 - 00:22:53:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, oh.
00:22:53:13 - 00:22:54:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Okay, sorry. Okay, let's move on.
00:22:54:20 - 00:22:58:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Yeah, I really like this feel good movie. I like I'm into feel good. So, you know, so I think it's really.
00:22:58:10 - 00:23:03:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Good because it allows us to quickly kind of traverse large landscapes and be like, sorry.
00:23:03:14 - 00:23:04:10
Hampus Jakobsson
I think the danger.
00:23:04:10 - 00:23:10:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Part is, I think that sometimes I think that we box our mind into stuff when we don't allow, like we don't allow certain fields to be.
00:23:10:21 - 00:23:21:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Traveled. And I think the headache is often that, like, it's not that we're not allowed. Allowed. It's like, I think there's so many levels of allowed, right? Like like it's the.
00:23:21:02 - 00:23:22:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Great I think I love this quote.
00:23:23:13 - 00:23:26:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Which is technology enabled. Culture decides.
00:23:26:14 - 00:23:31:09
Hampus Jakobsson
and it's the same that, you know, like the same here. It's like it's not that you're not allowed to date.
00:23:31:09 - 00:23:34:16
Hampus Jakobsson
People who have another physical body than you have or.
00:23:34:19 - 00:23:38:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Should or should not, but the headache is it comes in layers. It's like you might feel.
00:23:38:24 - 00:23:39:09
Hampus Jakobsson
That you're not.
00:23:39:09 - 00:23:41:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Allowed you you might, quote.
00:23:41:09 - 00:23:42:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Unquote, know that your parents would allow.
00:23:42:24 - 00:23:43:05
Hampus Jakobsson
You.
00:23:43:07 - 00:23:45:09
Hampus Jakobsson
You might quote unquote know that society wouldn't.
00:23:45:09 - 00:23:46:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Allow it. You might actually legally.
00:23:46:23 - 00:23:48:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Know that's a side of it now, because you're in a country that.
00:23:48:20 - 00:23:53:19
Hampus Jakobsson
That means death. and I think these things I think labeling makes it very complicated.
00:23:53:21 - 00:23:54:09
Hampus Jakobsson
because then.
00:23:54:09 - 00:23:59:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Suddenly you actually you see the label and you're like, I don't like horror movies. And I can be no, no.
00:23:59:18 - 00:24:08:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Last of Us is not a horror movie. It's actually an extraordinary TV series. I think it's one of the best TV series. Episode three is one of the best episodes done in a long time in TV series.
00:24:08:05 - 00:24:16:22
Hampus Jakobsson
And you'll be like, I don't want to watch horror movies I don't like. I shouldn't have said horror. It's sure there are a couple of like, campy moments, and I hate horror movies too, but there's something.
00:24:16:22 - 00:24:17:15
Hampus Jakobsson
In it that is really.
00:24:17:15 - 00:24:18:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Human.
00:24:18:05 - 00:24:19:09
Hampus Jakobsson
And like, really about Love.
00:24:19:09 - 00:24:25:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Actually. And you're like, oh, I hate love movies. I would like Christmas. Not that kind of love movie, you know? I mean, and now you don't want to watch The Last of.
00:24:25:21 - 00:24:29:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Us because you think it's a love horror movie. And that sounds like the worst combo.
00:24:29:02 - 00:24:33:19
Hampus Jakobsson
And it's one of those things that, how do I then do it? Like, you know, I think that if you go.
00:24:33:19 - 00:24:37:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Back to wine tasting, we always been in that situation, like, I don't like red wines or I don't like.
00:24:37:07 - 00:24:40:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Italian wines. It's like, have you tried all Italian wines?
00:24:40:23 - 00:24:45:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Obviously not. Like it's a really strange way to say it's,
00:24:45:04 - 00:25:02:09
Christian Soschner
I'm sweating. I live in Vienna, so Vienna is a very nice place to live. It's, it's a high quality of living, a high living standards. But on the other side, on the flip side, it's not the friendliest population here. So it was. My big thing is that I don't like this. I don't like that. I don't like this.
00:25:02:15 - 00:25:06:20
Christian Soschner
So it is kind of sort of living in Vienna, basically. as a sad joke.
00:25:06:22 - 00:25:10:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Let's try it. I think it's better, but I can't comment on that. I think that I don't like.
00:25:10:05 - 00:25:11:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Have you seen that written
00:25:11:09 - 00:25:19:05
Hampus Jakobsson
for that map of like, I mean, tolerance, technology and talent. like where like like things. Boom. Right. You want really strong university. You want to through a lot of talent, right?
00:25:19:08 - 00:25:23:18
Hampus Jakobsson
You you want yeah. But to top to, you want talent.
00:25:23:18 - 00:25:28:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Technology ones like, you know, really hard core, like, you know, the Stanford or the Cisco's or whatever.
00:25:28:22 - 00:25:31:10
Hampus Jakobsson
But then you also need tolerance. So the thing is.
00:25:31:10 - 00:25:33:14
Hampus Jakobsson
That what makes certain parts of the globe really.
00:25:33:14 - 00:25:36:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Like vibrant is that they have tolerance. And I think.
00:25:36:13 - 00:25:37:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Conservative ism isn't the most.
00:25:37:24 - 00:25:39:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Tolerant. And I think that almost all.
00:25:39:23 - 00:25:44:12
Hampus Jakobsson
People go through this when when they're young, they're like super, super tolerant and super, super liberal.
00:25:44:18 - 00:25:47:04
Hampus Jakobsson
And then they come into their like 25.
00:25:47:04 - 00:25:51:22
Hampus Jakobsson
30s and then they start paying loan for their house and the interest rate and the mortgages and none of that.
00:25:52:01 - 00:25:52:11
Hampus Jakobsson
And they become.
00:25:52:11 - 00:25:56:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Less and less tolerant that other people are messing up the street and waste and immigration and they get really angry about it.
00:25:57:01 - 00:25:57:20
Hampus Jakobsson
And then in the.
00:25:57:23 - 00:25:59:20
Hampus Jakobsson
In their 60s and 70 and 80s, they kind of.
00:25:59:20 - 00:26:01:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Relax and be like, we should all just love each.
00:26:01:13 - 00:26:02:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Other. And I think.
00:26:02:00 - 00:26:04:01
Hampus Jakobsson
It's this funny curve of like liberal.
00:26:04:01 - 00:26:04:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Conservative.
00:26:04:13 - 00:26:05:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Liberal.
00:26:05:04 - 00:26:20:02
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that then, of course you have to like geographical areas which are extremely liberal or extremely conservative. And I like, one of our companies and a good friend, Chris, who lives in Vienna. We always talk about the fact that Vienna is like, one of the best places on the world to live. And it's funny, it is like, actually, statistically with a lot of them.
00:26:20:03 - 00:26:24:02
Hampus Jakobsson
And but it's still hard because it's very comfortable.
00:26:24:04 - 00:26:25:02
Christian Soschner
you mentioned tolerance,
00:26:25:02 - 00:26:32:15
Christian Soschner
which I found quite interesting. can you, expand a little bit further? but does tolerance mean to you?
00:26:32:17 - 00:26:33:16
Hampus Jakobsson
I think that I mean, their.
00:26:33:16 - 00:26:35:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Tolerance in two aspects. I think
00:26:35:06 - 00:26:53:21
Hampus Jakobsson
that I think that there's a tolerance which I think is more like a stoic part of tolerance, which I think I think is which is just like what? What are you willing to put up with? Like, you know, it's like somebody does like if somebody would, like, stick their fingers in front of their eyes or have their have a voice that irritates you or something, that's just like the microaggressions of the day where you like, it's it's frustrates.
00:26:53:21 - 00:26:54:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Me, but.
00:26:54:10 - 00:26:55:22
Hampus Jakobsson
I think there is a deeper thing which.
00:26:55:22 - 00:26:56:24
Hampus Jakobsson
You don't even understand.
00:26:56:24 - 00:26:59:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Where like, are you tolerant to other.
00:26:59:03 - 00:27:07:01
Hampus Jakobsson
People's views of life? It's like, you know, and I think that's I think the thing for me, it's like. Like in computer.
00:27:07:01 - 00:27:24:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Science, you always talk about when you design algorithms, you talk about explore versus exploit. another amazing book, which is like, like in the book now, Algorithms to Live by, extraordinary book, which takes big algorithms. And it actually you apply them to human situations like finding out, an apartment to live in and stuff like that.
00:27:24:05 - 00:27:25:06
Hampus Jakobsson
It's a really good book.
00:27:25:08 - 00:27:29:09
Hampus Jakobsson
And, and I think that I think we ask ourselves, it's like, are you.
00:27:29:09 - 00:27:30:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Currently in explore or exploit.
00:27:30:23 - 00:27:32:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Mode and explore?
00:27:32:00 - 00:27:33:23
Hampus Jakobsson
And algorithms means that you try to find.
00:27:33:23 - 00:27:34:24
Hampus Jakobsson
New solutions and.
00:27:34:24 - 00:27:36:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Exploit means like you're trying to find the best, quickest way.
00:27:37:00 - 00:27:38:00
Hampus Jakobsson
So if you go to Netflix.
00:27:38:00 - 00:27:43:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Right now and read the recommendations for you, probably 80% of the movies or TV series in front of you are exploited.
00:27:43:10 - 00:27:46:10
Hampus Jakobsson
It's like what they think you would like and then 1,020% are.
00:27:46:10 - 00:27:47:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Explore where they're like.
00:27:47:09 - 00:27:53:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Maybe like this I need to know. And the only way to learn is you have to have explore. Like if I only show you explore it, the thing is.
00:27:53:22 - 00:27:58:00
Hampus Jakobsson
That you will be satisfied, but I will never learn and therefore you will give up on me. And actually.
00:27:58:02 - 00:28:00:05
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that one of the other interesting thing about explore versus.
00:28:00:05 - 00:28:06:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Exploit, it's like when you're a kid, you have extraordinary high explore, like you just put anything in her mouth to feel like, well, this kill me. How does it taste?
00:28:06:23 - 00:28:12:03
Hampus Jakobsson
And the older you get, the more exploit you feel like if you ask, like your old uncle.
00:28:12:03 - 00:28:14:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Or on toast, like in their 80s.
00:28:14:06 - 00:28:14:11
Hampus Jakobsson
They.
00:28:14:11 - 00:28:15:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Go to the same restaurant.
00:28:15:08 - 00:28:18:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Every day. And the reason is simple they might not live to have four more meals.
00:28:18:09 - 00:28:19:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Out, so they they're going to.
00:28:19:07 - 00:28:25:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Goddamn have the v. Interesting. So like, they like and I think that like I understand that and it's really funny because like I think that's.
00:28:25:10 - 00:28:27:23
Hampus Jakobsson
A question I usually ask myself, like I am very much in.
00:28:27:23 - 00:28:31:18
Hampus Jakobsson
In a perpetual, exploring mode, like I am.
00:28:31:18 - 00:28:32:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Very uninterested.
00:28:32:18 - 00:28:36:00
Hampus Jakobsson
In, in like in, like leveraging.
00:28:36:00 - 00:28:42:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Blah, blah, blah and like making sure like I think that I could chosen careers to like, be more like higher status and wealthier whatever I want because I would have.
00:28:42:19 - 00:28:43:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Like honed.
00:28:43:08 - 00:28:44:03
Hampus Jakobsson
In on what I'm really good.
00:28:44:03 - 00:28:48:02
Hampus Jakobsson
At, but I usually feel like I'm actually on the opposite. I feel like any time in life I've been.
00:28:48:05 - 00:28:50:02
Hampus Jakobsson
The smartest person in the room.
00:28:50:04 - 00:28:51:24
Hampus Jakobsson
I usually try to find other rooms.
00:28:52:01 - 00:28:55:19
Hampus Jakobsson
I just feel like I don't want to be in this room, because I don't want to be in the room where I'm not learning. I want to be in the room.
00:28:55:19 - 00:29:09:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Where I like. I am trying to learn, and I think maybe that's comes from upbringing. Like if you're if you have first child, like, I had ten years of my life, more like 50 years of my life when I was the least knowledgeable. Right? Like I had no idea what's going on. I'm just trying, struggling to keep up with the pace.
00:29:10:00 - 00:29:15:11
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think, I think I've been shaped in that person so much that the second somebody turns around and says, genuinely.
00:29:15:17 - 00:29:17:06
Hampus Jakobsson
What do you think? And we're going to do.
00:29:17:06 - 00:29:17:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Exactly.
00:29:17:18 - 00:29:18:05
Hampus Jakobsson
What you say.
00:29:18:05 - 00:29:18:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Right now.
00:29:18:24 - 00:29:21:21
Hampus Jakobsson
I feel really uncomfortable because that never happened. When I was a
00:29:21:21 - 00:29:26:03
Hampus Jakobsson
kid.
00:29:26:05 - 00:29:44:09
Christian Soschner
but questions of tolerance, still remains. I would like to hear your opinion on that. is there any boundary to tolerance? All right. in your opinion, does it mean, being tolerant is accepting everything that happens in the world? Or is there any, line to say, okay, no, this is too far?
00:29:44:11 - 00:29:46:12
Hampus Jakobsson
No. I'm simply I know that's a very good question. I think.
00:29:46:13 - 00:29:47:24
Hampus Jakobsson
That I am I think.
00:29:47:24 - 00:29:56:12
Hampus Jakobsson
That, I'm very much in Bernier. Benjamin Franklin, wrote this. Put it. Don't put it. Other people's minds, I think, don't pollute. I think it's like what he wrote. and I think that the thing for me is.
00:29:56:12 - 00:30:01:10
Hampus Jakobsson
That I think whatever you do, you do, you like whatever, like, however.
00:30:01:10 - 00:30:02:24
Hampus Jakobsson
You want to figure out what you're doing, I kind.
00:30:02:24 - 00:30:03:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Of I'm okay.
00:30:03:10 - 00:30:03:16
Hampus Jakobsson
With it.
00:30:03:16 - 00:30:06:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, I don't actually think that sometimes.
00:30:06:02 - 00:30:12:03
Hampus Jakobsson
When I get frustrated, I try to imagine myself that life is a single player game and everyone else is an NPC, like an on player character.
00:30:12:08 - 00:30:23:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Which means that like, I'm nothing like I kind of what what am I supposed to say? Like, can I mess with you like, like it? Just why would I do that? Like, let me play me like I'm me, right? And I think that's really good because it helps me.
00:30:23:00 - 00:30:24:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Just realize that.
00:30:24:04 - 00:30:27:01
Hampus Jakobsson
But when somebody else does something that.
00:30:27:01 - 00:30:28:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Hurts other people.
00:30:28:08 - 00:30:36:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Pollutes or anyway, I think then they're overstepping that line. like you do you? But if you suddenly do something to other people, you're actually you're circles.
00:30:36:14 - 00:30:37:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Are crossing now.
00:30:37:04 - 00:30:52:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Like you have to be tolerant to other people now. You have to realize that you're now oppressing. And I think that's and I think that's that I think is very tricky for me. And I think that I actually I can be I can actually get absurdly.
00:30:52:04 - 00:30:53:00
Hampus Jakobsson
And very strangely.
00:30:53:00 - 00:30:54:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Sad when.
00:30:54:02 - 00:30:56:13
Hampus Jakobsson
People.
00:30:56:15 - 00:30:57:22
Hampus Jakobsson
like when people are.
00:30:57:22 - 00:31:02:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Nasty to other people or when actually people are nasty to dead objects. I think if you think about.
00:31:02:00 - 00:31:02:24
Hampus Jakobsson
It like, I can get.
00:31:02:24 - 00:31:06:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Really, really sad when people like, chop down a tree or.
00:31:06:17 - 00:31:12:15
Hampus Jakobsson
in the beginning of the was it the era was, one of the when they,
00:31:12:17 - 00:31:18:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, invaded Syria, they burned the library. No, it's older than that. They burned the library. And I was sitting with my wife in the,
00:31:18:18 - 00:31:21:00
Hampus Jakobsson
And watching the news and was a crying.
00:31:21:00 - 00:31:23:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, extraordinary. and my wife was like.
00:31:23:14 - 00:31:36:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Oh, yeah, it's horrible. And I was like, why? Why they why the funny burning library? And my wife was like, well, yeah, I know, that's horrible. But like, but I realized, I mean, like, I like it. Maybe it's like the fact that, like building these systems, these.
00:31:36:14 - 00:31:37:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Exponential.
00:31:37:04 - 00:31:39:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Building systems, like if we created like.
00:31:39:12 - 00:31:49:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Institutions or wisdoms or knowledges or anything, if you just destroy them for destruction sake because you're angry at something, I think that you're destroying the fibers of society. So I.
00:31:49:04 - 00:31:49:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Think that's.
00:31:49:13 - 00:31:53:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Makes it really hard for me. so I think that the three pillars that constitute.
00:31:53:06 - 00:31:54:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Me are.
00:31:54:01 - 00:31:56:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Are trusted institutions and each.
00:31:56:00 - 00:32:06:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Other. It's inequality and it's climate change. And I think if you look at those three, I think that for me it's really about like you crossing a boundary to another person like you. You don't actually inequality. It's like a systemic.
00:32:06:14 - 00:32:08:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Problem of you not allowing people to.
00:32:08:00 - 00:32:15:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Be people. and like, you think you're above that people. and I think there's a reason for that because as they say, you know.
00:32:15:05 - 00:32:15:24
Hampus Jakobsson
If you were brought up in.
00:32:15:24 - 00:32:20:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Privilege, then equality looks like oppression. So like if you used to, Laura.
00:32:20:19 - 00:32:27:16
Hampus Jakobsson
If somebody says everybody should vote, like, of course, for you, what happen is like for all of the rest of us like that, they got up. But for you, what it feels like is.
00:32:27:16 - 00:32:31:18
Hampus Jakobsson
You went down. So of course you get angry when people, like, put you down. you used.
00:32:31:18 - 00:32:33:04
Hampus Jakobsson
About 100% of the votes. Now you have.
00:32:33:04 - 00:32:42:08
Hampus Jakobsson
50% votes. That's oppression. Somebody stole 50% of your votes. and I think that I couldn't stand it. But then that's again the problem that people like, we have to be, like.
00:32:42:08 - 00:32:43:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Tolerant to realize that's.
00:32:43:07 - 00:32:46:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Not everybody's coming from that journey. Like, I think one of my.
00:32:46:13 - 00:33:03:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Favorite exercises I do long a lot of long distance running, and I think about a lot of time when you do long distance running, it's like you always end up running both headwind and tailwind. Whatever you do like, it's impossible because you're running really fast. And it's funny because everybody knows that it's harder to run against the wind like you know that like people running this way and it's like, oh my God, this is hard.
00:33:03:23 - 00:33:05:01
Hampus Jakobsson
But the funny fact nobody.
00:33:05:01 - 00:33:06:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Knows that it's easier to run with the wind in.
00:33:06:14 - 00:33:10:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Your back when you're running the when you're back, your you somehow.
00:33:10:23 - 00:33:13:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Can tell yourself that the reason it isn't windy today.
00:33:13:23 - 00:33:29:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Every time this happens to me, I run. And it's feel like it's not that when it's funny and I run with my oldest kid, I'm like, run is super nice. I was like, not that bad of a day. And then we turn and both are. It's like, Holy shit, it's storming today. And that's like privileges. Privileges, running with the wind in your back.
00:33:29:22 - 00:33:36:07
Hampus Jakobsson
You don't even see it. I'm like, why? Why do other people look so white in their faces? It's because they have to win in the race. And I think that's.
00:33:36:07 - 00:33:37:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, I think it's really important.
00:33:37:08 - 00:33:38:09
Hampus Jakobsson
To have that tolerance.
00:33:38:12 - 00:33:42:20
Hampus Jakobsson
But also then to realize that if you are in a privileged situation, if you're actually running with the wind in.
00:33:42:20 - 00:33:49:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Your back, you actually have to reach out and help other people. so I think that that's like one of the things and it's tricky.
00:33:49:03 - 00:33:51:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Because of course there is a boundary which you feel like.
00:33:51:06 - 00:33:54:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Let me just be me. And to be very honest, it's.
00:33:54:23 - 00:33:57:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Also that it's also a balance that I am struggling with. Personally.
00:33:57:16 - 00:33:58:09
Hampus Jakobsson
I have times.
00:33:58:09 - 00:34:08:04
Hampus Jakobsson
When I just wish I could just switch off everything, go and read one of my fiction books and not care about the world. And but it's hard because I kind of feel that I want to be able to try to make stuff better.
00:34:08:06 - 00:34:08:10
Hampus Jakobsson
and.
00:34:08:10 - 00:34:09:19
Hampus Jakobsson
It is actually a struggle to.
00:34:09:19 - 00:34:11:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Actually turn off.
00:34:11:16 - 00:34:13:11
Hampus Jakobsson
For me to just tell myself, like.
00:34:13:11 - 00:34:15:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Okay, turn off.
00:34:15:02 - 00:34:18:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Everything, don't care about anything, read this book, play this game, hang out with.
00:34:18:15 - 00:34:18:17
Hampus Jakobsson
The
00:34:18:17 - 00:34:19:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Kids.
00:34:19:11 - 00:34:23:12
Hampus Jakobsson
But it's hard to do that when you feel like the world doesn't really work.
00:34:23:14 - 00:34:48:11
Christian Soschner
Great points, great points. Running with, the wind in your back. And which leads back then to reading fiction books, to develop empathy because I think, when people don't experience how life feels, when they have a lot of, wind from the back and are pushed forward in life and privileged, it's really challenging to understand, how life can look like when people are not privileged.
00:34:48:13 - 00:35:02:06
Christian Soschner
they're great points. Maybe we, move to the entrepreneurial part of your journey. you have quite, quite a journey. And, a very successful journey. Can you share some stories from your life as an entrepreneur?
00:35:02:08 - 00:35:03:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Yeah, I can share infinite
00:35:03:05 - 00:35:03:22
Hampus Jakobsson
amount of stories.
00:35:03:24 - 00:35:04:20
Hampus Jakobsson
I mean, I mean.
00:35:04:22 - 00:35:16:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, I think that's that that the great part of being home, it's like you have a lot of great battle scars. And also the great part of like starting a company and not knowing how to do it is like, yeah, like I'm learning a lot. I think if you simplify the journey, it's like.
00:35:16:23 - 00:35:18:04
Hampus Jakobsson
I, I was I.
00:35:18:05 - 00:35:21:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Started a company with I started a company with five of my friends.
00:35:21:08 - 00:35:22:05
Hampus Jakobsson
And it was.
00:35:22:05 - 00:35:24:02
Hampus Jakobsson
A very strange situation because.
00:35:24:04 - 00:35:25:07
Hampus Jakobsson
We kind of we kind of.
00:35:25:07 - 00:35:39:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Started three companies together in one thing. So like, I was in, in London, working for a company doing computer arts in 1999, I didn't understand that it would be over in 1999. So, like, you know, the heyday of, like the.com boom, everything. You can sell anything if it has the word tech in it.
00:35:40:00 - 00:35:41:00
Hampus Jakobsson
And.
00:35:41:02 - 00:35:44:15
Hampus Jakobsson
I talked to one of my friends like, we should start, like, an arts company. This is an amazing thing.
00:35:44:19 - 00:35:45:20
Hampus Jakobsson
And then randomly, he.
00:35:45:20 - 00:35:58:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Met to somebody that became one of our first customers. We end up getting that huge, amazing opportunity to build a big arts installation in Stockholm. They were going to pay us €50,000. It was just crazy. We realized that we need to invoice for €50,000, so we need to start a.
00:35:58:14 - 00:36:00:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Company and then.
00:36:00:10 - 00:36:02:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Four other friends were like one of them was doing an.
00:36:03:02 - 00:36:04:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Ad and movie, a.
00:36:04:13 - 00:36:05:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Student movie, and it's going to be special.
00:36:05:22 - 00:36:07:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Effects. And he needed.
00:36:07:10 - 00:36:12:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Kind of a company to invoice, maybe. And then two other friends were doing consultancy for Computer Vision Company, so they kind of.
00:36:12:23 - 00:36:19:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Kind of needed a company in a way. So we said, let's set up a company. So we set up a company in this way here that no business planned is completely.
00:36:19:10 - 00:36:21:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Crazy that we did this together.
00:36:21:03 - 00:36:21:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Set up.
00:36:21:09 - 00:36:27:09
Hampus Jakobsson
This company, started like invoicing left, right and center and we were all students. So like, it was not like it was like a part time for everything and everybody.
00:36:27:11 - 00:36:28:00
Hampus Jakobsson
And we really.
00:36:28:00 - 00:36:32:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Loved being our own bosses. And even if being on bosses means you can work any 80 hours a week you want.
00:36:32:19 - 00:36:33:10
Hampus Jakobsson
It still means.
00:36:33:10 - 00:36:41:20
Hampus Jakobsson
You can actually choose. And if you're, you know, 19, 20, 21, that's actually extraordinary. Great. It's much better than having a boss in a conference room. You have to book and so on and so forth.
00:36:41:22 - 00:36:44:24
Hampus Jakobsson
So it's great. And then what happened is that we kind of.
00:36:45:01 - 00:36:48:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Pivoted straight enough from this like arts arts thing and like the other.
00:36:48:16 - 00:36:50:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Things completely randomly. What happened.
00:36:50:09 - 00:36:55:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Was that Sony and Ericsson, the big like two mobile giants, merged until this new company, Sony Ericsson.
00:36:55:15 - 00:36:56:00
Hampus Jakobsson
And,
00:36:56:06 - 00:37:11:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Sony wanted a PlayStation phone. And if you're hungry, a phone from 2000. It was like a microwave oven experience. It wasn't that amazing. And the PlayStation phones wouldn't really fit. And what happened? Computer end up being a friend of us said like, help, help, help. I'm like, I'm drowning him. This project never gonna work.
00:37:12:00 - 00:37:12:14
Hampus Jakobsson
And we kind of.
00:37:12:14 - 00:37:21:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Built a prototype over the weekend. I think that all of us, none of us wanted to do it. We kind of built it so that we kind of, kind of. When I start friends, we could get rid of this thing to just show them. It's not that.
00:37:21:05 - 00:37:22:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Hard. we kind.
00:37:22:20 - 00:37:24:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Of built this thing and very optimistically.
00:37:24:21 - 00:37:25:09
Hampus Jakobsson
And they came.
00:37:25:09 - 00:37:32:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Over and said, can we license it from you? I think we were all like, no, we don't wanna work with mobile phones. It's horrible. It's boring. It's like this small. Right?
00:37:32:21 - 00:37:33:05
Hampus Jakobsson
So we were.
00:37:33:05 - 00:37:44:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, yeah, you don't have to pay us like €50,000, because that way, you know, that was the largest amount we've ever heard. So if you say that, then of course the the people from Sony and Ericsson would be like, oh, okay. But of course it's in the corporate world, €50,000.
00:37:44:12 - 00:37:50:23
Hampus Jakobsson
It's nothing. Right. So they were just like, do you prefer model? What do you mean? All right. Like yeah yeah. Oh my god.
00:37:51:00 - 00:37:56:19
Hampus Jakobsson
So then they kind of came back. So let's do this. And we started realizing that okay, all these art stuff we did and all this thing.
00:37:56:19 - 00:37:58:20
Hampus Jakobsson
They didn't we didn't really pay it.
00:37:58:22 - 00:38:04:07
Hampus Jakobsson
So why not actually do something that paid so we can spend all the rest of the time doing really fun stuff that we really enjoyed.
00:38:04:09 - 00:38:05:09
Hampus Jakobsson
And then suddenly I think that.
00:38:05:09 - 00:38:10:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Was like, almost like, I think none of us are religious, but it seems like this Lutheran feeling of like we're doing something that we're good.
00:38:10:21 - 00:38:12:02
Hampus Jakobsson
At. It was like, guy.
00:38:12:08 - 00:38:15:24
Hampus Jakobsson
It's like the Japanese would say, like, we did something. We're good at that the customer appreciates.
00:38:16:01 - 00:38:18:24
Hampus Jakobsson
And like, it was like one of those things that.
00:38:19:01 - 00:38:21:19
Hampus Jakobsson
And then like, we learned like there were so many like aspects of it.
00:38:21:19 - 00:38:23:24
Hampus Jakobsson
And we just like, felt that this was like way.
00:38:23:24 - 00:38:25:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Better than doing the things that we felt.
00:38:25:10 - 00:38:27:21
Hampus Jakobsson
That, you know, they didn't really appreciate it.
00:38:27:21 - 00:38:30:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Or that we said, like, well, we're stretching or like we didn't really actually feel the.
00:38:30:16 - 00:38:33:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Real value in, in society. And so the company.
00:38:33:20 - 00:38:43:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Just pivoted to only doing this and then scale from the six friends to 180 people in offices in Tokyo and Taipei and Seoul and Chicago and San Francisco, and two in Sweden. And a scaling, scaling, getting a skate.
00:38:43:10 - 00:38:43:19
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think.
00:38:43:19 - 00:38:45:06
Hampus Jakobsson
One of the funniest aspect of this, for.
00:38:45:06 - 00:38:46:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Me at least, was.
00:38:46:10 - 00:38:50:04
Hampus Jakobsson
That we didn't have an adventure money. So we just scared this company. But that also meant that we.
00:38:50:06 - 00:38:52:19
Hampus Jakobsson
We didn't have any kind of real anchors.
00:38:52:19 - 00:39:01:04
Hampus Jakobsson
And it kind of when I told you it like, we're in this 300,000 people city were like, they're not like that wasn't at all a thriving startup scene. Now, there actually are quite a lot of startups.
00:39:01:06 - 00:39:01:19
Hampus Jakobsson
But that meant.
00:39:01:19 - 00:39:07:11
Hampus Jakobsson
That we got where like from, you know, people who had built these, you know, cement companies almost kind of style. Right?
00:39:07:13 - 00:39:10:09
Hampus Jakobsson
So, we end up inventing.
00:39:10:09 - 00:39:24:00
Hampus Jakobsson
So many things. One of the one days we invented a business card, which was the greatest thing ever. So what happened is that one of my colleagues, one of my co-founders, was called, and he picked up the phone and they said, hey, I'm calling from, billings, like invoicing, procurement from Sony Ericsson.
00:39:24:05 - 00:39:27:00
Hampus Jakobsson
I got this invoice and it's eight items.
00:39:27:02 - 00:39:33:02
Hampus Jakobsson
And we're supposed to pay you like €2,000, but it seems like it's €2,000 for all eight.
00:39:33:04 - 00:39:36:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Or is it per item? And he was.
00:39:36:07 - 00:39:39:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, no, it's €2,000 for all. And the first one was.
00:39:39:01 - 00:39:46:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, okay, thank you very much. and then he hung up and then he expanded the rest of us. I'm like, why? Why like this? I mean, obviously we can't divide, right?
00:39:46:17 - 00:39:49:09
Hampus Jakobsson
But it's like, you're the worst business person on the planet.
00:39:49:09 - 00:39:50:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Why didn't you even say.
00:39:50:06 - 00:39:53:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Oh, it's wrong. Let me send an updated invoice. And we could have charged them more because they didn't.
00:39:53:18 - 00:39:57:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Even care, right? I mean, I was like, oh, yeah, maybe I shouldn't.
00:39:57:05 - 00:39:58:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Talk to customers.
00:39:58:04 - 00:40:01:05
Hampus Jakobsson
And we were like, no, you should not. How do we solve this? How do we give.
00:40:01:05 - 00:40:03:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Somebody something that says, don't call him.
00:40:03:13 - 00:40:19:13
Hampus Jakobsson
We should give them something that says, call me. And it's like, yeah, I'll do that. Or we'll make a card that says, like, my name and my phone number and like, you know, customers. Now it's all called customers, business, business. So we made that like cards that said, like business and like, handed it to people and like technology.
00:40:19:13 - 00:40:20:18
Hampus Jakobsson
When it's like other aka fuckers.
00:40:20:23 - 00:40:30:02
Hampus Jakobsson
And also great because then they call the right person. And we were just like, this is genius. And like, I mean, business cards, right? Like it's just like people knew. But it's so funny that we were so.
00:40:30:02 - 00:40:31:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Elated that we thought we invented.
00:40:31:11 - 00:40:32:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Something huge. And we had, I.
00:40:32:18 - 00:40:35:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Think this first company, I think we invented air quotes.
00:40:35:14 - 00:40:48:24
Hampus Jakobsson
And that 110 things that we were like, this is amazing. And for people like, it's called an advisory board. I okay, so, oh, come. but it was really good. How many of those strange stories?
00:40:49:01 - 00:40:58:11
Christian Soschner
So basically, you started, without any experience in running companies, and you just covered everything you said?
00:40:58:13 - 00:40:59:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Yeah, exactly. The best.
00:40:59:15 - 00:41:05:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Part was when we started asking one dude for advice on how to do, just.
00:41:05:05 - 00:41:06:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Bookkeeping for.
00:41:06:07 - 00:41:14:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Another student. We're like, how do we do bookkeeping? And this guy had done his bachelor thesis in his master thesis on, like, small, medium sized company bookkeeping or something. And we're like.
00:41:14:12 - 00:41:16:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Oh, he's a genius. Like, you know, bottom.
00:41:16:10 - 00:41:20:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Beers have brought him over. And like, we showed him the books and, like, how do we do this? And he was like, this is dead.
00:41:20:08 - 00:41:32:16
Hampus Jakobsson
But it's like, oh, shit is a magician, right? And then he just looked at it and he just looked up and said, guys, you're never going to get this. Like, you're never gonna understand it. Like we're trying. And he said, can I just join you? And like, can I, can I just.
00:41:32:16 - 00:41:34:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Work part time for you and figure this.
00:41:34:01 - 00:41:45:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Out? Okay? Like, are you serious? Would you do this? Once? He was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I, you know, I would be happy to help you, right? And I was like, I was like, we hired a magician. I was like amazing. And he was.
00:41:45:08 - 00:41:46:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, walked out, remember?
00:41:46:03 - 00:41:52:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, so that's I got hired, right? And we were just like, this is the best. Like, he's happy, we're happy. And he then became.
00:41:52:07 - 00:41:52:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Our CFO.
00:41:53:00 - 00:41:53:16
Hampus Jakobsson
And it's crazy.
00:41:53:16 - 00:41:58:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, you know, we just thought he was a genius behind. But of course, like it was just because we were completely incompetent.
00:41:58:05 - 00:41:59:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Like,
00:41:59:24 - 00:42:13:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Four of us were computer science majors. and I think that, like, if it was about coding, we were all, like, super interested in it. But if it's not about coding, you were like, oh my God. And then one is, it was an architect and one it was. And so, so like, you know, none of us were into business
00:42:13:02 - 00:42:14:14
Hampus Jakobsson
whatsoever.
00:42:14:16 - 00:42:27:05
Christian Soschner
I didn't get to create space that it would like to exploit and to keep up with you. you mentioned that you founded your company after you had your first significant customer for the product.
00:42:27:05 - 00:42:27:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Yeah.
00:42:27:16 - 00:42:29:13
Christian Soschner
How did you find your customer?
00:42:29:15 - 00:42:31:16
Hampus Jakobsson
I think in this case, it was like a very
00:42:31:16 - 00:42:47:12
Hampus Jakobsson
classical way of finding enterprise customers. So what happened was that one of my friends had been at my like in London where I were, and we had talked about it like when I was in arts company and we had talked about it as a jam about this. We actually made a little demo thing of how to like, present people to how they made these lobbies of their big buildings kind of things.
00:42:47:12 - 00:43:04:02
Hampus Jakobsson
We could build them for them. Technology, blah, blah, blah. And then he was going to an arts festival, thing of it in Finland with a lot of our, like, other friends. And he was on a ferry, fairly drunk. And one of the people on this ferry was another random person who was like, you know, the same kind of car van parade to to Helsinki.
00:43:04:04 - 00:43:13:06
Hampus Jakobsson
and this guy started bragging about his mom who had this big arts exhibition in Stockholm. It's like a very she's a very, like a very famous arts journalist, science journalist, art science journalist.
00:43:13:08 - 00:43:14:18
Hampus Jakobsson
And then,
00:43:14:20 - 00:43:16:19
Hampus Jakobsson
My friend was a bit like.
00:43:16:21 - 00:43:18:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Are doing arts. I mean, in this.
00:43:18:14 - 00:43:21:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Arts can be like two drunk men. I was taking a big ferry.
00:43:21:21 - 00:43:23:00
Hampus Jakobsson
And then they were like, oh.
00:43:23:00 - 00:43:26:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Cocking each other more or less like, you know, talking about how this thing.
00:43:26:04 - 00:43:27:11
Hampus Jakobsson
And, then.
00:43:27:13 - 00:43:31:05
Hampus Jakobsson
The other guy was telling literally, my friend, it's like, you should talk to my mom. It's just like.
00:43:31:10 - 00:43:32:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Yeah, absolutely blah.
00:43:32:13 - 00:43:40:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Blah. And when they both sobered up in Finland, they're like, I'll do the intro to my mom. Because of course, both remember this was like, I don't remember the conversation, but it was something, you know, you were a genius. So let's figure this out.
00:43:41:01 - 00:43:42:10
Hampus Jakobsson
And then,
00:43:42:12 - 00:43:51:08
Hampus Jakobsson
So then it's like we had a meeting with this super famous science journalist, and she, she knows our shit, and she would not put up with a 20 year old dude who comes in and talks bullshit. So there was zero chance in hell that we would sign this. We didn't know.
00:43:51:08 - 00:43:51:24
Hampus Jakobsson
This.
00:43:52:01 - 00:44:04:17
Hampus Jakobsson
But what happened was like, this meeting was set up in Stockholm and I was flying there and I was reading good back at the moment. that moment, which is a book about recursive ness and philosophy and arts, actually being a very like, recursive artist.
00:44:04:19 - 00:44:05:09
Hampus Jakobsson
And what I didn't.
00:44:05:09 - 00:44:08:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Know was Escher was her favorite artist in the world.
00:44:08:05 - 00:44:08:11
Hampus Jakobsson
as.
00:44:08:13 - 00:44:24:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Like a science journalist. She was like, very interested in. So when she came in Science Cafe, you think about this kind of woman who's, like, tight lipped, angry at, like, teenage boys who, like, ruin the world, the kind of novel she comes in and like, she looks at the book and she's like, something's up a bit. But then she says, like, what do you think about Escher?
00:44:24:17 - 00:44:31:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Because she knows I'm going to bullshit the shit out of this, right? And because, like, my mind goes everywhere, I'm like, podcast of books or whatever, right?
00:44:31:08 - 00:44:34:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Like I essentially saying like, yeah, this is what I think and know and just.
00:44:34:05 - 00:44:36:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Sits down the art of coffee. We start talking.
00:44:36:22 - 00:44:37:07
Hampus Jakobsson
And then their.
00:44:37:07 - 00:44:42:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Conversation. She starts talking about mind and consciousness, which I'm also super into, and the book is a bit into.
00:44:42:17 - 00:44:44:21
Hampus Jakobsson
And she said, like, yeah, I'd really like you to.
00:44:44:21 - 00:44:48:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Build this arts exhibition because it's really about intersection. What we just talked about.
00:44:48:14 - 00:44:49:18
Hampus Jakobsson
And I was like, oh, and I.
00:44:49:19 - 00:44:55:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Did like show the demos or anything like prepped all these things like that very techie, like 20 year old will do the demos.
00:44:55:22 - 00:45:03:24
Hampus Jakobsson
And she was like, no, I really like that way of thinking. I'd like you to do it. And, and you're like, it's a, it's a €50,000.
00:45:04:01 - 00:45:11:24
Hampus Jakobsson
well, I don't remember what it's called anymore in arts, but it was like, get a stipend or whatever it's called. So, like, you know, honorarium. It was a €50,000 honorarium.
00:45:11:24 - 00:45:13:14
Hampus Jakobsson
So I was like, okay.
00:45:13:16 - 00:45:16:18
Hampus Jakobsson
But then preferably with invoice, that's because it's easier for us.
00:45:16:18 - 00:45:25:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Then. And I was like, okay, thank you very much. This is amazing. She was like, yeah, I have to leave now, thank you very much. But get back to me. And like, she walked out and I picked up the phone to call my friend. I think that she just said that.
00:45:25:18 - 00:45:26:21
Hampus Jakobsson
We we get €50,000.
00:45:27:00 - 00:45:39:24
Hampus Jakobsson
He was like, what? I don't know if you said like honorarium. And he was like, Wikipedia checks it, right? Like, seems like we just send them. Yeah, it's I don't know. It's like, seems like we get the cash, right. so like very, very randomly.
00:45:40:01 - 00:45:47:03
Christian Soschner
what's your background is said computer science. And how how does that play into organizing art exhibitions?
00:45:47:05 - 00:45:51:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Not at all. Not at all. What are the was that we actually build an art space. So we built.
00:45:51:12 - 00:46:02:15
Hampus Jakobsson
A big interactive art space. We actually built in this arts exhibition. The whole thing about was about mind and consciousness. It was about new discoveries about like essentially fluid consciousness. And a really interesting this is 2001.
00:46:02:17 - 00:46:04:22
Hampus Jakobsson
it's an Italian,
00:46:04:24 - 00:46:12:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Researcher that had made quite groundbreaking, thoughts about, how emotions affect and rewire consciousness and there for brains. So interesting.
00:46:12:14 - 00:46:14:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Way,
00:46:14:02 - 00:46:15:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Damasio is.
00:46:15:00 - 00:46:15:15
Hampus Jakobsson
His name.
00:46:15:17 - 00:46:36:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Antonio Damasio. and so we were supposed to build like she asked, like when we talked about this, she said, like like, you know, what could we do? And I kind of we had talked a bit about that. And the other cofounders we talked about maybe we could do like, a way where you walk into a room and it would track where you were in the room with cameras and you could see where you walked, and you kind of affected how a screen showed you what the main character thought of.
00:46:36:07 - 00:46:44:09
Hampus Jakobsson
And we kind of, you know, sparred, this, this, super famous art journalist. And I like, sparred a bit about what she would feel about this. And she was, of course, like.
00:46:44:11 - 00:46:44:15
Hampus Jakobsson
You.
00:46:44:15 - 00:46:49:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Know, being, you know, a mature, person. She had, like, good ideas of, like.
00:46:49:12 - 00:46:50:06
Hampus Jakobsson
How to hold it in.
00:46:50:12 - 00:46:55:08
Hampus Jakobsson
And because we were techies, we had, of course, great ideas about it. But again, what was possible.
00:46:55:10 - 00:46:57:23
Hampus Jakobsson
And then when we came up and started doing this, there was a.
00:46:57:23 - 00:47:09:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Whole like there were so many other like, arts people building stacks. It was a massive place. So like one of the professors of free art in Sweden, there we had me some work at the time. She was an extraordinary artist, like, know really like artist, artist still.
00:47:09:12 - 00:47:10:00
Hampus Jakobsson
And she kind.
00:47:10:00 - 00:47:11:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Of said a couple of things like, oh.
00:47:11:00 - 00:47:16:04
Hampus Jakobsson
I would love the glass to be half translucent. Really? I said, wow, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:47:16:07 - 00:47:18:09
Hampus Jakobsson
And it's like another person was like, you know.
00:47:18:11 - 00:47:22:19
Hampus Jakobsson
So like, they all said stuff to us and like, we kind of took it in and we're like, oh, interesting.
00:47:22:19 - 00:47:27:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Maybe we should do this. And like, you know, try to move around. Because in our world, technology could do anything. Right. But then what do you use it for?
00:47:28:01 - 00:47:29:03
Hampus Jakobsson
So just listening in.
00:47:29:03 - 00:47:30:17
Hampus Jakobsson
And hearing other people's advice and building our.
00:47:30:17 - 00:47:31:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Piece.
00:47:31:23 - 00:47:43:01
Hampus Jakobsson
so it was very nice. And then we built this thing and it's actually was super popular for the whole exhibition. It was really, really big because of course was interactive. It was not that complicated. A lot of these things were very kind of deep about consciousness, and ours was.
00:47:43:07 - 00:47:43:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Very.
00:47:43:13 - 00:47:58:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Playful and nice and like music and stuff. So there were a lot of like high school classes that came and they walked into it and they came out and we were one person at the entrance, one person exit of this extraordinary large room with dynamic music and videos and everything that moved. And it looked like you walked around in somebody's.
00:47:58:08 - 00:48:00:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Mind and more or less. So the funny.
00:48:00:06 - 00:48:00:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Thing is, people.
00:48:00:17 - 00:48:05:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Came out on the other end and I said, I realized that that the the whole system together, they.
00:48:05:15 - 00:48:06:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Understood that I was.
00:48:06:08 - 00:48:07:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Sad and.
00:48:07:00 - 00:48:09:14
Hampus Jakobsson
I projected sadness onto the main character.
00:48:09:16 - 00:48:12:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, how do you know I was sad?
00:48:12:02 - 00:48:24:10
Hampus Jakobsson
And I was like, you know, the true answer is like, it randomizes a feeling when a person walks into the room and it's the same trick system that way back in the day when we're in military service, tracked airplanes. So like, we like it's an airplane tracking system that randomizes an emotion for you. It's like.
00:48:24:10 - 00:48:25:10
Hampus Jakobsson
But that was not a we couldn't.
00:48:25:10 - 00:48:27:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Say that. Of course, then we would have ruined the whole illusion for people. So like.
00:48:28:00 - 00:48:28:12
Hampus Jakobsson
I.
00:48:28:14 - 00:48:30:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Can't really tell you, but of course, and.
00:48:30:05 - 00:48:31:18
Hampus Jakobsson
People like it's amazing to.
00:48:31:18 - 00:48:32:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Recognize that it's really.
00:48:32:21 - 00:48:42:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Saw how I felt. And I was like, thank you very much. This is an extraordinary experience. And we're like, thank you, thank you. And we're like, shit, how do we live up to this? so yeah.
00:48:42:07 - 00:48:47:15
Christian Soschner
So you did one exhibition, this was your first customer, then decided to to fund the company.
00:48:47:17 - 00:48:48:07
Hampus Jakobsson
how we found the.
00:48:48:07 - 00:48:55:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Company when we got the deal because we had to invoice the right, like the business plan was invoiced, and by computers. And you looked at that was the business plan.
00:48:55:06 - 00:49:00:08
Christian Soschner
So basically a business plan was, send out the first, an invoice and. Yeah.
00:49:00:10 - 00:49:06:04
Hampus Jakobsson
We were three when we started, like, one to the computer vision company, one to, you know, student film and one to this.
00:49:06:04 - 00:49:08:20
Hampus Jakobsson
So like, it was like, you know, do these things together, see what happens. And then what.
00:49:08:20 - 00:49:11:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Happened is like, we just got a lot of people who asked us questions.
00:49:11:10 - 00:49:14:00
Hampus Jakobsson
And because we were students, we were like, oh, I'd love to do that.
00:49:14:00 - 00:49:15:14
Hampus Jakobsson
That sounds fun. And then in the.
00:49:15:14 - 00:49:21:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Middle of nowhere, this like thing with Sony Ericsson had that. But then they were like, can you do this? Then we treat it as everything else. We treated.
00:49:21:06 - 00:49:21:22
Hampus Jakobsson
It.
00:49:21:24 - 00:49:28:13
Hampus Jakobsson
I think, with sincerity and seriousness in the sense that we were like, oh, let's prepare and let's be nice to them and everything and, you know, see where this
00:49:28:13 - 00:49:29:16
Hampus Jakobsson
goes.
00:49:29:18 - 00:49:35:03
Christian Soschner
How did you how did you get this, Sony Ericsson deal, but was the focus of this project.
00:49:35:05 - 00:49:43:14
Hampus Jakobsson
So the problem they had was that they tried to get these kind of screen phones to kind of, you know, like the headache is essentially if you take a microwave oven today.
00:49:43:15 - 00:49:43:21
Hampus Jakobsson
And.
00:49:43:21 - 00:49:50:13
Hampus Jakobsson
You would take it apart and you would take the screen and you would say, I want this to like, you know, have nice graphics on it. The promise if you did.
00:49:50:15 - 00:49:52:16
Hampus Jakobsson
It would be so slow.
00:49:52:18 - 00:50:05:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Because it's built to draw a certain amount of pixels on the screen. And what happens when you change the screen to like a, you know, nicer screen with more colors and more pixels? The problem is like the thing that goes that goes into the screen.
00:50:05:05 - 00:50:06:07
Hampus Jakobsson
It's supposed to push that.
00:50:06:08 - 00:50:25:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Color, said the description of it. That necessarily is not very much bigger. So the problem is like you had like that the like the screen was great to show a still image, but not to change quickly because the things that came through the pipe were too slow. So like, and that was like very much like when we were kids, we had built, you know, we'd built on a like stuff for tiny computers and stuff as.
00:50:25:12 - 00:50:27:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Hobbies and competed and like.
00:50:27:06 - 00:50:28:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Done stuff as, like.
00:50:28:02 - 00:50:29:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Just does fun stuff.
00:50:29:10 - 00:50:30:14
Hampus Jakobsson
So like for us it was like.
00:50:30:14 - 00:50:35:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Okay, interesting. How do we tell the screen that it's going to update? Maybe we can only tell the parts of the screen.
00:50:35:18 - 00:50:45:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Maybe we can tell it like and trick the eye that it does this first and that and like it saves the. And the server would think that it happened. But of course it didn't really until slightly later, but you don't really see that.
00:50:46:00 - 00:50:48:11
Hampus Jakobsson
So it was a lot of like understanding.
00:50:48:11 - 00:50:52:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Like the technologies limits, but also kind of what we could do.
00:50:52:10 - 00:50:53:09
Hampus Jakobsson
There are a lot of people that did that.
00:50:53:09 - 00:51:04:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Back in the day where like you took an old computer and you wanted to play music that wasn't possible to get out of that computer, like that audio, card. But you did it because you realized that there were, like, stuff that happened, me that did certain things.
00:51:04:10 - 00:51:04:22
Hampus Jakobsson
And some of.
00:51:04:22 - 00:51:08:19
Hampus Jakobsson
These things were even like, if you played certain tones, the box of the computer vibrated.
00:51:08:21 - 00:51:09:21
Hampus Jakobsson
And then you didn't.
00:51:09:21 - 00:51:21:09
Hampus Jakobsson
You cannot really get bass and stuff. So like if you didn't touch the keyboard of a computer, you can actually get other sounds out of it. So some people make music that like click play but then don't touch the computer because that actually sounds better because they actually use the vibration.
00:51:21:09 - 00:51:23:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Of the computer and stuff like that. So it's very much like that.
00:51:23:11 - 00:51:25:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Mindset of that.
00:51:25:09 - 00:51:25:18
Hampus Jakobsson
We just.
00:51:25:18 - 00:51:28:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Have to work with is very, very limited thing we.
00:51:28:02 - 00:51:29:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Have. And, and then.
00:51:29:18 - 00:51:30:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Like try to get it to.
00:51:30:17 - 00:51:32:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Look like good. And I.
00:51:32:06 - 00:51:36:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Think the nice thing is that when you're working in an environment like, like automotive or mobile phones.
00:51:36:20 - 00:51:38:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Interface, the thing is that there's.
00:51:38:13 - 00:51:53:04
Hampus Jakobsson
A very rigorous like testing system and like everything. So like if you do a web page today or then if you did it and it crashed like a crashed bike, you're like, oh my God, I'm really sorry. Crashed. If you're on a mobile phone or an automotive, like if you're in the factory, you do a thing and it crashes like, yeah.
00:51:53:09 - 00:51:53:15
Hampus Jakobsson
It's.
00:51:53:15 - 00:51:57:17
Hampus Jakobsson
It's nine months till you ever get to see the road anyway. So like, you can keep the training.
00:51:57:22 - 00:51:58:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Which.
00:51:58:03 - 00:52:02:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Meant that we could just, like, throw stuff in and try to fix it, and. Oh, that didn't work. Okay, let's think through.
00:52:02:12 - 00:52:04:23
Hampus Jakobsson
This and even like clicking, like.
00:52:05:03 - 00:52:07:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Transporting the code from a computer to.
00:52:07:01 - 00:52:12:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Actually a mobile phone could take like two, three, 4 or 5, six hours, which meant you sat there and thought.
00:52:12:05 - 00:52:22:04
Hampus Jakobsson
For a long time and thought, okay, I think this will work this to do this thing. And then you're like, okay, now go and do something else. Which meant that we thought about it a lot more, which created a whole different mindset.
00:52:22:04 - 00:52:23:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Right.
00:52:23:15 - 00:52:26:14
Hampus Jakobsson
so it was very interesting. And I think it was in that sense, it was say it was.
00:52:26:14 - 00:52:27:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Slow, but it was
00:52:27:15 - 00:52:28:15
Hampus Jakobsson
safe.
00:52:28:17 - 00:52:31:10
Christian Soschner
We are still late 90s with the Sony Ericsson project.
00:52:31:14 - 00:52:33:18
Hampus Jakobsson
2001 2001. Yeah, let.
00:52:33:18 - 00:52:35:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Me scare the company 2001
00:52:35:02 - 00:52:45:01
Hampus Jakobsson
two, 2002. Like that was like, I'm sorry, the arts project or 2001 2002 and then the Ericsson Sony Ericsson were like 2002, 2003. And then we met Samsung.
00:52:45:03 - 00:52:47:24
Hampus Jakobsson
I think oh four, I think it was 3 or 4. And then.
00:52:47:24 - 00:52:48:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Samsung was.
00:52:48:14 - 00:52:49:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Like.
00:52:49:06 - 00:52:53:23
Hampus Jakobsson
We're building like a new phone model every month. It's be like speed to market. And it suited our personality.
00:52:53:23 - 00:52:55:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Of being like, you know.
00:52:55:01 - 00:52:57:15
Hampus Jakobsson
21, 25 year olds, a lot more than like that very.
00:52:57:15 - 00:52:59:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Thoughtful. And we had like because.
00:52:59:18 - 00:53:06:15
Hampus Jakobsson
We'd already done like the fire test of being with Sony Ericsson. We had like we have actually had developed like a lot of like good tech that allowed it to work.
00:53:06:17 - 00:53:07:21
Hampus Jakobsson
And then we came to Samsung.
00:53:08:02 - 00:53:10:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Samsung just like whole motto.
00:53:10:17 - 00:53:11:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Was like speed.
00:53:11:21 - 00:53:22:20
Hampus Jakobsson
It was really like a fear of being late on everything, which was amazing for us. So we were just throwing questions like, do you want to build this new phone that goes to like northern China? We want to do this phone thing. It was a Thailand. You want to do this phone for Verizon US.
00:53:22:22 - 00:53:23:03
Hampus Jakobsson
And we.
00:53:23:03 - 00:53:26:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Just like tried grabbing stuff and just hired every single smart person we knew and tried to fix.
00:53:26:19 - 00:53:28:19
Hampus Jakobsson
It. And it was like, it's constant.
00:53:28:19 - 00:53:43:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, you know, craziness and like build teams and parts of the world and started meeting all kinds of customers in the whole value chain of how phone is made to like, figure out, can we get more processing power, can we get more memory, can we get better screens? What can we do? essentially because our customer said.
00:53:43:10 - 00:53:46:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, you know, it was this strange kind of era where.
00:53:46:10 - 00:53:53:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Which always happens, I guess. But the kind of top ten companies were hyper competitive, like they were all trying to win against each other.
00:53:53:03 - 00:53:53:12
Hampus Jakobsson
But it was.
00:53:53:12 - 00:53:57:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Still a market. So that, you know, Motorola and Samsung and Sony Ericsson and Nokia.
00:53:57:16 - 00:54:00:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Whatever, they couldn't ban us from working on competition.
00:54:00:20 - 00:54:10:13
Hampus Jakobsson
But they were like striving to be the best. So like, we were at like a strange situation and like I think it's a very, apt and, modern, comparison. But we were like a strange thing that's like an arms dealer.
00:54:10:13 - 00:54:12:02
Hampus Jakobsson
In a war that we were.
00:54:12:02 - 00:54:22:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Just like, oh, tell me what your needs are, and we can do a better gun so that you beat our guns in another battle, because you're going to beat us later. There. And it was really, like, amazing for us because these companies stretched us and forced us to think.
00:54:22:12 - 00:54:24:14
Hampus Jakobsson
About, okay, these people now.
00:54:24:15 - 00:54:29:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Have better planes. Now you do better, radar. Oh my God. What? We'll do a radar speed. And it was really good for us to.
00:54:29:13 - 00:54:31:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Kind of think about what happens.
00:54:31:12 - 00:54:35:17
Hampus Jakobsson
When this phones goes out in the US. And of course, not all that's going to look like an idiot.
00:54:35:19 - 00:54:40:05
Hampus Jakobsson
And the the reason it really work competitive as well is that the top.
00:54:40:05 - 00:54:52:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Five, six, six, seven, eight players, they had so different philosophies so that we weren't like breaking any legalities. Like Motorola could never do what Samsung and Samsung could never do, what Sony did and so on and so forth. So we always.
00:54:52:19 - 00:54:54:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Had to adapt and be like.
00:54:54:11 - 00:54:57:22
Hampus Jakobsson
What's the Motorola way of doing this? I can even like if Motorola says, want to do.
00:54:57:22 - 00:54:59:12
Hampus Jakobsson
This, what do they mean? Because they didn't mean.
00:54:59:12 - 00:55:04:07
Hampus Jakobsson
The same thing as Samsung says. Samsung would say, can we release it in ten days? I wants to build like an infrastructure.
00:55:04:07 - 00:55:04:20
Hampus Jakobsson
That's.
00:55:04:22 - 00:55:11:01
Hampus Jakobsson
They can mean that they were in long term. Nokia wants independence, like they don't care who we are, but they want to be able to get rid of us any day.
00:55:11:07 - 00:55:21:03
Hampus Jakobsson
So like we always had to like look at them. And then we took like the most demands from each. It's like Samsung is not done. They don't want to be dependencies either. So can we make a thing that makes them comfortable?
00:55:21:03 - 00:55:23:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Not as comfortable as Nokia? Because of course Nokia has extremely rigor.
00:55:24:02 - 00:55:25:04
Hampus Jakobsson
But like, how can we take the.
00:55:25:04 - 00:55:27:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Rigor that Nokia wants and like help Samsung feel more.
00:55:27:14 - 00:55:28:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Comfortable? How can we take.
00:55:28:18 - 00:55:30:12
Hampus Jakobsson
The long term? And I said, not all at once.
00:55:30:14 - 00:55:33:17
Hampus Jakobsson
How can we do this to them? So like we had to be all, which.
00:55:33:17 - 00:55:35:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Was really, really good for us. So we had to like learn
00:55:35:09 - 00:55:36:16
Hampus Jakobsson
not.
00:55:36:18 - 00:55:41:21
Christian Soschner
So we basically worked for our big, and tech companies back then,
00:55:41:23 - 00:55:43:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Yeah, more or less. Exactly. We end up we end up.
00:55:43:19 - 00:55:50:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Like designing Android for Google. So like we end up even building the one that try to beat everything. It was really, really strange because like, we just.
00:55:50:03 - 00:55:57:07
Christian Soschner
Just for context, this were the days of, PayPal. Google was really early, on that back in the days, like, this.
00:55:57:08 - 00:56:12:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Title came along exactly like when we started 2001, and then the company got acquired by BlackBerry in 2010. So one day it was like black BlackBerry called us and said, hey, we want to acquire you. And we were just like, sure, this is going to be just just like any customer because this has happened before that our customer said, we want to acquire you.
00:56:12:21 - 00:56:22:10
Hampus Jakobsson
But then they saw the massive monster of a company. We were on Hydra and they were like, oh, can't quite this beast of a company with offices and mess and everything. So we just thought, okay, let's go there and let's.
00:56:22:12 - 00:56:23:14
Hampus Jakobsson
You know, let's explain.
00:56:23:14 - 00:56:27:00
Hampus Jakobsson
What we do. And then they're going to open a licensee. And then after that meeting, they were like, no, we.
00:56:27:00 - 00:56:29:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Want to party. Sorry about that.
00:56:29:11 - 00:56:30:03
Hampus Jakobsson
so it was very strange.
00:56:30:17 - 00:56:55:24
Christian Soschner
But I found quite interesting in in the mobile industry back then in 2000, 2001, two, three, four, five and six, I mean, the market was shrinking. I think the best times for the moment industry was in the 90s. I gotta think, for three, 4 or 5 handsets per person. Austria. So it's, Musk was great to use this tools and interface and three, four and five.
00:56:55:24 - 00:57:21:02
Christian Soschner
The market was already shrinking. I mean, had a lot of mobile phones at home, so why should I buy another one? And, I think the market saturation was about 100% something like this. Truly. what did the industry miss? Because they were at my expectation was, okay, probably, somebody go out of business like BlackBerry. But the big names like Nokia, Sony Ericsson, one will remain.
00:57:21:07 - 00:57:29:12
Christian Soschner
And suddenly it became agog. what was this turning point? What did the entire mobile industry miss back then? Back then, in your opinion?
00:57:29:14 - 00:57:30:14
Hampus Jakobsson
I think there were many
00:57:30:14 - 00:57:30:19
Hampus Jakobsson
things.
00:57:30:19 - 00:57:32:12
Hampus Jakobsson
I think that one of the things is I think.
00:57:32:12 - 00:57:34:16
Hampus Jakobsson
That they everybody, almost.
00:57:34:16 - 00:57:36:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Every single company.
00:57:36:13 - 00:57:39:00
Hampus Jakobsson
They were it was strange enough, a.
00:57:39:00 - 00:57:42:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Competitive but also non competitive market. So like it was very strange.
00:57:42:23 - 00:57:44:10
Hampus Jakobsson
It was way more of.
00:57:44:10 - 00:57:46:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Like medieval marriages than it was anything.
00:57:46:07 - 00:57:50:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Else. So it was like not a true market. So like if you take like you know Vodafone came out.
00:57:50:22 - 00:57:58:07
Hampus Jakobsson
And like so it was very carried on like the Vodafone sim, Verizon's in the world that more or less ran the market. If you look at Japan, it was even more like NTT DoCoMo.
00:57:58:11 - 00:58:01:22
Hampus Jakobsson
They kind of they designed the phone so many aspects. And then so you had this tension.
00:58:01:22 - 00:58:04:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Between those like the rising to go to fundamentally DoCoMo.
00:58:04:16 - 00:58:08:03
Hampus Jakobsson
And then the mobile manufacturer from underneath who didn't want to just be degraded.
00:58:08:03 - 00:58:08:22
Hampus Jakobsson
To unknown.
00:58:09:02 - 00:58:10:09
Hampus Jakobsson
And like nowadays, people, I mean.
00:58:10:09 - 00:58:11:18
Hampus Jakobsson
If you look at the car industry, people go to.
00:58:11:18 - 00:58:12:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Buy a.
00:58:12:12 - 00:58:16:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Ford or Volkswagen, right? People on car buy a car from car leasing company.
00:58:17:00 - 00:58:18:14
Hampus Jakobsson
So people actually have a relationship with the car.
00:58:18:14 - 00:58:21:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Whereas the mobile phone world, many parts of the world, people actually.
00:58:21:17 - 00:58:25:10
Hampus Jakobsson
In the US, people in Japan, people bought a Verizon phone and.
00:58:25:10 - 00:58:28:19
Hampus Jakobsson
They didn't actually the only way to figure out, but finally was like you looked at the battery and saw it's a.
00:58:28:19 - 00:58:29:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Samsung phone.
00:58:29:18 - 00:58:33:21
Hampus Jakobsson
And so it was like a very strange world where this was and the thing that what happened there was like on.
00:58:33:21 - 00:58:35:24
Hampus Jakobsson
One end, the carriers pushed down.
00:58:35:24 - 00:58:40:00
Hampus Jakobsson
The market, wanted the cheapest price and didn't really care about anything because they just wanted to send bits over.
00:58:40:01 - 00:58:42:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Oh. Oh yeah. Like and then I haven't had like a lot of.
00:58:42:09 - 00:58:45:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Pride in like the, the BlackBerrys and the Nokias and the.
00:58:45:23 - 00:58:49:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Sonys who kind of kind of came with like, you know, hey, hey, we can do.
00:58:49:07 - 00:58:49:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Stuff.
00:58:49:14 - 00:58:52:17
Hampus Jakobsson
And anyway and actually people really underestimate that. Yeah.
00:58:52:19 - 00:59:04:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Nokia was like one of the absolutely biggest ones. And the market really expanded actually in a lot of apps and like because I mean, a lot of the price countries like and so like, you know, in Brazil, India, China and a lot of the emerging markets online in the African continent.
00:59:04:20 - 00:59:07:06
Hampus Jakobsson
They actually sold quite a lot of thoughts. anyway.
00:59:07:06 - 00:59:11:05
Hampus Jakobsson
And they actually made a lot of money. But of course in Europe are like gives oversaturated.
00:59:11:07 - 00:59:14:02
Hampus Jakobsson
So like there was so strange tension battle which and then there were.
00:59:14:02 - 00:59:17:15
Hampus Jakobsson
A lot of like these strange medieval marriages between like how these deals got made.
00:59:17:15 - 00:59:18:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Which was very.
00:59:18:14 - 00:59:20:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Very, very hard for innovation.
00:59:20:17 - 00:59:22:03
Hampus Jakobsson
To actually happen. And then the other.
00:59:22:03 - 00:59:24:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Thing is like it was a very slow industry because it took.
00:59:24:13 - 00:59:25:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Like nine.
00:59:25:12 - 00:59:27:01
Hampus Jakobsson
18 months to build the phone, like the automotive.
00:59:27:01 - 00:59:28:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Industries today. And then it.
00:59:28:13 - 00:59:30:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Was a very IP centric industry with a lot of.
00:59:30:11 - 00:59:31:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Patents, which.
00:59:31:12 - 00:59:37:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Means that it's it's so you have a secret industry, like a very like secretive industry. People don't really talk to each other. So no collaboration.
00:59:37:16 - 00:59:39:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Essentially. And then you have like.
00:59:39:06 - 00:59:44:07
Hampus Jakobsson
A very slow industry, which makes it really scary to tell anybody anything, of course. But it also means that, you know.
00:59:44:09 - 00:59:44:19
Hampus Jakobsson
You kind of.
00:59:44:19 - 00:59:46:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Have to you can take a lot of cost and consider.
00:59:46:19 - 00:59:47:07
Hampus Jakobsson
And then you have.
00:59:47:07 - 00:59:50:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Like a very kind of feudal lord pressure from above of how you build.
00:59:50:03 - 00:59:50:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Stuff.
00:59:50:17 - 00:59:53:08
Hampus Jakobsson
So innovation essentially just a waste of money.
00:59:53:10 - 00:59:59:06
Hampus Jakobsson
So all of the companies that innovated were people who had like extremely strong founders and.
00:59:59:06 - 01:00:01:04
Hampus Jakobsson
That still run the company for some way.
01:00:01:04 - 01:00:02:06
Hampus Jakobsson
So they know quite a lot.
01:00:02:06 - 01:00:08:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Of innovation, because I think they were very, very proud Finnish of how they did stuff, which meant like they were like, we're not going to be beaten by other countries, for God's sake.
01:00:08:09 - 01:00:08:14
Hampus Jakobsson
And I.
01:00:08:14 - 01:00:12:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Mean, Samsung did this because that actual assumption of leadership was very visionary, one of the most visionary.
01:00:12:22 - 01:00:27:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Companies. And the same with BlackBerry. They were like extraordinary visionary because it was founders were still running the company. And if you look at it a lot in other companies, they kind of flip flop between trying to like, please Caris a bit, but also try to innovate a bit. And I think that became like.
01:00:27:00 - 01:00:28:01
Hampus Jakobsson
It was very hard for them to.
01:00:28:01 - 01:00:30:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Do stuff. And I think that I like.
01:00:30:02 - 01:00:34:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Apple was very, very like Apple came in and just said food to everybody and said, like.
01:00:34:05 - 01:00:34:13
Hampus Jakobsson
We don't.
01:00:34:13 - 01:00:37:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Even care about two carrot. Which characters. Right? And I think it was it was.
01:00:37:22 - 01:00:40:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Extremely lucky that it worked.
01:00:40:10 - 01:00:42:04
Hampus Jakobsson
because, like, it was a very, you know, a bit.
01:00:42:05 - 01:00:43:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Of markets,
01:00:43:18 - 01:00:50:06
Hampus Jakobsson
And it was like truly, I, you know, in many aspect it was very irritating, I think. I think if you look at your phone from 2000.
01:00:50:08 - 01:00:51:18
Hampus Jakobsson
567.
01:00:51:20 - 01:00:57:11
Hampus Jakobsson
The cameras got slightly better. But but the other thing is that they just got more and more buttons because the buttons could just do more and more.
01:00:57:17 - 01:00:58:23
Hampus Jakobsson
And it became the CEOs.
01:00:58:23 - 01:01:00:05
Hampus Jakobsson
And the CTOs of these companies.
01:01:00:08 - 01:01:00:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Had.
01:01:00:13 - 01:01:02:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Decided that screens are brittle.
01:01:02:10 - 01:01:02:21
Hampus Jakobsson
And they will.
01:01:02:21 - 01:01:04:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Never work because they will just break.
01:01:04:15 - 01:01:07:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Right. Which means that the only way to interact with all the.
01:01:07:11 - 01:01:09:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Features that came into your phone was just adding a.
01:01:09:08 - 01:01:10:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Button, which is a very.
01:01:10:20 - 01:01:12:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Unhuman centric way of looking at. So they were like.
01:01:13:01 - 01:01:14:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Tech and economical build.
01:01:14:12 - 01:01:19:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Entities. These companies, they were run by like economists and engineers to try to like, build a better phone.
01:01:19:12 - 01:01:24:19
Hampus Jakobsson
And none of them thinking about like behavior or customer and I think actually evaporated like that's workstream.
01:01:24:22 - 01:01:31:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Centric to CIOs like, chief formation officers and corporates. They were really thinking about like, what's security, what's the use case, how to read or email.
01:01:31:16 - 01:01:35:00
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that in the West or like we and in Europe, we really.
01:01:35:00 - 01:01:38:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Underappreciated how externally dominant BlackBerry was actually think like.
01:01:38:01 - 01:01:39:17
Hampus Jakobsson
This. But then Apple came along.
01:01:39:17 - 01:01:44:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Of course, and I found super customer centric and really thinking that cut the bullshit. And back to the basics.
01:01:44:00 - 01:01:46:00
Hampus Jakobsson
What can we build? And then when the biggest.
01:01:46:00 - 01:01:47:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Demise this I would say that.
01:01:47:05 - 01:01:47:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Came.
01:01:47:15 - 01:01:48:15
Hampus Jakobsson
After like 2000 and.
01:01:48:15 - 01:01:52:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Eight, 2010 was it was actually like most.
01:01:53:01 - 01:01:54:00
Hampus Jakobsson
manufacturers were.
01:01:54:00 - 01:01:57:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Trying to out Apple. Apple then instead.
01:01:57:06 - 01:02:01:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Of like thinking about, okay, okay. Apple just to the this is really smart. Okay, I get it.
01:02:01:22 - 01:02:02:23
Hampus Jakobsson
How do we think.
01:02:02:23 - 01:02:04:21
Hampus Jakobsson
About what is the moral way of doing.
01:02:04:21 - 01:02:08:18
Hampus Jakobsson
This. Like what would we if we are true to ourselves, what would we do.
01:02:08:20 - 01:02:10:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Or BlackBerry like what do we do?
01:02:10:05 - 01:02:14:20
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think there was this entire conversation, like internally in BlackBerry, which when we got.
01:02:14:20 - 01:02:20:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Acquired, actually my class read this decision. And one of the founders, who is an absolute genius, absolutely amazing person.
01:02:20:08 - 01:02:20:19
Hampus Jakobsson
He said.
01:02:20:19 - 01:02:22:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Like when when they offered us to acquire us, like.
01:02:22:19 - 01:02:24:06
Hampus Jakobsson
He said, what.
01:02:24:08 - 01:02:26:18
Hampus Jakobsson
What Steve Jobs has offered the world is to waste you an hour.
01:02:26:18 - 01:02:28:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Every day in a great way.
01:02:28:13 - 01:02:32:01
Hampus Jakobsson
I'm offering to save you an hour every day so you can spend it however you want.
01:02:32:03 - 01:02:33:19
Hampus Jakobsson
And it was truly true. Like if you looked.
01:02:33:20 - 01:02:35:06
Hampus Jakobsson
At the BlackBerry phone in two.
01:02:35:06 - 01:02:37:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Thousand and nine like you used it and you were like, oh.
01:02:37:22 - 01:02:38:23
Hampus Jakobsson
My God, this is so efficient.
01:02:38:23 - 01:02:41:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Like it's actually really good. And if you look at the.
01:02:41:15 - 01:02:42:16
Hampus Jakobsson
iPhone in like oh.
01:02:42:16 - 01:02:45:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Seven or 8 or 9, it was like a bit of a toy.
01:02:45:20 - 01:02:48:14
Hampus Jakobsson
It was very brittle. But what people underestimated is that.
01:02:48:16 - 01:02:50:16
Hampus Jakobsson
If you make many of one thing.
01:02:50:18 - 01:02:53:13
Hampus Jakobsson
The unit economics goes on so drastic and so much innovation.
01:02:53:15 - 01:02:57:00
Hampus Jakobsson
So think that when you came with that mindset and which was interesting.
01:02:57:00 - 01:02:58:20
Hampus Jakobsson
It's like and then you come into like that.
01:02:58:22 - 01:03:00:18
Hampus Jakobsson
More the modern mindset again.
01:03:00:18 - 01:03:04:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Out of their long sales, like in the secrecy, an Apple is highly secret company.
01:03:04:19 - 01:03:06:10
Hampus Jakobsson
But they're in a place where.
01:03:06:10 - 01:03:07:07
Hampus Jakobsson
People are like.
01:03:07:13 - 01:03:08:05
Hampus Jakobsson
You know.
01:03:08:07 - 01:03:11:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Super promiscuous with, with information.
01:03:11:24 - 01:03:12:09
Hampus Jakobsson
So like, I.
01:03:12:09 - 01:03:21:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Mean, Apple and Google, they mean so many people talk between them. So Google kind of knew what apples doing and back and forth. So they were like in this strange kind of symbiosis competition situation.
01:03:21:06 - 01:03:22:01
Hampus Jakobsson
So kind of android.
01:03:22:01 - 01:03:24:10
Hampus Jakobsson
It was a kind of designed to kind of like try to.
01:03:24:12 - 01:03:24:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Make.
01:03:24:20 - 01:03:27:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Sure that Google weren't like, Apple didn't win the mobile.
01:03:27:18 - 01:03:28:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Markets and.
01:03:28:20 - 01:03:31:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Took like the browser away from from Google.
01:03:31:00 - 01:03:32:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Right. And it's like Google wanted to.
01:03:32:21 - 01:03:33:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Get the browser.
01:03:33:08 - 01:03:35:24
Hampus Jakobsson
In the window there. And I think that that and then you had Microsoft.
01:03:35:24 - 01:03:36:22
Hampus Jakobsson
And Microsoft like.
01:03:36:22 - 01:03:38:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Was back then like.
01:03:38:09 - 01:03:44:18
Hampus Jakobsson
That. Then late coming to the industry. They were like that infrastructure on premise player who thought that you sell on premise, that's what you do.
01:03:44:21 - 01:03:46:21
Hampus Jakobsson
And then all of these kind of quote unquote cloud.
01:03:46:21 - 01:03:47:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Players came.
01:03:47:09 - 01:03:49:17
Hampus Jakobsson
In. And I mean, Apple's leadership work were.
01:03:49:20 - 01:03:55:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Not modernized, like very kind of parochial in the way they thought about the world. And they were the winners.
01:03:55:22 - 01:04:00:23
Hampus Jakobsson
And the reason that backed by, I would say, demise, but that they thought they were winners. So like, it's the classical.
01:04:00:23 - 01:04:06:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Thing is like the one of the reasons I do love startups is because that when you're ever working in somebody who thought they already one.
01:04:06:16 - 01:04:19:07
Hampus Jakobsson
That's when you actually can beat them up quite a lot. so I think that, you know, latency, the complacency, they're saying so and, and also like just like the, the superiority and the belief that you don't need to innovate. And I think that I think it's an always.
01:04:19:07 - 01:04:21:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Reminder that I think there are three ways of doing this, like products.
01:04:21:22 - 01:04:26:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Product excellence, customer intimacy and operational excellence. And I think like if you.
01:04:26:03 - 01:04:28:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Have like the best product, you will like, you will win a.
01:04:28:04 - 01:04:31:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Lot. But the thing is that you can always have new people come in with.
01:04:31:03 - 01:04:34:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Operational excellence and just making it cheaper and easier. Right, to do it.
01:04:34:19 - 01:04:36:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Or you can come in and being tighter the customer.
01:04:36:20 - 01:04:37:12
Hampus Jakobsson
And solving their.
01:04:37:12 - 01:04:46:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Problems like better, right? And as anybody who's winning, you need to be paranoid about the all you need to be like how are we closer to the customer? But the problem is, like every time you're closer.
01:04:46:08 - 01:04:48:23
Hampus Jakobsson
To the customer, you're wasting your time away from operational.
01:04:48:23 - 01:04:50:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Excellence. Like McDonald's being.
01:04:50:21 - 01:04:56:03
Hampus Jakobsson
One of the most operational, excellent companies in the world. Like you go into McDonald's almost anywhere in the world. 90% of the menu is the.
01:04:56:03 - 01:04:58:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Same, 10% is unique. And like you come in and.
01:04:58:20 - 01:05:01:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, you know, they serve it the same way, that same fire strategy, you just have to say.
01:05:01:19 - 01:05:05:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Wait, 10% is like, if you go to, you know, type Taipei. They have like.
01:05:05:16 - 01:05:08:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Very, very unique burgers that you would like as an Australian, like.
01:05:08:18 - 01:05:23:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Whoa. And like the same thing if you go to Sweden, you were like, what's, what's this burger like what's happening here? And I think it's really good because that's the way that that McDonald's is able to kind of do explore and exploit. They're able to exploit that, the fact they're super efficient, but they need to like figure out maybe this is the new burger we need right.
01:05:23:04 - 01:05:24:15
Hampus Jakobsson
And this is the thing that makes you feel the.
01:05:24:15 - 01:05:27:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Intimacy over that small local burger shop that has like a very.
01:05:27:17 - 01:05:38:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Unique flavor. And then product excellence. When you get to that size, you can start saying, we want all the meats, we want the best of meats, like we want these new pea protein burger. And it needs to beat like.
01:05:38:20 - 01:05:39:06
Hampus Jakobsson
It needs to be the.
01:05:39:06 - 01:05:49:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Best one, and we can actually buy large volumes. The problem, when you get to that scale is that you usually don't want the innovation, because innovation is a distraction. It's a cost. And I think about that a lot.
01:05:49:07 - 01:05:50:24
Hampus Jakobsson
It's like there for kind.
01:05:50:24 - 01:05:52:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Of stages of leadership.
01:05:52:16 - 01:05:53:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Like you have.
01:05:53:03 - 01:06:04:13
Hampus Jakobsson
The the innovators, the entrepreneurs, the leaders and and the managers and the team, the innovators. So the people who come up with a new thing and they're like, oh my God. And then they put him in the best car.
01:06:04:18 - 01:06:06:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Or they write in a song like, this is amazing.
01:06:06:17 - 01:06:19:19
Hampus Jakobsson
And they're happy with and entrepreneurs are the ones that they want to, like, burn the old so they can introduce the new and they don't care what it is like. If you if an innovator gives like, wow, I was going to make bottles. That's what I'm gonna make. These can sell right? Like burn the old and make the new.
01:06:19:21 - 01:06:25:21
Hampus Jakobsson
So the innovators and entrepreneurs really interact with that really well. They love each other and then have leaders. And leaders are the ones that like, they gather people around the.
01:06:25:21 - 01:06:28:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Campfire and they want a purpose that was all to work on something together.
01:06:28:24 - 01:06:30:02
Hampus Jakobsson
And they work really great with.
01:06:30:02 - 01:06:30:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Entrepreneurs because.
01:06:30:19 - 01:06:33:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Entrepreneurs, because, like, we have this cause we're going to save the planet or.
01:06:33:24 - 01:06:35:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Fix bottles, whatever I.
01:06:35:03 - 01:06:39:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Need just like, oh, that's great, let's rally around this. Right? And entrepreneurs love leaders because somebody.
01:06:39:14 - 01:06:41:15
Hampus Jakobsson
In the team says, oh, I'm going in front of even like.
01:06:41:15 - 01:06:43:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Oh, you're the cause.
01:06:43:01 - 01:06:43:23
Hampus Jakobsson
It's so important, right?
01:06:43:23 - 01:06:55:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, you can't leave now and then, you know, it's like, oh, like, yeah, this needs to go in front of me for a bit. He's going to come back, you know, leave him alone now. And then. The next step is managers and managers are like these. So like.
01:06:55:13 - 01:06:56:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Harvesters.
01:06:56:10 - 01:06:57:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Like improve.
01:06:57:00 - 01:06:58:09
Hampus Jakobsson
The metric like 3% every.
01:06:58:09 - 01:07:06:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Month. And for them people are full time equivalents like guests. So managers love, leaders because they're like, can you get it more efficient and talk to the.
01:07:06:21 - 01:07:13:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Populace, whatever we call them now, colleagues, coworkers, whatever is the word of the day that we use for these minions that we have right?
01:07:13:22 - 01:07:14:09
Hampus Jakobsson
And leaders.
01:07:14:09 - 01:07:16:22
Hampus Jakobsson
For some strange reason, admire managers because.
01:07:16:22 - 01:07:17:24
Hampus Jakobsson
They think that eventually.
01:07:17:24 - 01:07:20:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Career wise, they will get to be managers and sit in a corner office at a higher.
01:07:20:20 - 01:07:24:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Salary. So somehow this chain, everybody talk to each other and think, what happens if a company.
01:07:24:20 - 01:07:26:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Started by innovator, innovators and.
01:07:26:05 - 01:07:27:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Entrepreneurs to build a.
01:07:27:07 - 01:07:33:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Company and they try to hire people that are leaders, or maybe they have some leader gene in them, and that they were Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts or something, they.
01:07:33:08 - 01:07:45:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Kind of figure it out, and then eventually they start hiring managers. And the thing that's the curse of the company is when the board looks at the company and they feel that the people running the company are like plank playing shop too much and being too innovative.
01:07:45:12 - 01:07:47:12
Hampus Jakobsson
And don't send out the quarterly report at the right time.
01:07:47:14 - 01:07:49:16
Hampus Jakobsson
So, they ask the CFO, who's like.
01:07:49:16 - 01:07:50:14
Hampus Jakobsson
The only grown up in the.
01:07:50:14 - 01:08:01:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Room. They ask him or her, can you maybe be the CEO along with the CEO, co-CEO, maybe, and like whatever, and then take over the CEO role and he or she takes over that role and the lead.
01:08:01:10 - 01:08:07:23
Hampus Jakobsson
They're like, that's original founders, like super happy because they can just work with innovation and like, work with the new stuff and set up new markets and.
01:08:08:00 - 01:08:17:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Drive stuff on fire. But then the board eventually says this cost, this is just so much cost, this department. Can't you move the innovators into taking patents? Just get them to do a lot of patents.
01:08:17:12 - 01:08:20:07
Hampus Jakobsson
So we can sue people and like, you know, have a lot of like defense.
01:08:20:09 - 01:08:20:18
Hampus Jakobsson
And all the.
01:08:20:18 - 01:08:26:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Entrepreneurs get rid of them because they're just creating so much mess for us. It's hard to figure out why they do everything they send. It's really hard to read.
01:08:26:06 - 01:08:27:21
Hampus Jakobsson
So then the the new.
01:08:27:23 - 01:08:30:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Manager is now firing the original entrepreneurs.
01:08:30:14 - 01:08:35:10
Hampus Jakobsson
And they leave and they're like, I'll start something new. And that's why a lot of companies get this like flattened out.
01:08:35:11 - 01:08:36:07
Hampus Jakobsson
S-curve where they start.
01:08:36:07 - 01:08:38:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Really, and then they go like this because the entrepreneurs are
01:08:38:13 - 01:08:39:23
Hampus Jakobsson
can't.
01:08:40:00 - 01:09:00:02
Christian Soschner
I love your story stating it's great. It's great listening to you. I mean, this is this is the reason what you mentioned by fact, it was so interesting because it seems that Apple, despite its, size they've reached, they are still innovative, in your opinion. But what's the secret sauce of a company like Apple?
01:09:00:02 - 01:09:16:16
Christian Soschner
Why does Apple not style it like all other companies like that, that have helped push out to innovators and entrepreneurs and just get stuck in the structure sense, then make a place for something new? Why has ever since said 2001 two this, endless homerun?
01:09:16:18 - 01:09:18:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Yeah, I think it's the fascinating thing.
01:09:18:06 - 01:09:18:21
Hampus Jakobsson
It's like the
01:09:18:21 - 01:09:21:12
Hampus Jakobsson
thing that I find most fascinating. It's like if you take.
01:09:21:14 - 01:09:23:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, take two companies.
01:09:23:17 - 01:09:25:13
Hampus Jakobsson
That are just so close to each other, so different. Take Google.
01:09:25:13 - 01:09:26:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Apple. I mean.
01:09:27:01 - 01:09:35:24
Hampus Jakobsson
They're the most opposing cultures you can almost ever be like, it's it's so strange. Like, I mean, Google is it's like it's a dorm room of PhDs kind of level. You come in and like, you know.
01:09:36:05 - 01:09:37:14
Hampus Jakobsson
People pop up.
01:09:37:14 - 01:09:40:09
Hampus Jakobsson
You're like, oh my God. You just be like, holy shit.
01:09:40:09 - 01:09:46:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Like everybody's like, does anybody do anything here? Like, you really have a target and navigating it. And there's of.
01:09:46:13 - 01:09:49:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Course one department which is just a cash cow. They just like the ads business.
01:09:50:01 - 01:09:51:20
Hampus Jakobsson
But they allow like, do you want to do self-driving.
01:09:51:20 - 01:09:54:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Cars and nuclear reactors? Yeah. You were one of the core members of.
01:09:54:14 - 01:09:57:00
Hampus Jakobsson
The ad team. Go ahead. Here's 20 million.
01:09:57:00 - 01:09:59:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Euros like dollars. Like go ahead and try it for you. Right.
01:09:59:21 - 01:10:02:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Which is funny because it's crazy to think about that.
01:10:02:06 - 01:10:04:20
Hampus Jakobsson
That culture has succeeded create a lot of innovation.
01:10:04:22 - 01:10:05:11
Hampus Jakobsson
But Google is.
01:10:05:11 - 01:10:07:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Still like an ad business, right? That's cool. Right?
01:10:07:12 - 01:10:15:00
Hampus Jakobsson
They created so much value. Like if you actually think about it, Google has created so much like human value, like extraordinary human value.
01:10:15:02 - 01:10:20:19
Hampus Jakobsson
But like they still own more or less make money from ads, right. Like the cloud business and stuff. They there's something else, but.
01:10:20:20 - 01:10:21:11
Hampus Jakobsson
They at.
01:10:21:11 - 01:10:23:02
Hampus Jakobsson
The end of the day, they really do that. Right.
01:10:23:04 - 01:10:27:05
Hampus Jakobsson
And then you and then you take Apple, which is like this monolithic.
01:10:27:05 - 01:10:29:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Like way of thinking, like DIY, like we do it on our.
01:10:29:12 - 01:10:30:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Own. We like, don't.
01:10:30:20 - 01:10:31:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Collaborate.
01:10:31:09 - 01:10:32:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Like there's secrets.
01:10:32:15 - 01:10:35:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Like crazy, right? Then Apple has open up. It's become less of a secret company.
01:10:35:14 - 01:10:37:22
Hampus Jakobsson
But Apple back in oh seven, I mean.
01:10:37:23 - 01:10:43:23
Hampus Jakobsson
By God, like, you know, it was not like everybody was afraid of Apple, like in so many shapes and forms. Right? Where Google was this kind of.
01:10:43:23 - 01:10:46:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Like colorful, kind of clownish kind of.
01:10:46:23 - 01:10:50:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Thing that people have a hard time figuring out what they were going to do. Oh, they're going to do a spaceship.
01:10:50:00 - 01:10:50:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Maybe for Apple.
01:10:50:24 - 01:10:54:12
Hampus Jakobsson
It's like, you know, you knew that if it work, if Apple comes out with it, it's actually going to work.
01:10:54:14 - 01:10:57:12
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that I think what made Apple successful, I.
01:10:57:12 - 01:11:02:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Think that first of all, I think that, of course, you could just put Steve Jobs on a pedestal saying he's a genius.
01:11:02:00 - 01:11:03:10
Hampus Jakobsson
I don't know, I think what it all boils.
01:11:03:10 - 01:11:04:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Down to is like.
01:11:04:09 - 01:11:08:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Fucking ask pride. I think that like, if you take like, why black.
01:11:08:10 - 01:11:12:08
Hampus Jakobsson
There was amazing. And I think what I thought was amazing or like or Samsung were amazing.
01:11:12:10 - 01:11:24:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Or many of these companies. It was because the leadership had an inherent pride of what they did. They were like, they love their craft and they would not that shit get out the door. And I think it's really fascinating because I think that that's.
01:11:24:09 - 01:11:25:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Also like a startup.
01:11:25:16 - 01:11:28:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Mentality like that. Entrepreneurs that started their company that really.
01:11:28:22 - 01:11:30:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Like doing this, really like solving a.
01:11:30:10 - 01:11:30:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Problem.
01:11:30:21 - 01:11:34:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Some of them are crass people that want to like, do it the best way, but some of them want to solve a problem. The best way.
01:11:34:18 - 01:11:35:11
Hampus Jakobsson
And they don't.
01:11:35:11 - 01:11:37:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Care about the tech, but they really care about the customer.
01:11:37:16 - 01:11:42:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Or something. They have this pride of, like, I need to kind of undo that.
01:11:42:07 - 01:11:44:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Wrong, right? I need to like put a dent in universe. What do you want to call it?
01:11:44:24 - 01:11:48:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, I'm not going to leave a trace. That really works. And if you have that attitude, you're never going to.
01:11:48:23 - 01:11:51:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Like just sell the like, mediocre burger. I hope nobody.
01:11:51:17 - 01:11:55:04
Hampus Jakobsson
I like, I just hope they don't realize. Right. Like if you were a vegetarian.
01:11:55:04 - 01:11:55:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Back.
01:11:55:11 - 01:12:03:09
Hampus Jakobsson
In how late 20. Let's see what year ago like let's say 2010, 2015. You go into the cars and like buy.
01:12:03:10 - 01:12:04:05
Hampus Jakobsson
A vegetarian burger.
01:12:04:09 - 01:12:16:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Because it was like the most like extraordinary shit. It was like it was like deep fried peas, but like, literally like peas, like whole peas. Not like mushy peas and other vegetables. Put in a patty and just put in the.
01:12:16:12 - 01:12:17:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Deep fryer and you pick it.
01:12:17:10 - 01:12:21:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Up and it's just like it was like the strangest thing. And it was like a checkbox. It was like.
01:12:21:20 - 01:12:23:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Some people want vegetarian food.
01:12:23:07 - 01:12:30:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Let's just get them something right. And it's so strange because like, if you are a company with pride, like if you were a BlackBerry or you.
01:12:30:07 - 01:12:31:23
Hampus Jakobsson
You, you were like, or.
01:12:31:23 - 01:12:37:06
Hampus Jakobsson
An apple, like you would be like, you know, let's have management taste the burger, the management, taste.
01:12:37:06 - 01:12:38:08
Hampus Jakobsson
The burger and say, I.
01:12:38:08 - 01:12:54:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Wouldn't eat them, then Apple wouldn't serve them. They were like, I'm not going to serve this burger. But if you take like a lot of like companies, they were like, yeah, management. They didn't really try the burger, but they don't. They're not a deterrent. So they don't really care. But it's like, what? And I think that pride was their strength and.
01:12:54:24 - 01:12:57:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Is their strength. I think they see a lot of pride.
01:12:57:03 - 01:13:04:13
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that I think the headache is when that pride like becomes like, you know, you're not open like you.
01:13:04:13 - 01:13:05:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Essentially think that you.
01:13:05:11 - 01:13:06:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Know it all. And I.
01:13:06:13 - 01:13:07:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Think what's really fascinating is.
01:13:07:14 - 01:13:10:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Like Apple was extremely paranoid and.
01:13:10:06 - 01:13:11:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Is extremely tech. Right.
01:13:11:17 - 01:13:19:05
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that paranoia, and pride is such a good combo. My God, you never think you're winning. I think you.
01:13:19:05 - 01:13:20:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Always think you're you're the.
01:13:20:10 - 01:13:23:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Underdog. And even, like, I think it's I don't know about Apple now.
01:13:23:22 - 01:13:25:09
Hampus Jakobsson
It's long time since act with Apple now.
01:13:25:14 - 01:13:42:12
Hampus Jakobsson
But I find it fascinating to think I think that a lot of people I don't know after it's interesting question. I wonder if Apple still thinks they're the underdog. and I think usually the transition you can do when you start becoming the underdog is actually taking on a much bigger costs that you take on, like the, you know.
01:13:42:14 - 01:13:45:23
Hampus Jakobsson
As the US does, like the world police stuff and like, and I mean, it's like you.
01:13:45:23 - 01:13:46:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Just be like, oh.
01:13:46:24 - 01:13:52:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Hey, where the grown ups guys do this? And I think Apple has done this last three or 4 or 5 years, right? Where like, you know, their environments, sustainability, where like.
01:13:52:22 - 01:13:54:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Okay, we'll have to do the pledge. We have.
01:13:54:14 - 01:13:55:09
Hampus Jakobsson
To go further than anyone.
01:13:55:09 - 01:13:58:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Else. And I think that's I think that allows you.
01:13:58:09 - 01:13:59:15
Hampus Jakobsson
To just go further.
01:13:59:19 - 01:14:03:14
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think the fascinating thing is, like many of these causes pick any costs, like pick.
01:14:03:14 - 01:14:06:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Diversity, which Apple has been really pick on for many years.
01:14:06:07 - 01:14:06:22
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think, I mean.
01:14:07:03 - 01:14:13:05
Hampus Jakobsson
I think actually like even before most people knew that Tim Cook was gay, I think that they were already very, very open about diversity.
01:14:13:06 - 01:14:14:03
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that, of course.
01:14:14:03 - 01:14:16:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Allows you to hire top talent because you have an open mindset.
01:14:17:02 - 01:14:18:14
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that what's interesting about.
01:14:18:14 - 01:14:22:15
Hampus Jakobsson
It is that Apple also has it like, not accepted culture of like producing bullshit.
01:14:22:18 - 01:14:24:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Which means that everybody can come.
01:14:24:14 - 01:14:27:07
Hampus Jakobsson
In. But we're going to talk about this every shape or form.
01:14:27:09 - 01:14:29:01
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that that's when you get like some of the.
01:14:29:01 - 01:14:30:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Interesting things about diversity.
01:14:30:05 - 01:14:39:00
Hampus Jakobsson
It's like diversity is so good because if you know the task, you know exactly what you're going to do. It's you're going to build a plank. When you're going to put in.
01:14:39:00 - 01:14:39:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Nails at a.
01:14:39:12 - 01:14:41:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Certain height, you can just build.
01:14:41:01 - 01:14:42:14
Hampus Jakobsson
A robot and just allow it to do it.
01:14:42:17 - 01:14:51:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Like it's like you didn't. You need zero diversity. Like you just do it. Do it the best way and get that out of the way as quick as possible. If you need different kind of thinking, you need.
01:14:51:24 - 01:14:53:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Essentially arrows pointing in different.
01:14:53:08 - 01:14:54:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Directions. So the more.
01:14:54:24 - 01:14:56:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Innovative industry you are.
01:14:56:04 - 01:14:57:05
Hampus Jakobsson
The more like.
01:14:57:05 - 01:14:59:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Differences you need to actually like approach this.
01:14:59:07 - 01:15:05:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Problem. But then also, of course, you actually need a way of channeling these things into something. You can't have a.
01:15:05:17 - 01:15:10:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Situation where you just like, talk all the time. You have to like, okay, we have to ship a product in nine months, right?
01:15:10:07 - 01:15:26:00
Hampus Jakobsson
So I think that I think Apple mastered that back in the day as well. It's like we allow any kind of like any you know, Steve Jobs old adage was, do you want to be in the Navy or would you be a pirate like Apple recruited diversity people like they were. They recruited like the whole.
01:15:26:00 - 01:15:28:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Homebrew Association and people like the very, very different people.
01:15:28:22 - 01:15:33:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Right. But they distill it down. It's like we need to ship like an apple to work.
01:15:33:16 - 01:15:36:06
Hampus Jakobsson
It doesn't matter what you're thinking. We're going to fix this problem.
01:15:36:08 - 01:15:38:15
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that that that is such a great power.
01:15:38:15 - 01:15:39:02
Hampus Jakobsson
That you're.
01:15:39:02 - 01:15:46:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Kind of paranoid. Can you allow anything? But you also said that we will ship, we will ship this thing.
01:15:46:07 - 01:16:03:00
Christian Soschner
you transitioned stand from being an entrepreneur to that's, becoming a venture capitalist. from the star Istituto especially about talent in mobile industry. what are you looking for when you talk to founders these days? What would you like to see? You see.
01:16:03:02 - 01:16:11:15
Hampus Jakobsson
I think it's a great question. I think that I just talk to, like a friend that I'm in and know, like somebody I know, thanks to conversing with them. Bring the board together. We just talked about this morning actually exactly that.
01:16:11:17 - 01:16:13:17
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think it's funny because if you take haidi.
01:16:13:17 - 01:16:15:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Within myself, like the three co-founders.
01:16:15:06 - 01:16:17:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Of Pablo, that we actually like very different things.
01:16:17:14 - 01:16:28:14
Hampus Jakobsson
So like there's a clear overlap between us, that 60% is probably the same where we look for exactly the same things, but there's 40%, which like it's so different. And we actually have a funny thing where like some of us meets a company and we're like.
01:16:28:16 - 01:16:30:16
Hampus Jakobsson
I like it. I don't love it.
01:16:30:18 - 01:16:33:16
Hampus Jakobsson
I think that I do it like this. I think she would truly love it.
01:16:33:18 - 01:16:34:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Or.
01:16:34:06 - 01:16:35:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Like you well or something.
01:16:35:18 - 01:16:40:11
Hampus Jakobsson
So it's funny that like, what is it that we like? And I think it's different. I think that for me.
01:16:40:13 - 01:16:44:03
Hampus Jakobsson
I think that all three of us, I think it's which I think is different from like a lot.
01:16:44:03 - 01:16:45:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Of.
01:16:45:02 - 01:16:46:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Theses necessarily.
01:16:46:13 - 01:16:48:08
Hampus Jakobsson
I think that we really like trust.
01:16:48:09 - 01:16:49:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Like for us it's.
01:16:49:04 - 01:16:52:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Like we want the like the, being able to build a.
01:16:52:15 - 01:16:59:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Relationship where we can kind of comment on what we think is our blind spots or give advice and really being.
01:16:59:11 - 01:17:01:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Able to be like, what do you think about.
01:17:01:04 - 01:17:02:22
Hampus Jakobsson
This and what's going on and what's going on in your.
01:17:02:22 - 01:17:06:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Life that makes this happen? And y actually very different.
01:17:06:02 - 01:17:10:11
Hampus Jakobsson
It's like, are you doing this to kind of you want to make money, or do you want to do this because you want to solve the problem?
01:17:10:11 - 01:17:14:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Or who do you want to be in your team and having that conversation, like being able to build a.
01:17:14:20 - 01:17:15:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Relationship with somebody.
01:17:15:17 - 01:17:17:02
Hampus Jakobsson
As a person.
01:17:17:04 - 01:17:21:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Like not as an entrepreneur, not as a VC, not as a board member, not as a CEO, but actually.
01:17:21:20 - 01:17:36:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, I want, I want actually you to trust me. And I want to be able to like, I want this finished. Like I want a situation where like, I want to have it like we're going to work together for ten years, maybe, like, I actually really want to know you. Like, I know it's not that fun. And so that is a very, very.
01:17:36:10 - 01:17:37:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Core factor of.
01:17:37:08 - 01:17:39:10
Hampus Jakobsson
How we actually think about people. But then I think.
01:17:39:10 - 01:17:40:22
Hampus Jakobsson
The other thing is that.
01:17:40:24 - 01:17:41:15
Hampus Jakobsson
You need.
01:17:41:15 - 01:17:45:20
Hampus Jakobsson
To kind of be in venture. The thing that most people don't really think about is the fact.
01:17:45:20 - 01:17:48:02
Hampus Jakobsson
That when you run your pension.
01:17:48:02 - 01:18:04:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Fund and you're trying to save money, you're placing most of your money into a pension fund and like, you have like essentially three buckets, you put one bucket, you put in in stock markets because they're always like, you know, perform really nicely. And then you put one bucket in different kind of interest rates and bond instruments that are like, you know, stabilizing.
01:18:04:17 - 01:18:10:01
Hampus Jakobsson
If one goes up, one goes down. These two together, you kind of like, you know, take your risk reward ratio kind of level.
01:18:10:03 - 01:18:11:15
Hampus Jakobsson
but then I'd like to be able to give.
01:18:11:15 - 01:18:13:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Your beneficiaries, like the people who have the pension.
01:18:13:17 - 01:18:14:17
Hampus Jakobsson
To give them money in like.
01:18:14:17 - 01:18:15:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Five, ten, 20.
01:18:15:16 - 01:18:19:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Years. You have to something which is out there like it has to take.
01:18:19:18 - 01:18:20:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Risks to get.
01:18:20:07 - 01:18:20:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Reward.
01:18:20:24 - 01:18:29:20
Hampus Jakobsson
And typically what you do is like you take a small slice and like some people take 1%, something like that, 30% like you take a certain number of all your money. And if you're one of these big, organizations like endowment or pension.
01:18:29:20 - 01:18:30:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Funds, and you place.
01:18:30:18 - 01:18:32:17
Hampus Jakobsson
It in different kind of alternatives like that are.
01:18:32:19 - 01:18:41:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Outside these two, and one of them is center. So if you think about it, our job is to do something which is on their own, like the set setup.
01:18:41:08 - 01:18:43:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Is that it's we have to be way better than the public.
01:18:43:18 - 01:18:49:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Market. Like if it's the same as public market, we're really, really bad because the public.
01:18:49:04 - 01:18:51:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Market is liquid. You can just buy and sell all the time.
01:18:51:09 - 01:18:52:07
Hampus Jakobsson
So the way to think.
01:18:52:07 - 01:18:58:10
Hampus Jakobsson
About it is that the public market is like like, you know, one night stands, you're just like, okay, let me eat somebody tonight. or whatever speed.
01:18:58:10 - 01:19:03:10
Hampus Jakobsson
I think the thing is, we're a long term marriage. So like, you know, if we invest in somebody we can't like, it's easier to get a divorce.
01:19:03:10 - 01:19:05:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Than getting out of a founder investor relationship.
01:19:06:01 - 01:19:07:04
Hampus Jakobsson
So, like, we have to
01:19:07:04 - 01:19:07:20
Hampus Jakobsson
you have to find.
01:19:07:20 - 01:19:10:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Stuff that are, like, truly worth the time.
01:19:10:00 - 01:19:11:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Otherwise you're married to the wrong person.
01:19:11:18 - 01:19:12:04
Hampus Jakobsson
And that's me.
01:19:12:04 - 01:19:19:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Way more worth than like, all of the 21 nightstands you could have had during the time period, or how many when it's that one person.
01:19:19:07 - 01:19:20:18
Hampus Jakobsson
so I think that's I think the complexity.
01:19:20:18 - 01:19:21:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Here is that.
01:19:21:23 - 01:19:23:09
Hampus Jakobsson
How do you do that? And the way to.
01:19:23:09 - 01:19:35:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Think, think about it is that the world is like it's like as any of these it's a power locker. So like, I don't know who's the number one artist in the world right now, but let's say it's Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift sells twice as many albums as Justin Bieber. Probably not. I'm not going to do it all.
01:19:35:18 - 01:19:37:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Anymore and then just goes down and down. I'm like.
01:19:37:17 - 01:19:39:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Can I is listen like the third.
01:19:39:04 - 01:19:42:17
Hampus Jakobsson
And like, these are just like half, half, half ass and eventually get.
01:19:42:17 - 01:20:00:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Down to long tail, which is like no, extraordinary. Sorry. It's honest people like they're extraordinary people. But but but again parallel calm. The best ones are so much better. Or at least making so much more money can get attention. And it's due to like attention economy. And economists get a lot of different reasons. They're not necessarily media better, but because of many factors it becomes.
01:20:00:05 - 01:20:06:14
Hampus Jakobsson
It's like our job is to invest in these. So if we invest in a company that gives us 50.
01:20:06:14 - 01:20:09:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Percent more money back in ten years, the public markets could have beat.
01:20:09:14 - 01:20:11:22
Hampus Jakobsson
That. So the headache.
01:20:11:22 - 01:20:13:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Is that we need to invest in.
01:20:13:03 - 01:20:26:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Something that gives extort amount of money, like three times the money for the whole collective companies. And the weird thing is with this is that risk, there's a base risk in any kind of thing.
01:20:26:12 - 01:20:27:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Base risk.
01:20:27:02 - 01:20:28:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Of like macro.
01:20:28:09 - 01:20:30:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Risk or people risk.
01:20:30:02 - 01:20:34:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Or sickness and health, they're all kind of risks. So the funny thing is, investing in the.
01:20:34:00 - 01:20:35:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Middle of the curve is.
01:20:35:03 - 01:20:41:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Almost always a bad risk because you don't get the potential upside, but you get the same risk as like everybody.
01:20:41:18 - 01:20:44:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Gets like everyone has like a 10% risk all the time.
01:20:44:03 - 01:20:45:06
Hampus Jakobsson
So we need to invest.
01:20:45:06 - 01:20:45:20
Hampus Jakobsson
In these that are.
01:20:45:20 - 01:20:58:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Absurd. And the weird thing is, the only way to get absurd is you need to invest in people that are absurd. So no sane person would ever try to build this. And if you take this, this curve and you plot it underneath.
01:20:58:09 - 01:21:01:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Your plot there how people are. So you get like a normal distribution.
01:21:01:02 - 01:21:14:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Curve, like this kind of curve. So most people are this, most people who say, hey, like Christian, should you and I go to Bolivia and set up like a vegan sausage franchise where.
01:21:14:03 - 01:21:16:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Everybody has to come in, has to be a masquerade costumes.
01:21:16:16 - 01:21:18:12
Hampus Jakobsson
You would be like, I in Indianapolis.
01:21:18:13 - 01:21:20:09
Hampus Jakobsson
I'm not sure if I told you, but this is a conservative town.
01:21:20:15 - 01:21:24:04
Hampus Jakobsson
So like, you know, you know, like it would be hard to get you out, but some people would be like.
01:21:24:06 - 01:21:29:10
Hampus Jakobsson
This is the best idea I've ever heard since you pitched me that. It's a sliced cucumber idea. Let's go and do this.
01:21:29:12 - 01:21:38:06
Hampus Jakobsson
So then we go and do this thing. And of course, the problem is, like, most of these ideas are wrong. So our model has to be even more extreme, which is like we have to predict that 50.
01:21:38:06 - 01:21:39:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Percent of the ideas just won't work at.
01:21:39:19 - 01:21:48:01
Hampus Jakobsson
All. And then 3,040% of the ideas will work, but will be like good businesses. They will give us like 1 to 2.
01:21:48:01 - 01:21:49:14
Hampus Jakobsson
To three times the money, maybe over.
01:21:49:14 - 01:21:56:12
Hampus Jakobsson
A year, but because half is gone, right? If, oh, half of the companies give us three times the money back, which is very good. The problem is like a.
01:21:56:12 - 01:22:02:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Half of them gave zero. That means like we just now get 1.5 times the money back, like given that we gave seven minutes already.
01:22:02:21 - 01:22:18:14
Hampus Jakobsson
So the problem is like we need these companies to give like a lot more back, right? So they need to be a lot more absurd. And the headache here is like, we don't know which one is which. So it's not that we don't really invest. We say we put half in kind of solid stuff and half.
01:22:18:14 - 01:22:27:09
Hampus Jakobsson
In crazy stuff, because the solid stuff is not gonna work for us. It will work, but it will give us like 1.1 times the money back, which is worthless.
01:22:27:11 - 01:22:28:03
Hampus Jakobsson
So the funny thing.
01:22:28:03 - 01:22:30:09
Hampus Jakobsson
For us is like, we have to invest in absurd people.
01:22:30:11 - 01:22:34:11
Hampus Jakobsson
So we really look for like one people has like, oh, I used to.
01:22:34:11 - 01:22:42:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Be the world bouldering champion. But then I got so frustrated and started like a bus company with one of my friends was backpacking in Africa and figured busses are the best idea ever.
01:22:42:21 - 01:22:48:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Most people are like, oh, what? I like allow or like when I.
01:22:48:05 - 01:22:51:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Was irritated at like garbage in the Ganges river, I started.
01:22:51:17 - 01:22:52:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Doing my.
01:22:52:07 - 01:23:02:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Stand up pedaling board and down the river and picked up garbage and eventually actually got in the Guinness Book of Records because I ended up just going further than any other person is ever going to Ganga's river. on a static culling board.
01:23:02:14 - 01:23:06:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Right. And it's like, so like that outlier behavior of, like, I'm not going to give up.
01:23:06:05 - 01:23:06:18
Hampus Jakobsson
I'm great.
01:23:06:18 - 01:23:18:22
Hampus Jakobsson
I'm like, going to be in this thing. It's so important. So like, you get that dose to like get like the the open to advice and like you know understand you the trust. But you also get the like the extreme ness. And those two.
01:23:18:22 - 01:23:21:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Things I think creates a lot of interesting tension and
01:23:21:06 - 01:23:22:12
Hampus Jakobsson
stuff.
01:23:22:14 - 01:23:44:15
Christian Soschner
That this is such a great explanation. fueling the public investment markets as Tinder and oh man, that's why that stance and the private investment market, especially the venture case, is more like a Catholic marriage. There is no divorce. So you need to work together with people foreign. And that's basically.
01:23:44:17 - 01:23:45:16
Hampus Jakobsson
I it's like.
01:23:45:18 - 01:23:48:04
Christian Soschner
To think that, I was like, it.
01:23:48:04 - 01:23:49:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Is what it is.
01:23:49:03 - 01:24:02:20
Hampus Jakobsson
You have to remember is the Mormon church, right? Because we married to a lot of people at the same time. So like we're actually investing like 35 companies here. So like, it's not true. Men are going to be, Catholic marriage. We're married to 35 companies.
01:24:02:22 - 01:24:04:14
Christian Soschner
Not from the outside, but from the US, not.
01:24:04:19 - 01:24:06:16
Hampus Jakobsson
From the other side. Of course, they have other investors too.
01:24:06:22 - 01:24:30:00
Christian Soschner
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's an interesting twist. It's not Catholic. That's not exactly. Yeah, that's true, that's true. But the question that I have in mind now is, I mean, I totally agree to what to say. when you invest in ordinary businesses, you will never compete. Probably Warren Buffett. And this is always an option. I mean, Berkshire Hathaway or Blackrock for example, or just simple S&P 500.
01:24:30:00 - 01:24:54:09
Christian Soschner
Now we have 5% interest rates. back on the savings accounts, given somebody has a 10 million, you mean it's 500,000 per. Yeah. So you need to be above this 20%. The question is, you said, as I totally agree, you need the outliers. You need, atypical people because investing typically people creates typically stress. And this is not what your needs to satisfy your piece.
01:24:54:11 - 01:25:03:06
Christian Soschner
But how do you identify these outliers? But what's your emotional signal? They'll say this could be the story. This could be the next big thing.
01:25:03:08 - 01:25:04:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Yeah, I think
01:25:04:04 - 01:25:04:09
Hampus Jakobsson
that it's.
01:25:04:09 - 01:25:08:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Funny because that that's where you and and hiding are so, so different. It's so funny because like, for me.
01:25:08:12 - 01:25:11:06
Hampus Jakobsson
It is really that the agile mind and.
01:25:11:06 - 01:25:11:15
Hampus Jakobsson
The clarity of.
01:25:11:15 - 01:25:14:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Thought, like I love coming to meetings and actually.
01:25:14:08 - 01:25:27:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Just saying, just like, hey, there's so many meetings. Like if you look at like my day, it's like my day is just chopped up with like between four and, you know, 20 meetings, not 20, but maybe 15 meetings where, like, I meet somebody for 30 minutes or and try to figure out what they do.
01:25:27:10 - 01:25:27:20
Hampus Jakobsson
And you're the.
01:25:27:20 - 01:25:38:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Way my meetings and look like is that we started by talking five minutes about absolutely random stuff. It's like, if you were my meeting, I would start by looking at the books in your bookshelf, and I would ask them to think about the books, and you'd be like.
01:25:38:12 - 01:25:39:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Oh, can I just share my.
01:25:39:15 - 01:25:45:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Slides with this guy? You would be constantly thinking, I need to stop talking about books. I should have them in this room. I should have a virtual background.
01:25:45:14 - 01:25:46:01
Hampus Jakobsson
I love.
01:25:46:01 - 01:25:47:15
Hampus Jakobsson
When people don't have virtual backups because you get.
01:25:47:15 - 01:25:48:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Like really.
01:25:48:03 - 01:25:49:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Good conversations about them and why.
01:25:50:00 - 01:25:51:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Oh, why? They live in Bristol and, you know, like.
01:25:51:13 - 01:25:52:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Really interesting conversation.
01:25:52:09 - 01:26:01:16
Hampus Jakobsson
So is Vienna actually conservative or, you know, it's really interesting. And then I have a couple of minutes. I usually say, Chris, are okay with like me telling you what you do and then you can fill out.
01:26:01:16 - 01:26:12:11
Hampus Jakobsson
With like what I, what I didn't really understand. And usually people are a bit like, okay, I'm never going to show these slides I guess. So like, go ahead, knock yourself out and continue talking Mr. VC, because you that's what you're good at. Yep yep yep.
01:26:12:13 - 01:26:32:14
Hampus Jakobsson
And then I try to tell them what they do, like, you know, a minute or 2 or 3. I like this is what I think you do. And usually the entrepreneurs have it both because I get it between 50 and, you know 80% the best. So they're just like sitting there like interesting. Because now, like if they told me first and I kind of gave them a trick critique why they didn't understand, it's like nasty critique.
01:26:32:16 - 01:26:35:24
Hampus Jakobsson
The good thing now is like because like, I started, they immediately know.
01:26:36:00 - 01:26:39:04
Hampus Jakobsson
What they actually have communicated wrong.
01:26:39:06 - 01:26:40:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Maybe I'm dumb, so maybe.
01:26:40:05 - 01:26:43:16
Hampus Jakobsson
I didn't get some things right. But they realized, like, I've send those signals to you.
01:26:43:18 - 01:26:44:06
Hampus Jakobsson
This is what.
01:26:44:06 - 01:26:45:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Bounces back from the error.
01:26:45:21 - 01:26:50:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Interesting. So then they go like, why do you think it's like that? And then I explain that they're like, oh, interesting.
01:26:50:18 - 01:26:51:14
Hampus Jakobsson
It's not all like that.
01:26:51:15 - 01:26:54:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Like this is correct. And now they don't have to bother.
01:26:54:12 - 01:26:56:14
Hampus Jakobsson
The coming ten minutes. I'm explaining this because they know I know it.
01:26:56:14 - 01:27:06:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Right. So now they can say no. So like sales can have like you can inject live DNA into cells and like what. Yeah, it's just a mess.
01:27:06:02 - 01:27:12:19
Hampus Jakobsson
And transcription is just like, it's not that it's a long strand. And like, you know, you kind of move. It's it's not like a zipper. Right. Just goes through and finds next thing.
01:27:12:22 - 01:27:13:04
Hampus Jakobsson
It's just.
01:27:13:04 - 01:27:18:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Like a ton of stuff lying around. And some code is like found by intrepid and being and like, you know, compile and run.
01:27:19:01 - 01:27:19:18
Hampus Jakobsson
So like, you can just put.
01:27:19:19 - 01:27:21:24
Hampus Jakobsson
In like DNA, it just dies fairly quickly.
01:27:22:01 - 01:27:40:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Oh shit I don't know. No. Exactly. So that's kind of fun a minute and now like oh now I understand why that works. Oh shit, I think I do. Right. So now they're able to show tolerance and openness quite a lot. Right. They get that I don't get it. But they also kind of focus on the time and actually trying to explain something really, really hard for me, which I think is such an extraordinary.
01:27:40:13 - 01:27:42:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Trait of intelligence that.
01:27:42:19 - 01:27:45:12
Hampus Jakobsson
They have to kind of find their footing very quickly.
01:27:45:14 - 01:27:50:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Like that's the whole thing about like me talking about Bristol, Vienna, it's like very strange right now.
01:27:50:01 - 01:27:50:17
Hampus Jakobsson
But to them, I.
01:27:50:17 - 01:27:51:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Mean, pitching them is very strange.
01:27:51:18 - 01:27:53:05
Hampus Jakobsson
And now, like, I see how agile.
01:27:53:05 - 01:27:54:09
Hampus Jakobsson
They are as people.
01:27:54:11 - 01:27:56:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Number two is they have to show a.
01:27:56:00 - 01:27:56:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Lot of openness, the fact.
01:27:56:24 - 01:28:10:13
Hampus Jakobsson
That I don't completely get it. Then how do they explain this to me? And they have to show a lot of like just raw intelligence and empathy and like, how do I explain to somebody who hasn't done their PhD in biology, like, do you know what a cell is like, guess, okay.
01:28:10:15 - 01:28:13:22
Hampus Jakobsson
You know, a cell membrane. Yes. Okay. I see some hesitation.
01:28:13:22 - 01:28:29:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Let me explain. And that's just so, so much of the thing day to day. Like it shows like how we will interact in the future because there are certain things I will say to them. It's like, I don't think that we're priced right. And we will find that conversation simulated in this first conversation. So this is a lot for me.
01:28:29:10 - 01:28:43:02
Hampus Jakobsson
So like for me, I index so heavily on like extraordinary people like we like we're wandering towards the direction I like. So like if you say that you're doing a used sock market in Vienna, I have a hard time.
01:28:43:02 - 01:28:45:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Seeing like $1 billion market to use socks.
01:28:45:01 - 01:28:49:15
Hampus Jakobsson
In Vienna. But if you tell me no, no, no, no, no, this is just the onramp into building,
01:28:49:17 - 01:28:50:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Essentially a space industry.
01:28:50:19 - 01:28:53:07
Hampus Jakobsson
In Kenya, because Kenya is the best situated.
01:28:53:07 - 01:28:54:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Part of the world because it's in.
01:28:54:21 - 01:28:57:03
Hampus Jakobsson
European time zones. But the east of.
01:28:57:03 - 01:29:01:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Kenya is water. So if anything falls down and falls into water, which means that it's a one of the best ramps and.
01:29:01:19 - 01:29:03:09
Hampus Jakobsson
You want to release everything east.
01:29:03:14 - 01:29:05:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Because the world spins in that direction, which means.
01:29:05:18 - 01:29:10:18
Hampus Jakobsson
That it's easier that way. I, like I have never oh my God. But now I'm going like, hey, hey, Christian.
01:29:10:18 - 01:29:13:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Get me from the socks to the rocket ship. You're like, okay.
01:29:13:05 - 01:29:18:17
Hampus Jakobsson
I'll get it. And if you're able to get me there, I'm like, should do the socks companies because it's going to be one of the best Kenyan.
01:29:18:17 - 01:29:19:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Rocket tech companies. I love.
01:29:19:16 - 01:29:20:07
Hampus Jakobsson
This.
01:29:20:09 - 01:29:21:17
Hampus Jakobsson
The socks the and the rockets are.
01:29:21:17 - 01:29:25:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Quite it's going to be a couple of years, but I feel like Christian is the kind of person.
01:29:25:20 - 01:29:26:15
Hampus Jakobsson
That we're able to do this because.
01:29:26:15 - 01:29:34:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Like how we handle this call his ambition levels like the quick mind. And then I have to think, how much money does he need? Because if you need 400.
01:29:34:03 - 01:29:36:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Dollars, we're not the one. We don't have that much money.
01:29:36:14 - 01:29:41:05
Hampus Jakobsson
So that's like much. Just like any relationship, this is like that, this Mormon relationship.
01:29:41:05 - 01:29:41:24
Hampus Jakobsson
That we're coming into.
01:29:42:05 - 01:29:48:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Like I have to figure out, like, if can work, can we be married at all? Like, just logistically, can we be married? Right. but also the.
01:29:48:17 - 01:29:51:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Big thing is like, when do we fall in love? And we, we enjoy working
01:29:51:02 - 01:29:52:06
Hampus Jakobsson
together.
01:29:52:08 - 01:29:56:17
Christian Soschner
So you're basically looking for the Elon Musk's, amongst the entrepreneurs?
01:29:56:19 - 01:29:58:22
Hampus Jakobsson
I'm not sure if that's a great analogy.
01:29:58:24 - 01:30:13:01
Christian Soschner
I, I was just thinking about this rocket to rocket ship, explanation because it came from, x, I think was one of his first ideas. Stands to PayPal, then to Tesla, and now, space X, and he had to speak vision, I think, his biography.
01:30:13:01 - 01:30:17:14
Hampus Jakobsson
From I think that yeah, I was like, no, no, no, no, of course I think that. I think that one.
01:30:17:14 - 01:30:18:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Of the greatest.
01:30:18:11 - 01:30:26:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Things about like, it's one of those things balancing. It's like it's I truly believe that the.
01:30:26:12 - 01:30:28:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Weird thing about the exponential thing about.
01:30:28:03 - 01:30:29:13
Hampus Jakobsson
People is that if you meet a.
01:30:29:13 - 01:30:34:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Person who is, like, way smarter than any of your friends or more gritty or whatever, you want.
01:30:34:02 - 01:30:41:11
Hampus Jakobsson
A straight premiere. The thing is, it's not a powder like the next smart. The smartest person in the world is not.
01:30:41:11 - 01:30:44:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Twice as smart as the second part. Smart, and that person is not quite as smart.
01:30:44:18 - 01:30:52:24
Hampus Jakobsson
So the weird thing is, there's just so much luck and everything, and one of the greatest things about luck is that luck. Luck favors the prepared.
01:30:53:05 - 01:30:58:08
Hampus Jakobsson
We know, know that. Like if you like, if you actually do your work, you're going to be much more higher chance of actually getting it.
01:30:58:10 - 01:31:00:22
Hampus Jakobsson
But luck is one of those things where if you actually.
01:31:00:22 - 01:31:01:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Think it's going to work.
01:31:01:24 - 01:31:08:05
Hampus Jakobsson
And if you're that crazy, it's like you actually get way farther, I think. And most people spend enormous amount of.
01:31:08:05 - 01:31:11:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Energy hindering themselves because they're trying to be normal and trying to fit in.
01:31:11:13 - 01:31:14:02
Hampus Jakobsson
And if you lose that thing and say, okay, I don't need to.
01:31:14:02 - 01:31:14:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Fit in, I don't.
01:31:14:17 - 01:31:18:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Need to be normal, then you can think competing your thoughts and then you.
01:31:18:07 - 01:31:20:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Essentially a lot of times need somebody that says.
01:31:20:22 - 01:31:29:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Yes, well, like, you know, you can do it. So I think that for me, luck goes back to like when I was a kid, I did that drawing like I knew I sucked. I knew I wasn't.
01:31:29:13 - 01:31:30:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Good at drawing.
01:31:30:17 - 01:31:33:03
Hampus Jakobsson
But somebody loved me anyway, which essentially put in a strange.
01:31:33:03 - 01:31:34:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Situation where I was like, I was.
01:31:34:08 - 01:31:42:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Allowed to free roam and just try stuff and test stuff. And as an entrepreneur, you need and some entrepreneurs haven't grown up in a relationship or in a.
01:31:42:03 - 01:31:42:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Life where they.
01:31:42:17 - 01:31:44:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Feel loved. Actually, quite the opposite.
01:31:44:14 - 01:31:48:00
Hampus Jakobsson
They feel like they actually are not loved and they have to prove stuff to the world.
01:31:48:02 - 01:31:49:09
Hampus Jakobsson
And some feel that.
01:31:49:13 - 01:31:51:07
Hampus Jakobsson
The sky's the limit they could never want.
01:31:51:07 - 01:32:09:17
Hampus Jakobsson
And it's very different. But I think at the end of the day it comes with you, like reaching for the top. Like you saying, I'm satisfied with this. Like it needs to be better. And I think that drive is so extraordinary. And the strange thing I find is that I think most people undervalue themselves.
01:32:09:19 - 01:32:13:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Most people don't realize how malleable we are as humans, that.
01:32:13:07 - 01:32:16:13
Hampus Jakobsson
How they take anything that's just.
01:32:16:13 - 01:32:21:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Too easy. I love it when you read like, you know, historical, country, like know.
01:32:21:23 - 01:32:23:04
Hampus Jakobsson
whatever that DNA.
01:32:23:04 - 01:32:27:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Discovery or whatever you need, like, and you think, oh, you know, then they discovered it. They're amazing. Da da.
01:32:27:19 - 01:32:39:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Da da. And then you realize, oh, there were three other teams doing the same thing because like what? At the same time kind of level. And you think like, you know, penicillin, like, I like a lot of these things. Some of them are just random flukes or.
01:32:39:01 - 01:32:46:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Like he was in the right room, of course, like he had prepared. Like, you know, it's not that like, Alexander Fleming, which is like, finally put up like a sword, obeyed.
01:32:46:18 - 01:33:00:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Like he really tried. Right? But it was random that it happened down there, and he just caught the opportunity. But a lot of the other people are like, they were caught. They were just like, you know, the the classical thing about like, why did Bill gates succeed? I mean, Duke it succeeded because his parents.
01:33:00:23 - 01:33:03:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Were able to get him in the right place. He was in the university. They had.
01:33:03:09 - 01:33:04:10
Hampus Jakobsson
A lot of computing power.
01:33:04:10 - 01:33:04:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Back in the days.
01:33:04:22 - 01:33:08:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Nobody had it. He kind of seized it and said, I'm not going to go.
01:33:08:08 - 01:33:09:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Out and date with other people on on.
01:33:09:19 - 01:33:16:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Campus. I'm actually going to sit there and try to get as much computer time as I can, which no one else did. And the thing is, now it's easy to think that.
01:33:16:10 - 01:33:18:22
Hampus Jakobsson
It's the nerds that run the world that people like to know that hang out.
01:33:18:22 - 01:33:23:16
Hampus Jakobsson
With computers. But the same thing with everything, right? Like if you just feel like I think that's a question a lot.
01:33:23:16 - 01:33:26:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Of VCs ask that sometimes can be very irritating.
01:33:26:08 - 01:33:43:14
Hampus Jakobsson
But sometimes I think it's very interesting, which is what do you think that nobody agrees with you on? And I think that's a really I think it's something missing because like, I find a lot of times that like we usually try to think the opposite. Most people are trying to think, how do I how do I don't? How do I make sure I'm not discovered?
01:33:43:16 - 01:33:46:19
Hampus Jakobsson
How to make sure that my impostor syndrome doesn't shine out, that.
01:33:46:19 - 01:33:47:19
Hampus Jakobsson
People don't understand, that.
01:33:47:19 - 01:34:01:15
Hampus Jakobsson
I don't know what I'm doing. And I think all the great on friends, like everybody we work with, most of them have huge imposter syndrome. They think that shit, I don't know what I'm doing. And we say nobody does. Like, I don't know what I'm doing, okay. I have no idea what I'm doing. And like, oh, but you know what?
01:34:01:17 - 01:34:15:09
Hampus Jakobsson
I have no idea what I'm doing. And they're like, oh, okay, shit. But I definitely know more than you. Oh, but then you're great. It's fine. It's like, you know what I mean? So, like, I think it's one of those things where it's so tricky. I think that one has to believe and and it's a constant.
01:34:15:09 - 01:34:19:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Conversation, I think, in the startup system and the entrepreneur system and the entire.
01:34:19:02 - 01:34:32:00
Hampus Jakobsson
System, the founders need to be broken. Or do they need to like, be loved? and I think that most sadly stay broken. And I do sometimes like, I don't know, I don't necessarily think you need to be broken. I think that I think it's just like you need.
01:34:32:00 - 01:34:33:21
Hampus Jakobsson
To have a very strong and intrinsic.
01:34:33:21 - 01:34:42:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Drive and you want to like, win. It's something I think it's, I think that I, it doesn't have a company in the.
01:34:42:05 - 01:34:58:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Which I skip in my bio that was like, sales operations, efficiency startup product. and we talked about, like, these amazing sales operations people that are the ones that keep the CRM systems, their customization management system, something like that. All the big corp is in the world. Keep them clean so you can actually predict stuff and create like quarter reports.
01:34:58:17 - 01:34:59:00
Hampus Jakobsson
and these.
01:34:59:00 - 01:35:07:13
Hampus Jakobsson
People are like, nobody knows about them. They're like the I.T managers that I've seen in the corner. They complain that Salesforce isn't filled out correctly. And it's really strange because they're very, very vital in the system.
01:35:07:15 - 01:35:08:00
Hampus Jakobsson
But it's so.
01:35:08:00 - 01:35:14:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Funny because we talked to some of these people and ask them, like how sales are, how do they engage salespeople, how do they build actually self-sufficiency?
01:35:14:01 - 01:35:15:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Because sales is one of those things.
01:35:15:09 - 01:35:18:20
Hampus Jakobsson
It's like it's a boring thing. It's a dark magic. Some people are persuasive.
01:35:18:24 - 01:35:19:23
Hampus Jakobsson
But then you look at actually.
01:35:19:23 - 01:35:21:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Data and like what I did for four years.
01:35:21:20 - 01:35:22:07
Hampus Jakobsson
It's not.
01:35:22:11 - 01:35:25:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Like some people are persuasive and they're great. Right? But the thing is that.
01:35:25:08 - 01:35:26:13
Hampus Jakobsson
It is it's a system.
01:35:26:15 - 01:35:31:19
Hampus Jakobsson
It's like you have to have it quick enough to style. You have to be able to do certain things. Otherwise you can't get people all over.
01:35:32:18 - 01:35:38:03
Hampus Jakobsson
And it's also like we very much view sales. A lot of times it's very malicious and like, you know, it's like tricking people.
01:35:38:05 - 01:35:54:04
Hampus Jakobsson
But I think it's fascinating because I think that when you actually look at look at that trait, it's a lot of empathy as well. Right? But most of all, it's a drive. It's a drive. And what this one of these people told me, this magical thing was that when he recruited salespeople, he said he showed them three things.
01:35:54:06 - 01:36:04:04
Hampus Jakobsson
And I do this still today with people like he showed them a dollar sign, the word winning and the word recognition. And he said, which ones do you want? And he said, everybody, every.
01:36:04:04 - 01:36:09:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Salesperson coming through the door pointed at the dollar sign. It's like, I want the dollars. He said, this intervenes now.
01:36:09:01 - 01:36:11:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Thank you very much, because he said, I.
01:36:11:02 - 01:36:13:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Can't have a salesperson who wants money.
01:36:13:02 - 01:36:18:02
Hampus Jakobsson
And even if we all think, what, isn't that what all salespeople want? Because the thing is, it goes up and down, up and down.
01:36:18:02 - 01:36:31:15
Hampus Jakobsson
In some quarters. You win. Sometimes you're not. And you're just going to be like, you're going to be like this. The the true story of the people who died in Vietnam War being prisoners, because when Christmas came, they weren't left out. They were just so disappointed. Whereas the ones who were the Stoics, who just stayed in there and think, okay, I'm just going.
01:36:31:15 - 01:36:32:14
Hampus Jakobsson
To, you know.
01:36:32:16 - 01:36:33:14
Hampus Jakobsson
They were the ones that.
01:36:33:14 - 01:36:36:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Actually got it back. And then I said, like the people who said recognition, I don't.
01:36:36:15 - 01:36:37:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Want to hire them as salespeople.
01:36:37:16 - 01:36:39:15
Hampus Jakobsson
They should be in customer success and support.
01:36:39:20 - 01:36:41:19
Hampus Jakobsson
They're the ones that won. I'd like to thank you for the customer.
01:36:41:24 - 01:36:48:14
Hampus Jakobsson
This has put. We're never going to thank you from the customer. I want the person I say winning. I want the person who says I want to feel.
01:36:48:14 - 01:36:49:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Inside my body.
01:36:49:04 - 01:36:55:13
Hampus Jakobsson
That we want. That's what I want. And that is the very same thing with entrepreneurs. If you want the dollars.
01:36:55:18 - 01:36:56:15
Hampus Jakobsson
You're not going to dull the great.
01:36:56:15 - 01:36:57:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Company.
01:36:57:04 - 01:36:57:14
Hampus Jakobsson
If you want the.
01:36:57:14 - 01:36:58:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Recognition, you'll be.
01:36:58:15 - 01:37:00:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Famous, but you're not going to be a great company.
01:37:00:15 - 01:37:03:16
Hampus Jakobsson
If you want to win and win in your heart.
01:37:03:18 - 01:37:05:10
Hampus Jakobsson
You can actually build something which is truly
01:37:05:10 - 01:37:06:24
Hampus Jakobsson
great.
01:37:07:01 - 01:37:25:02
Christian Soschner
That the downside of the power, though, is that success comes very late. So typically victories come after 10 or 20 years period and not at the beginning, not in the way that people envision it. And I think this is why many entrepreneurs stumble after two, 3 or 4 years. that's the big wins. Don't come in right away.
01:37:25:02 - 01:37:43:05
Christian Soschner
You need to add another ten years and push through and move forward. But I found very interesting in your explanation was, your story from your childhood. Spare your pain. It's deeper. I mean, basically every time I've been to based out of something, it sucks. So it's it's it's, quite natural. and then people need to push through.
01:37:43:07 - 01:38:08:08
Christian Soschner
And being explorative is a great thing. I mean, going out, talking to different people, down in new things, trying new things out, until they have a hit with a company. But then you find it very interesting, this turning point, like in your story from your company, you started something you explore to try new things out and then head to head in the mobile industry and started scaling to 180 people.
01:38:08:10 - 01:38:39:12
Christian Soschner
And I found in my environments that many entrepreneurs can't get out of this creative mindset and just exploring and say, okay, throw it away, it works and bugs. So the next thing, how do you handle that? That's a venture capitalist. I mean, you need to make money at the end of the day. How do you get a support people to switch from these creative mindsets on a corporate level to the scaling mindset and say, okay, now focus creativity is over, at least for this part.
01:38:39:14 - 01:38:43:03
Christian Soschner
Focus and move that fall back and scale it up. Oh yeah.
01:38:43:05 - 01:38:43:20
Hampus Jakobsson
I think
01:38:43:20 - 01:38:44:16
Hampus Jakobsson
that is it's not enough.
01:38:44:16 - 01:38:46:18
Hampus Jakobsson
It's not that big of a problem for us, because I think that.
01:38:46:18 - 01:38:52:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Many of the people we meet and date, they've already taken that leap. So like the thing is that if we would have I think.
01:38:52:13 - 01:39:02:23
Hampus Jakobsson
One of the reasons I think that we need a lot of like open research and university research is that it's like research for you getting tenure retreats, you getting your PhD together, which means you have to go where no one has.
01:39:02:23 - 01:39:04:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Gone before. Like you get a.
01:39:04:17 - 01:39:11:06
Hampus Jakobsson
PhD by showing something that no one else showed before. Which means that a lot of times you read a PhD thesis and you're like, who in the world needs this?
01:39:11:12 - 01:39:13:13
Hampus Jakobsson
But it's because the person had to wander off.
01:39:13:15 - 01:39:24:19
Hampus Jakobsson
And like, talk about like, Nick. Great. So roots and like electro currency, if they can actually do this and that, then, you know, does this effect like tree bark or not that different, like how do you come up with this? And I'm like, because no one did it.
01:39:24:19 - 01:39:27:16
Hampus Jakobsson
So I had I had to do this right. And I think the, the headache.
01:39:27:16 - 01:39:29:11
Hampus Jakobsson
With trying to get that person to say, how do you.
01:39:29:11 - 01:39:32:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Commercial essence is the person that's not trying to, that the.
01:39:32:09 - 01:39:35:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Person is trying to go or no one has been gone before and just lift the flag and saying.
01:39:35:14 - 01:39:40:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Well, no one's better. And now I can explain this, but I can maybe.
01:39:40:13 - 01:39:41:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Have a chance on the PhD. Right?
01:39:42:01 - 01:39:53:22
Hampus Jakobsson
So like, that's that's one kind that people are not like trained to write. And if you take a corporate environment, people are essentially trained to keep their jobs like you, just like do not do anything because the thing is you will very rarely.
01:39:53:22 - 01:39:57:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Be promoted something different. But it was very highly be risk, be fired.
01:39:57:11 - 01:40:00:02
Hampus Jakobsson
So like that there like that distribution curve.
01:40:00:02 - 01:40:00:15
Hampus Jakobsson
And in corporate.
01:40:00:15 - 01:40:06:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Is very different. Like you essentially have high high risk, very low reward. It's is like your behavior.
01:40:06:17 - 01:40:07:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Is like an.
01:40:07:01 - 01:40:21:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Optimized. So the interesting thing is, like the lot of people we worked with then kind of honed in on a problem they want to solve and maybe even a solution kind of kind. Exactly. And now sometimes we actually have to pull them out of it a bit and be like, oh, well, yeah, I know you want to do this, but like, maybe this.
01:40:21:11 - 01:40:22:06
Hampus Jakobsson
What do you think about this?
01:40:22:06 - 01:40:23:09
Hampus Jakobsson
What are the risks long term?
01:40:23:09 - 01:40:26:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Right. So like a lot of the balance thing is like we actually need.
01:40:26:08 - 01:40:28:00
Hampus Jakobsson
People who are like in the midst of ski.
01:40:28:01 - 01:40:30:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Track. They're just like pounding along like skiing in this race.
01:40:30:23 - 01:40:31:11
Hampus Jakobsson
And they're like, they know.
01:40:31:11 - 01:40:43:19
Hampus Jakobsson
What they're doing. And we come along, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You need to like, you know, get the wax off your skis. And they're like, I have no time to break. Just give me more fuel, give me power bars and I can go faster. And I like we will actually take it off the ski track, like.
01:40:43:21 - 01:40:44:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Like. Wait a.
01:40:44:23 - 01:40:46:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Minute. Let's talk about your ski technique.
01:40:46:08 - 01:40:54:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Right. And it's one of those things that if you want to win the local race, you should just never take off your skis, just ski and get more energy, caffeine.
01:40:54:17 - 01:40:56:03
Hampus Jakobsson
And sugar into your body to ski and win the.
01:40:56:03 - 01:41:00:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Race. If you want to win the Olympics, you just have to have a lot of time where you actually.
01:41:00:22 - 01:41:01:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Get off the ski track.
01:41:01:19 - 01:41:02:21
Hampus Jakobsson
And watch videos for other.
01:41:03:00 - 01:41:04:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Skiers and ask people about advice.
01:41:04:19 - 01:41:13:13
Hampus Jakobsson
And stuff. So that's the interesting thing. We meet a lot of people who said, I want to win the Olympics, and we're like, oh, interesting, okay, let's figure it out. But I think that, like if you play.
01:41:13:13 - 01:41:15:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Back to where the conversation like.
01:41:15:06 - 01:41:17:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Started with the entrepreneur, I don't meet the people and they don't.
01:41:17:23 - 01:41:18:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Start with comments like, I want to.
01:41:18:23 - 01:41:19:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Be in Olympics.
01:41:19:23 - 01:41:24:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Because then usually we want to invest for the like. So okay, that was like, I'm not sure we want this conversation.
01:41:24:23 - 01:41:26:12
Hampus Jakobsson
We want a conversation like, who are you?
01:41:26:12 - 01:41:28:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Why are we doing this? What do you think about the world?
01:41:28:00 - 01:41:29:03
Hampus Jakobsson
And let me expand back.
01:41:29:03 - 01:41:30:08
Hampus Jakobsson
To and all this like quirkiness.
01:41:30:08 - 01:41:37:13
Hampus Jakobsson
To figure out if you actually how how do you handle it? Because a lot of times if you say one event, it impacts you're the skier in the ski track have no.
01:41:37:13 - 01:41:39:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Time to talk about how to access.
01:41:39:11 - 01:41:42:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Skis. But if you're the person who is like, now having a very.
01:41:42:20 - 01:41:44:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Esoteric conversations about everything.
01:41:44:18 - 01:41:46:04
Hampus Jakobsson
We know that we can easily.
01:41:46:04 - 01:41:48:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Take you off the ski track and talk about like.
01:41:48:09 - 01:41:54:22
Hampus Jakobsson
You're actually going to be one of them. We think you're going to be one of the best players in the world. If you if you look at your body composition.
01:41:54:24 - 01:41:56:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Your pole vaulter.
01:41:56:07 - 01:41:56:22
Hampus Jakobsson
And you're like, I want.
01:41:56:22 - 01:41:57:24
Hampus Jakobsson
To be a ski resort, I know.
01:41:57:24 - 01:41:59:18
Hampus Jakobsson
You're saying that, but you don't look.
01:41:59:18 - 01:42:00:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Like a ski racer.
01:42:00:09 - 01:42:02:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Maybe let's let's do one more try like that.
01:42:02:03 - 01:42:04:09
Hampus Jakobsson
I can promise you that. You were a pole vaulter.
01:42:04:09 - 01:42:09:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Like body. So, like, there are many people that come to you. And, like, if you take that analogy, it is isn't like enterprise.
01:42:09:11 - 01:42:10:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Small, medium businesses and consumer.
01:42:10:22 - 01:42:20:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Sales. Those are so different. If you look at a company selling to consumers, essentially it is more or less the least time you spent in production.
01:42:20:22 - 01:42:22:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Talking to customers, the better it is.
01:42:22:10 - 01:42:26:23
Hampus Jakobsson
You essentially just need to ship it out the door and don't get them to ask questions because you're giving so much little.
01:42:26:24 - 01:42:31:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Money per conversation. So any conversation I have is a waste of time.
01:42:31:06 - 01:42:31:20
Hampus Jakobsson
If you look.
01:42:31:20 - 01:42:33:15
Hampus Jakobsson
At the mid part for you doing small and medium.
01:42:33:15 - 01:42:35:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Businesses, you're working with.
01:42:35:13 - 01:42:37:10
Hampus Jakobsson
People that think they're important. But in the grand.
01:42:37:10 - 01:42:43:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Scheme of things, they're important but not that important to you because they don't give you millions. So you have to figure out a way.
01:42:43:11 - 01:42:46:10
Hampus Jakobsson
To like, very efficiently have conversations with them without being irritating.
01:42:46:10 - 01:42:51:08
Hampus Jakobsson
So like, it's not really telemarketing, but it's it it's kind of like, yeah, it's kind of set.
01:42:51:08 - 01:42:56:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Up a way to like have conversations. What's your needs? What's your budget that are not like what's your timeline to do this? Who signs that order?
01:42:56:15 - 01:43:01:18
Hampus Jakobsson
And if you talk to enterprise this is like fair a different this is like you're going have these deep.
01:43:01:18 - 01:43:05:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Conversations about who signs, what's the political order. Like how does this work? Right.
01:43:05:15 - 01:43:11:09
Hampus Jakobsson
So sometimes we can meet a company that has like a very, very interesting product, but it's so clear that it's.
01:43:11:09 - 01:43:13:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Not going to work with small medium businesses because it requires.
01:43:13:22 - 01:43:16:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Like weeks of integration and weeks.
01:43:16:02 - 01:43:19:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Motivations. And so all their profit is going to be gone. And because of customer wouldn't pay this.
01:43:20:00 - 01:43:25:08
Hampus Jakobsson
But for enterprise this would work. So the question now is like, are you interested in talking to big corporates.
01:43:25:08 - 01:43:25:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Or like.
01:43:25:22 - 01:43:37:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Do you want to not do this? So this is like one of those conversations where we have with people and we kind of figure out, I think there's a company there if you just maybe you should look at this and we don't know. Right. Like this is one of the interesting things. We're not ski athletes.
01:43:37:18 - 01:43:39:12
Hampus Jakobsson
We're not like we're not the pole vaulter.
01:43:39:12 - 01:43:52:07
Hampus Jakobsson
So whatever things we just have, you know, we have done one sports and then we've watched a ton of sports. So for us it's like maybe actually your body composition now the pole vaulter could actually make.
01:43:52:07 - 01:43:53:17
Hampus Jakobsson
You one of the best ski racers.
01:43:53:19 - 01:44:03:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Maybe like, I don't know, the interesting up. Let's actually think about this. And that open mindedness from both sides is so like it leads us great ways. And I mean, I have to think about it. We need enormous.
01:44:03:20 - 01:44:07:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Amount of companies every week and we say, no, thank you. I'm not going to waste your time.
01:44:07:16 - 01:44:08:19
Hampus Jakobsson
To 95.
01:44:08:19 - 01:44:11:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Percent. Plus of all those conversations are work.
01:44:11:05 - 01:44:15:06
Hampus Jakobsson
And then a handful of them, we say we should talk again and you should talk to.
01:44:15:06 - 01:44:17:13
Hampus Jakobsson
One of my co founders. And we try to like figure this out.
01:44:17:16 - 01:44:20:02
Hampus Jakobsson
And most of them we say, no.
01:44:20:02 - 01:44:20:14
Hampus Jakobsson
We're not going to.
01:44:20:14 - 01:44:45:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Do right. And then there's a handful of them that we just say, yeah, we should invest in this. And the funny thing is some of these, like, we have at least one company that we invest in because the person who talks them could not say no. The person talk to trying to get the person said no twice. So no, the company thought it up and then got that like one of us on a call again, and then that person said, no.
01:44:45:23 - 01:44:48:01
Hampus Jakobsson
After a lot of consideration and I'm trying to check.
01:44:48:03 - 01:44:59:08
Hampus Jakobsson
And that person came out of room. And one of them also said, why can't you say, know the person I don't know, I like I don't know, like they they just kept me on the phone again and again. I mean, and they're not salesy people like they did, just like intellectually.
01:44:59:08 - 01:45:00:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Got the person back.
01:45:00:03 - 01:45:21:23
Hampus Jakobsson
On track again. And then we just said we should invest. What? Why? Because the fact that they get you back again shows that they're able to kind of level with you in a way that is inhumane. It's an outlier thing that they're able to get you back in a busy week. We have so many other things to do, and the rest of us like, yeah, I think we should invest and we listen.
01:45:21:23 - 01:45:32:14
Hampus Jakobsson
And of course we were positive to the company, but it was crazy that the fact that one of the things in it was the fact that we just like, we can't say no, this is interesting. And most the time we actually say no, we say no to so.
01:45:32:14 - 01:45:34:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Many companies that all three of us think it's a good.
01:45:34:16 - 01:45:45:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Company. But none of us loves so the most. So we just feel like this is going to be great, but not, I don't know, like, and not because they're bad people. It's just because I don't think it's fun.
01:45:45:16 - 01:46:04:04
Christian Soschner
I mean, given the limited amount of capital it's created and the amount of opportunities on the market, it's quite clear that you have to say no very often. But with this case that you mentioned, I understood you in a way that you lost your ability of saying no to this one case. What made this case so different?
01:46:04:06 - 01:46:05:00
Hampus Jakobsson
I think in that
01:46:05:00 - 01:46:05:07
Hampus Jakobsson
it was.
01:46:05:07 - 01:46:11:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, I think it was one of those companies where it was just the founders. Hey, it's like they didn't have a lot that is strong. This is what they build.
01:46:11:14 - 01:46:12:06
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think what's funny.
01:46:12:06 - 01:46:12:22
Hampus Jakobsson
About it is that.
01:46:12:22 - 01:46:18:02
Hampus Jakobsson
When you're in that early and you don't have a product, like the thing is that it's really about.
01:46:18:02 - 01:46:20:01
Hampus Jakobsson
People, right? It's really, really about people.
01:46:20:03 - 01:46:21:22
Hampus Jakobsson
And it's about how they were so.
01:46:21:22 - 01:46:23:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Dynamic and so smart.
01:46:23:07 - 01:46:24:19
Hampus Jakobsson
And they they also actually.
01:46:24:19 - 01:46:27:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Built the company for exactly the right reasons. Like, we felt we had.
01:46:27:05 - 01:46:28:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Huge.
01:46:28:03 - 01:46:33:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Empathy for the goal. We really like the goal and the people. And you're super smart and super gritty.
01:46:33:12 - 01:46:34:16
Hampus Jakobsson
But we just felt like, oh.
01:46:34:16 - 01:46:36:01
Hampus Jakobsson
This is going to be messy market, I don't.
01:46:36:01 - 01:46:36:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Know. But then
01:46:36:22 - 01:46:41:14
Hampus Jakobsson
like, we just felt that these people like sometimes I think we end up investing like the.
01:46:41:14 - 01:46:43:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Progressive bit for all us always. We love.
01:46:43:16 - 01:46:47:15
Hampus Jakobsson
The people. Like if we don't love the people, it doesn't matter. Like we have so.
01:46:47:15 - 01:46:51:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Many companies where we say it's an amazing company.
01:46:51:12 - 01:46:54:09
Hampus Jakobsson
I like the people, but I don't know the people. There were nothing.
01:46:54:09 - 01:46:59:10
Hampus Jakobsson
But it doesn't matter because we're going to be married like for ten years. Like it doesn't matter. Like I'm not gonna be able.
01:46:59:10 - 01:47:02:20
Hampus Jakobsson
To do it. and they're not bad people like the printing.
01:47:02:20 - 01:47:07:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Companies we meet. We're like, oh, this is really nice and this amazing opportunity, but I can spend my days with this.
01:47:08:00 - 01:47:19:03
Hampus Jakobsson
But then you have people who are like, we love the people, but sometimes we struggle with the idea, which is like, I just, I just don't like this. So I had a I had dinner said Sunday night, which was a company I met for two weeks, which is very long. I met.
01:47:19:05 - 01:47:23:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Multiple times. I had multiple WhatsApp chats with them and messages and everything.
01:47:23:18 - 01:47:33:17
Hampus Jakobsson
And, I just felt and then I was like, I love them people. I think they're going to be extraordinary. I just, I can just see this business working this way. I just can't. And I think I could easily.
01:47:33:17 - 01:47:36:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Work with them. The only reason I spent, wasted so much of their time.
01:47:36:18 - 01:47:37:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Was the.
01:47:37:01 - 01:47:40:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Fact that I really felt their extraordinary people I really enjoyed working with.
01:47:40:06 - 01:47:46:20
Hampus Jakobsson
To them. But then I just felt, I think they're building it up. They have to probably pivot once.
01:47:46:20 - 01:47:48:01
Hampus Jakobsson
One have to probably fix this step.
01:47:48:04 - 01:47:54:06
Hampus Jakobsson
A fix that. I think they actually do that better without capital because the problem is like if they get a lot of rocket fuel.
01:47:54:08 - 01:47:55:22
Hampus Jakobsson
They will start skating along this.
01:47:56:00 - 01:48:00:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Ramp and they probably need to kind of.
01:48:00:07 - 01:48:01:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Walk in the desert.
01:48:01:07 - 01:48:03:03
Hampus Jakobsson
And go back.
01:48:03:05 - 01:48:08:20
Hampus Jakobsson
First. And if they do that, they come back and say, actually, we we thought rethinking it, we're gonna go directly to the rocket ship and.
01:48:08:20 - 01:48:16:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Not actually socks. And we're like, great brain. And now we have companies where we've said, no, and then we.
01:48:16:10 - 01:48:23:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Coach them and work with them for months. And then suddenly one day we just said, after six weeks, we'd love to drop like I did one of those investments last year where the founder of this.
01:48:23:23 - 01:48:33:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Call said, like what? And I was like, yeah, now I really love this. And he said, but you said, this isn't this is this, this is hard. Yeah. But it's really.
01:48:33:08 - 01:48:35:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Fun to work with. And I think that you're it's there.
01:48:35:13 - 01:48:39:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Essentially, if there's anybody who will make it, it will be. And that's like.
01:48:39:20 - 01:48:41:23
Hampus Jakobsson
The worth worth taking.
01:48:42:00 - 01:49:00:14
Christian Soschner
I totally agree, having some hardship helps. straightening out state and getting in the right direction. when do you feel that, it's the right time to provide fuel to entrepreneurs instead of letting them walk, some miles more in the desert. But stay at the right point in time. In your opinion, how do you identify it?
01:49:00:16 - 01:49:04:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Yeah, it's it's very, very tricky. I think it's really, really tricky because I think that.
01:49:04:19 - 01:49:06:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Like many, many, many, many, it's it's.
01:49:06:18 - 01:49:12:20
Hampus Jakobsson
All boils down to like a couple of different things. But one is the how the founder handles money. Like will they start burning cash and.
01:49:12:20 - 01:49:13:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Scaling one is.
01:49:13:24 - 01:49:16:21
Hampus Jakobsson
The market maturity. It's like sometimes you can actually.
01:49:16:23 - 01:49:17:12
Hampus Jakobsson
You can throw.
01:49:17:12 - 01:49:20:00
Hampus Jakobsson
A complete shit out and it just sticks and it starts growing.
01:49:20:03 - 01:49:23:24
Hampus Jakobsson
And you're like, okay, it works. But we know that it doesn't work. Like we know that.
01:49:23:24 - 01:49:25:10
Hampus Jakobsson
The reason this works is that the.
01:49:25:10 - 01:49:28:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Demand is huge and like.
01:49:28:00 - 01:49:29:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Your product is mediocre.
01:49:29:18 - 01:49:32:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Plus, but there's nothing else there.
01:49:32:04 - 01:49:37:14
Hampus Jakobsson
So now it gives us time to actually work closer to the customers and actually figure out the need and actually, like, solve it the right way.
01:49:37:16 - 01:49:38:13
Hampus Jakobsson
And I mean, that was how.
01:49:38:13 - 01:49:43:10
Hampus Jakobsson
My first company was built. I mean, if you look at what we built, it was not that our solution was like ten out of ten stars. It was just.
01:49:43:10 - 01:49:49:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Like it was impossible. Nobody could solve it. We solved it in a mediocre way. But then we had two years.
01:49:49:10 - 01:49:50:12
Hampus Jakobsson
To take mediocre to.
01:49:50:12 - 01:49:51:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Good, and then we.
01:49:51:09 - 01:49:56:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Had six more years to take mediocre to very good. And then we had like 1 or 2 years to take be like good to excellent.
01:49:56:18 - 01:50:02:09
Hampus Jakobsson
But like, I mean, like in the beginning there was nothing. So we had time to work super close to it. So there's so many of these.
01:50:02:09 - 01:50:03:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Factors where like we talked.
01:50:03:11 - 01:50:05:17
Hampus Jakobsson
To founders, and I think that one of the things.
01:50:05:19 - 01:50:06:20
Hampus Jakobsson
I think a lot about is.
01:50:06:20 - 01:50:14:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Also what kind of pain we're putting people through, because there are some people who just don't have your opportunity. Like if you don't give them the money, they.
01:50:14:24 - 01:50:17:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Will not start this company. They won't try.
01:50:17:03 - 01:50:25:21
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that's the other thing is like sometimes we meet people where we feel like it's a very delicate balance because we don't want to give people money because we want them to succeed. We need to give them money because.
01:50:25:21 - 01:50:27:07
Hampus Jakobsson
We think they will succeed. Because at the end.
01:50:27:07 - 01:50:27:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Of the day, we.
01:50:27:18 - 01:50:28:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Have beneficiaries.
01:50:28:10 - 01:50:29:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Of pension funds. So we can.
01:50:29:20 - 01:50:31:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Just say these are the people that want to get money on the planet.
01:50:31:22 - 01:50:36:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Here's money. So we have to be like, I think this will succeed. I actually think this will succeed. But I have to.
01:50:36:17 - 01:50:39:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Get you to realize that if I give you €1 million right.
01:50:39:07 - 01:50:41:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Now, you can.
01:50:41:05 - 01:50:43:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Just hire a team of 12.
01:50:43:21 - 01:50:44:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Like that's.
01:50:44:09 - 01:50:44:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Not going to.
01:50:44:21 - 01:50:45:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Work. And so we.
01:50:45:24 - 01:50:47:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Had a lot of those conversations, which is like.
01:50:47:09 - 01:50:48:05
Hampus Jakobsson
What are the next steps?
01:50:48:05 - 01:50:51:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Like what's between the socks and the rocket cap for like what's going to happen here?
01:50:51:16 - 01:50:56:23
Hampus Jakobsson
And like, how do we pace it and it's the strange thing. It's like it's also a lot like you can build two kinds.
01:50:56:23 - 01:51:00:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Of companies essentially, like you can in many Chinese companies, but on one, one aspect.
01:51:00:09 - 01:51:01:22
Hampus Jakobsson
And that's you can build a company that.
01:51:01:22 - 01:51:04:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Gets to kind of a cash flow positive so that you don't need more venture.
01:51:04:17 - 01:51:06:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Money to actually survive. Like you.
01:51:06:21 - 01:51:08:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Float, you're like default.
01:51:08:04 - 01:51:10:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Alive. so like you actually have it, like you can actually.
01:51:10:21 - 01:51:12:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Decide if you want to bring in more money to.
01:51:12:06 - 01:51:15:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Scale what you do, but at least now you like, you can decide within.
01:51:15:14 - 01:51:18:08
Hampus Jakobsson
The company, which is like a deep decker company, which is something called, which.
01:51:18:08 - 01:51:22:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Is like you just there's you don't have anything, you just need to get more money to get anything. Right.
01:51:22:15 - 01:51:30:07
Hampus Jakobsson
There's just not enough, for you to, like, there's not enough customer value so that you would actually charge ten, depending on your team size and tech and complexity and timelines.
01:51:30:09 - 01:51:32:07
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that there's certain ideas where we.
01:51:32:08 - 01:51:34:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Just look at and say.
01:51:34:08 - 01:51:43:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Because what strange aspect here is that if you're the second kind of company, you need to get venture capital to come in. Like if you're the first going to company, you can build a company.
01:51:43:21 - 01:51:44:06
Hampus Jakobsson
To the point.
01:51:44:06 - 01:51:46:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Where you're floating. You have lots of time of practice.
01:51:46:13 - 01:51:47:24
Hampus Jakobsson
You're going to be the best surfer.
01:51:48:01 - 01:51:49:15
Hampus Jakobsson
out there. It's going to take time.
01:51:49:15 - 01:51:55:08
Hampus Jakobsson
But people say like, wow, she's the best surfer. Let's go with them. Let's, you know, back them and give them sponsorship. Maybe somebody gives you money at the time.
01:51:55:08 - 01:51:56:20
Hampus Jakobsson
But but you don't actually need it. You can actually just.
01:51:56:20 - 01:51:58:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Prove that you're a great surfer.
01:51:58:04 - 01:52:10:13
Hampus Jakobsson
The second kind of company is like like after 12 months, nobody understand if it even works. But you. But then the question is, can will you be able to get other people to invest? So one.
01:52:10:13 - 01:52:14:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Of the weird things I think venture, which is it's so dank, I remember his first name, he said this amazing.
01:52:14:24 - 01:52:15:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Thing.
01:52:15:14 - 01:52:19:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Canadian entrepreneur, investor, which is like one of the best inventions that venture ever.
01:52:19:19 - 01:52:23:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Did, was calling it valuation and price. Because one of the weird.
01:52:23:18 - 01:52:27:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Things here is like, when we're investing, we're one of the first investors or the first semester.
01:52:28:00 - 01:52:30:08
Hampus Jakobsson
We give you money, and that money is.
01:52:30:08 - 01:52:34:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Essentially so that you get 12 to 18, 24 months to build something. So someone else gives you.
01:52:34:07 - 01:52:36:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Money so that then, you know.
01:52:36:07 - 01:52:39:07
Hampus Jakobsson
12 to 24 months later, someone else gives you money, someone else gives.
01:52:39:07 - 01:52:44:06
Hampus Jakobsson
You money, and then eventually, well, you actually, you're floating and now you have a like a massive ship that's floating.
01:52:44:06 - 01:52:47:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Not like a surfboard. You actually have a massive ship because you actually got so much capital.
01:52:47:06 - 01:52:51:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Right? But the thing there is like if you call it price.
01:52:51:07 - 01:52:52:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Then it's like, oh, we invested this price and we're.
01:52:52:22 - 01:53:08:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, wow, this can't be worth €10 million. It's like it's two people in a shed. Like they have nothing like they have a sketch that the slides are ugly. Right? Then we have like, no, no, no, no, it's not a price, it's a valuation. Eventually we're like five.
01:53:08:10 - 01:53:10:10
Hampus Jakobsson
It's stupid how dumb we are.
01:53:10:12 - 01:53:33:00
Hampus Jakobsson
The next time the raise money, they're like two weeks stupid. Like it's it's it's very expensive. The next time raise money, they're just like one. It's stupid. The next time to raise money. This is sane. And then it shows historically that we were actually smart. If this works, right, because we know probability, it won't. So like we need to do that.
01:53:33:00 - 01:53:40:22
Hampus Jakobsson
It's not like most of the time we didn't work. And the way it works like we were right and the entrepreneurs right. And that's also the thing to.
01:53:40:22 - 01:53:44:12
Hampus Jakobsson
Realize is that some of these people we invest in, not only is this the money, like.
01:53:44:12 - 01:53:45:23
Hampus Jakobsson
We'll give them a shot, but it's very.
01:53:45:23 - 01:53:46:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Important for us to realize.
01:53:46:24 - 01:53:49:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, if they fail this, like fail, quote.
01:53:49:20 - 01:53:50:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Unquote fail, if there are no money.
01:53:50:19 - 01:53:54:14
Hampus Jakobsson
This could be a very bad blow. So we would not invest.
01:53:54:14 - 01:53:55:13
Hampus Jakobsson
In somebody if we feel like.
01:53:55:13 - 01:53:57:09
Hampus Jakobsson
They actually.
01:53:57:11 - 01:54:02:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Back to like are the guys who are entrepreneurs, are they broken or are they loved? I think that if they are truly broken and like an ingredient.
01:54:02:24 - 01:54:08:22
Hampus Jakobsson
That inside way, the problem is like if they fail this, this could have turned really, really bad. So we have a.
01:54:08:22 - 01:54:13:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Lot of responsibility to make sure that you don't walk away from this, like kind of really bad state.
01:54:13:20 - 01:54:14:09
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that I.
01:54:14:09 - 01:54:15:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Try to remind a lot of people that like the.
01:54:15:19 - 01:54:17:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Ways you can fail as an entrepreneur is you.
01:54:17:21 - 01:54:20:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Can run out of your own personal money that you feel like, you know, you're.
01:54:20:24 - 01:54:27:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Infinitely in debt. That is that is fail and it's completely fail. You can do the same with health and friends. You can run in a situation.
01:54:27:23 - 01:54:32:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Where you have no friends and no health and like you're in a really bad state mentally and physically, health and also.
01:54:32:16 - 01:54:40:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Friends. Or you can fail a third time, which is like you become a complete asshole like. And all of these three, I know people.
01:54:40:07 - 01:54:41:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Who built extraordinary.
01:54:41:04 - 01:54:49:09
Hampus Jakobsson
Companies and they reached one of these three states. So they had they had no friends and no health and no nothing. But on paper.
01:54:49:09 - 01:54:50:06
Hampus Jakobsson
There were billionaires maybe, or.
01:54:50:06 - 01:54:54:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Millionaires. And then you have people who are like, great success.
01:54:54:11 - 01:54:55:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Elon, unlike, you know.
01:54:55:07 - 01:55:05:00
Hampus Jakobsson
The TechCrunch media. But they're complete hustles. That's also fame. So I think that but folding your company and running out of money and having to like fire employees.
01:55:05:00 - 01:55:07:08
Hampus Jakobsson
And telling customers doesn't work and telling messages, and what kind of.
01:55:07:08 - 01:55:17:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Money in our world that's normal business, which is very, very hard because it's the same thing is if you're gunning to be the best.
01:55:17:06 - 01:55:19:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Ski racer in the Olympics.
01:55:19:12 - 01:55:31:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Not getting on a pedestal, it's not a failure. It is very normal. Like you competed in the Olympics, like the story. The strange thing is we need and you need to believe that second.
01:55:31:17 - 01:55:33:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Place is first loser.
01:55:34:00 - 01:55:37:03
Hampus Jakobsson
While we have the empathy that this will probably.
01:55:37:03 - 01:55:40:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Not get you on a pedestal.
01:55:40:13 - 01:55:44:22
Christian Soschner
And keep pushing and keep pushing for the next race and keep working for, like, moving forward.
01:55:44:24 - 01:55:48:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Exactly. That's why an even an intrinsic motivation you can't like.
01:55:48:02 - 01:55:55:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Be motivated by like the fancy building or your salary or a title because then you're going to run out of steam the time like you don't get out on Christmas or Easter.
01:55:56:02 - 01:56:00:01
Hampus Jakobsson
You will run out of steam. You need to be like just like Apple of the prize.
01:56:00:01 - 01:56:11:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Like you need to be like, this product can get better. We're only going to have people we love. We're going to be the best company culture. We're going to keep making this rocket ship the best thing ever. This is how this company is supposed to work. Like, we don't allow this. We don't like that. This is how we make it.
01:56:11:15 - 01:56:12:04
Hampus Jakobsson
And people say.
01:56:12:04 - 01:56:15:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Oh, we might be delayed a month.
01:56:15:02 - 01:56:22:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Doesn't matter. Like, I think it's like we have to make it the right way. And that's of course a balance, because you can make it a way where you get, as you said, with creative mode.
01:56:22:09 - 01:56:22:19
Hampus Jakobsson
You can also.
01:56:22:19 - 01:56:24:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Do the other mode where.
01:56:24:08 - 01:56:25:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Like you don't get.
01:56:25:00 - 01:56:30:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Anywhere because like you're a perfectionist and you don't get anything. I mean, the perfectionist is the opposite of getting done.
01:56:30:20 - 01:56:32:04
Hampus Jakobsson
So like I think it's really tricky, right?
01:56:32:05 - 01:56:39:10
Hampus Jakobsson
I think it's really tricky. I think about this and I think I think about the analogy when you said creative, I think it's so funny because look at people playing Minecraft, you can play Minecraft in creative mode.
01:56:39:10 - 01:56:42:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Or survival mode, like it's kind of great.
01:56:42:13 - 01:56:45:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Maybe there it's like I think a lot of startups are running in survival mode.
01:56:45:24 - 01:56:49:08
Hampus Jakobsson
But the way to get good at Minecraft is you're pretty creative mode first.
01:56:49:08 - 01:57:09:02
Christian Soschner
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's it sounds like a lot of hardship. And I think if there was this are a few of the first black, baseball player. that's a great movie. Watch the movie. And I think the thing that, is comparable with, entrepreneurship is that initially it's a lot of hardship, but people need to love the game.
01:57:09:02 - 01:57:27:03
Christian Soschner
It needs to want to stay in the game regardless of the feedback to get. And there was this great scene when, the white trainer said to the black guy, hey, are you really I would you sure you can do that? Because people will hate you when you go out on the pitch. They will hate you for what you do.
01:57:27:03 - 01:57:37:02
Christian Soschner
But you need to stay calm. You need to stay stoic, and you need to push through. how do you identify this character traits in people? How do you test them?
01:57:37:04 - 01:57:37:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Yeah, I
01:57:37:21 - 01:57:38:18
Hampus Jakobsson
think the funny thing is like.
01:57:38:18 - 01:57:48:03
Hampus Jakobsson
This is the conversation I had this morning with this friend in another board where, like we discussed exactly that, like, how do you test is and they were saying like, do you do any test on psychometric testing and scorecards?
01:57:48:04 - 01:57:54:19
Hampus Jakobsson
I think, I think that I don't know, I think we just tried it, you know, it's it's gut feel. And I think that I the funny.
01:57:54:19 - 01:58:01:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Thing, it's like if I told people we had, tests done like, set up that like, a device even that we put on some of these
01:58:01:05 - 01:58:05:15
Hampus Jakobsson
these finger, I think that I think that we could do whatever we wanted because people, people want to hear that.
01:58:05:15 - 01:58:06:12
Hampus Jakobsson
I think at the end of the
01:58:06:12 - 01:58:11:14
Hampus Jakobsson
day, I think that so many professionals in life beat our guts. Our guts. I think it's so funny.
01:58:11:14 - 01:58:27:24
Hampus Jakobsson
I think about this all the time. you know that like that. There are two funny things about getting hired or climbing the corporate ladder is like. One is that people always get fired when they were like when they reached their what is it, top man? Maximum stupidity factor. Right? It's called. And the reason is of course, like you started something and you were great at the job.
01:58:27:24 - 01:58:31:01
Hampus Jakobsson
So you get promoted and you get rated promoted, promoted, promoted, promoted.
01:58:31:01 - 01:58:32:01
Hampus Jakobsson
And the second you stop.
01:58:32:01 - 01:58:32:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Being promoted.
01:58:32:24 - 01:58:33:05
Hampus Jakobsson
That.
01:58:33:05 - 01:58:47:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Means you're not good at your job, right? Which is like a very interesting thing because otherwise you'd be fucked, which means that every person gets promoted when they don't get promoted and you meet people have been the same job for seven years in the same position in the corporate ladder. They're not good at the job. They should go down one step because they were great at the previous thing.
01:58:47:13 - 01:58:49:13
Hampus Jakobsson
So that's kind of one thing. I think it's funny, but I think the.
01:58:49:13 - 01:58:55:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Other thing I think is very funny, which is not true. So anybody in that exact story like I you're not stupid, you're a great person. The other thing I think is really funny.
01:58:55:17 - 01:58:57:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Is that the hire go.
01:58:57:00 - 01:59:01:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Up in there and in their organization, the more you're paid for not knowing.
01:59:01:22 - 01:59:05:02
Hampus Jakobsson
What you're doing, like, if you actually work with a thing.
01:59:05:02 - 01:59:13:03
Hampus Jakobsson
That is like that, the thing that you start to be doing if you're a developer or like a whatever, a publisher or like a craft person or like whatever you are, like.
01:59:13:03 - 01:59:17:21
Hampus Jakobsson
The thing or you're good at it because that's the thing you've done, right and you know what you're.
01:59:17:21 - 01:59:18:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Doing because otherwise you wouldn't be.
01:59:18:21 - 01:59:26:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Doing it. And then somebody promotes you, and now you're leading other people and you're not that great. But but you handle, you know, you kind of like, oh, like.
01:59:26:05 - 01:59:27:18
Hampus Jakobsson
This person, see how you do this and I do.
01:59:27:18 - 01:59:28:18
Hampus Jakobsson
This. And then one day.
01:59:28:18 - 01:59:30:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Somebody is like, you're really good at this. You should be promoted.
01:59:30:19 - 01:59:33:02
Hampus Jakobsson
And you're like, I know how to code.
01:59:33:04 - 01:59:37:18
Hampus Jakobsson
I let a small team of coders, but I can't run an organization of coders like, this is what I do. Oh, you're great at it.
01:59:37:20 - 01:59:38:03
Hampus Jakobsson
And now.
01:59:38:03 - 01:59:39:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Actually, what you're doing is that.
01:59:39:06 - 01:59:41:08
Hampus Jakobsson
You're handling you're essentially getting paid to handle.
01:59:41:08 - 01:59:43:11
Hampus Jakobsson
That. You don't know anything but handling anyway.
01:59:43:13 - 01:59:45:09
Hampus Jakobsson
And that's the same thing. The higher up you go.
01:59:45:11 - 01:59:46:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Your salary is.
01:59:46:02 - 01:59:49:14
Hampus Jakobsson
Essentially you don't know what's going to happen. But we trust you.
01:59:49:16 - 02:00:01:06
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that's really funny because that means that if you're an entrepreneur, you essentially are the person that's least good at your job. Because I think that anybody you hire know what they're doing. Hopefully otherwise you would have hired, I mean.
02:00:01:08 - 02:00:26:06
Christian Soschner
Talking about entrepreneurship, I do. I detest that you mentioned I mean, if you see, you're looking for, outlier ideas, contrarian ideas, which means looking for the really tough metals on the market, because if everybody says it's a great idea, there is no value in it anymore because the market is already at the position that the value a company is competitors enough, that they don't want to pay a premium for the next one, except upper.
02:00:27:06 - 02:00:38:15
Hampus Jakobsson
I can think about this. Yeah, I think about this all the time. I don't know how many times, like ten years ago I was invited to talk about angel investing. I think the last 900 plus companies, and I think that somebody asked me like, I one of these Angel forums to talk about my.
02:00:38:15 - 02:00:41:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Angel investment philosophy and strategy in la la la la la.
02:00:41:09 - 02:00:45:09
Hampus Jakobsson
And I kind of said I open it by saying it was like Q&A. And I opened by saying it's like.
02:00:45:11 - 02:00:47:15
Hampus Jakobsson
I essentially want a situation where Christian.
02:00:47:15 - 02:00:54:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Finds it obvious. I find it obvious. No one else finds it obvious. Like, this is what I want. Like I want to be like, this is wool socks to Rockies. I don't mean like I get it.
02:00:54:22 - 02:00:55:19
Hampus Jakobsson
And then I really.
02:00:55:19 - 02:00:58:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Want a situation where everyone else says, yeah, I get it.
02:00:58:05 - 02:00:58:15
Hampus Jakobsson
And it's so.
02:00:58:15 - 02:01:01:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Funny because like whenever anybody says, oh, so what do you mean?
02:01:01:16 - 02:01:07:13
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think that the problem is, like, if everybody thinks it obvious, it either doesn't work because it doesn't work.
02:01:07:13 - 02:01:09:24
Hampus Jakobsson
They can for some reason, because people have tried, right? And not people haven't.
02:01:09:24 - 02:01:13:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Tried or that that if there's so much competition.
02:01:13:00 - 02:01:20:18
Hampus Jakobsson
That the margins are gonna be so thin that it like, I can't make it one day with a scale and you win and operational excellence and startups can't be operational expense. That's like one of the hardest parts to be, writes Sara.
02:01:20:19 - 02:01:22:00
Hampus Jakobsson
It's can only be product.
02:01:22:00 - 02:01:24:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Superiority or customer intimacy, and then they can grind to that.
02:01:24:15 - 02:01:28:19
Hampus Jakobsson
That part they're trying to but it's so funny because like I remember in the.
02:01:28:19 - 02:01:29:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Investor forum, it was.
02:01:29:18 - 02:01:32:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, I think it was like a handful of people that agreed me and like the rest were.
02:01:32:21 - 02:01:33:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Just like.
02:01:33:05 - 02:01:33:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Roaring.
02:01:33:21 - 02:01:34:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Questions about.
02:01:34:16 - 02:01:37:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, thought about that. And it's don't want to share the story.
02:01:37:19 - 02:01:38:11
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, and there's so.
02:01:38:11 - 02:01:41:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Many times I invest in startups where, like, I like I talk.
02:01:41:08 - 02:01:42:20
Hampus Jakobsson
To this founder and this was like back.
02:01:42:20 - 02:01:43:05
Hampus Jakobsson
In.
02:01:43:07 - 02:01:44:10
Hampus Jakobsson
2000.
02:01:44:12 - 02:01:44:19
Hampus Jakobsson
What is
02:01:44:19 - 02:01:47:18
Hampus Jakobsson
is it? 1213, 1415 whatever that, that.
02:01:47:18 - 02:01:58:07
Hampus Jakobsson
That time when I talked and then I said, I'm in, I love this. And the entrepreneur were like, what? And I was like, what do you mean? Like we're having this conversation because we'll be the best. And they're like,
02:01:58:07 - 02:02:00:11
Hampus Jakobsson
no, I just want an advice.
02:02:00:11 - 02:02:01:24
Hampus Jakobsson
And like, I you actually think you want invest?
02:02:02:00 - 02:02:13:22
Hampus Jakobsson
I like why, I guess nobody's ever agreed with me. And I was like, what do you mean? It's like, no, I think most people just think this is done and this is. But that's by mistake. And then we actually had you do like five minutes of untangling what just.
02:02:13:22 - 02:02:15:07
Hampus Jakobsson
Happened because they're just like.
02:02:15:09 - 02:02:22:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Wait, wait, do you think I'm dumb or do you think it's dumb? And I'm like, no, no, no, I think it's good. But I think most people think it's dumb. And there's like this conversation there.
02:02:22:16 - 02:02:25:14
Hampus Jakobsson
The coming five minutes were very interesting when they were like.
02:02:25:16 - 02:02:26:15
Hampus Jakobsson
I'm trying to understand.
02:02:26:15 - 02:02:29:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Now, what's your rationality investing? Like why I like what's happening.
02:02:29:21 - 02:02:31:24
Hampus Jakobsson
And I find so many times I realized, I love this, I.
02:02:31:24 - 02:02:34:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Love this person, I love this idea, and I love that no one else would agree with.
02:02:34:23 - 02:02:35:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Me.
02:02:35:12 - 02:02:39:00
Hampus Jakobsson
And then, of course, there's a there's a degree to that. Like if you must have something that no
02:02:39:00 - 02:02:40:11
Hampus Jakobsson
one will evergreen.
02:02:40:13 - 02:02:43:02
Hampus Jakobsson
You can't get more capital. So like you have.
02:02:43:02 - 02:02:45:17
Hampus Jakobsson
To get something that you can get to a point where people will agree with you.
02:02:45:19 - 02:03:06:17
Christian Soschner
Yeah, but how does this point come? I mean, it depends. I mean, it's for public markets and the private market. But for me, the best current example on the market is Nvidia. I mean, now, cheap semiconductor. It's quite logical. Everybody everybody agrees. Many times everybody agrees. But this is not the point in time then I would say a venture capitalist would want to buy Nvidia because everybody agrees to it.
02:03:06:19 - 02:03:29:20
Christian Soschner
2013 was the time or 2010 or 2000 7 or 2000, 6 or 20 1 or 92 when they started. This was the time when venture capitalists would want to invest, to, you know, eight an example from the private markets that, exemplifies to founders what we see are looking for how to, think should look like the.
02:03:29:20 - 02:03:31:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Timing is off. I mean, the thing.
02:03:31:10 - 02:03:34:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Is, it's all the time for us, right? Like, it's like every single day. I think that
02:03:34:19 - 02:03:42:08
Hampus Jakobsson
the things that get past the first filter are the things that we feel like. This is a fairly dumb thing. Let's try. I think that if one of us has a call, I think.
02:03:42:08 - 02:03:43:09
Hampus Jakobsson
That there's we look at.
02:03:43:11 - 02:03:51:12
Hampus Jakobsson
When you look at the presentation and we feel like it's a bad idea, completely bad idea. And like not, not and not the people we want. We don't take a call. We just said this is problematic, right?
02:03:51:14 - 02:03:51:20
Hampus Jakobsson
it.
02:03:51:20 - 02:03:56:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Could also be like, it's a good idea that we don't actually get enough of it. Like, we don't understand. It's like, let's keep it.
02:03:56:08 - 02:03:57:24
Hampus Jakobsson
but then the idea is we have meetings with.
02:03:58:01 - 02:04:01:01
Hampus Jakobsson
It's like, these are the people. These are the ideas. We think it could have something.
02:04:01:01 - 02:04:03:08
Hampus Jakobsson
And I would say a lot of them, like we actually end up.
02:04:03:08 - 02:04:04:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Saying no either because it's not a.
02:04:04:18 - 02:04:10:07
Hampus Jakobsson
People fit or because we think that this is going to work, but it's not going to be great. And it's really funny.
02:04:10:07 - 02:04:12:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Because like, that's the normal case.
02:04:12:06 - 02:04:14:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Like on a normal day, like when we have lunch, we'd go.
02:04:14:20 - 02:04:27:08
Hampus Jakobsson
Through the 3 or 4 companies we talked to in the morning and said, I think you might like this. Okay, tell me about it. And then the other person tells, I know where less like, you know, I see it working. But tell me about the founder. I think that person says like, yeah.
02:04:27:08 - 02:04:32:21
Hampus Jakobsson
I did this, but then this, this. Yeah, I, we don't see it. I mean, I see, I know.
02:04:32:22 - 02:04:37:07
Hampus Jakobsson
I know what you're saying. This is going to be like 10 million, you know, euro turnover within 2 or 3 years.
02:04:37:07 - 02:04:38:07
Hampus Jakobsson
And let me say that.
02:04:38:07 - 02:04:39:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Like as it's like.
02:04:40:01 - 02:04:46:22
Hampus Jakobsson
But that is like if you think about it, holy shit, that's a big thing. But then we're like, how do you get about 10 million? Isn't this a problem? Yeah I know, do you think the person.
02:04:46:22 - 02:04:47:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Would sell early?
02:04:47:23 - 02:04:50:24
Hampus Jakobsson
No, I don't think so. I don't know. And it's like, oh, let.
02:04:50:24 - 02:04:55:01
Hampus Jakobsson
Me have a call with them. It's like, no I shouldn't product. No, sorry. It's going to be a good company.
02:04:55:05 - 02:05:00:03
Hampus Jakobsson
And then that means no. And it's so funny and it's so funny. And like when the companies.
02:05:00:03 - 02:05:04:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Where we're like, oh my God, this almost makes us so comfortable.
02:05:04:04 - 02:05:04:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Then it's like.
02:05:04:19 - 02:05:06:15
Hampus Jakobsson
That could be like a very quick now or it could be.
02:05:06:15 - 02:05:10:05
Hampus Jakobsson
Like, we should definitely look at this.
02:05:10:07 - 02:05:11:16
Hampus Jakobsson
So it is so strange.
02:05:11:19 - 02:05:29:01
Christian Soschner
It's fantastic talking to you. I just checked, checked the time, and we are two hours into conversation, and, it could easily go another two hours if you were listening to your stories. It's fantastic. And I think I have a lot to say. So we could get this going. how would you like to proceed?
02:05:29:03 - 02:05:31:12
Hampus Jakobsson
I think that my my brain is melting a bit. Now.
02:05:31:14 - 02:05:35:23
Hampus Jakobsson
I get I need a ton of water and a ton of rest and stuff like that. so I think that I would.
02:05:36:00 - 02:05:37:13
Hampus Jakobsson
I mean, like, happen to have, like.
02:05:37:13 - 02:05:53:05
Hampus Jakobsson
If you want a handful of questions I can do, it's better. I think that, I realized I'm starting to lose the beginning of the sentence when I'm in the middle of the sentence. And I think it's also because we have to remember ourselves that I'm not one person. It's like one part of my emergent personality starts a sentence, and then the other part of my personality is trying to figure out where that ends and take over.
02:05:53:05 - 02:06:01:16
Hampus Jakobsson
And right now in this situation is that they're not doing perfect handover. So some of these sentences end in a surprising way, because the other part of me try to finish what the first person said.
02:06:01:18 - 02:06:04:08
Christian Soschner
Yeah, you're creative. You're creative. Guy. And I.
02:06:04:08 - 02:06:04:24
Hampus Jakobsson
Love creativity.
02:06:04:24 - 02:06:06:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Now it's now it's being tired I think.
02:06:06:24 - 02:06:08:05
Hampus Jakobsson
so.
02:06:08:05 - 02:06:15:10
Christian Soschner
is there anything open that you would like to address in the last part before we wrap up?
02:06:15:12 - 02:06:17:19
Hampus Jakobsson
Now, I think that not for me. If you have like if you have questions.
02:06:17:19 - 02:06:24:06
Hampus Jakobsson
That can be answered in like very short sentences. So yes. No, Stan, I'm super happy to have them because that that's the time span I would present.
02:06:24:08 - 02:06:31:02
Christian Soschner
I would prop up with the question, what are you looking for? Which type of founders should reach out to you?
02:06:31:04 - 02:06:33:19
Hampus Jakobsson
It's a good question. I think that if you're working. So. So one thing I didn't.
02:06:33:19 - 02:06:39:20
Hampus Jakobsson
Mention, of course we didn't talk about that. We were in a climate summit. So, like, I think what's important is it needs to be somebody who works with the climate idea.
02:06:39:20 - 02:06:42:12
Hampus Jakobsson
And I think to specify on that is that
02:06:42:12 - 02:06:42:22
Hampus Jakobsson
most.
02:06:42:22 - 02:06:47:06
Hampus Jakobsson
Of the companies, you know, and like me, invested in are not the ones that you think of when you think about tiny company.
02:06:47:06 - 02:06:56:21
Hampus Jakobsson
So when people think about climate, they typically think about growing forests and planting trees or sucking on carbon from the sky. We believe that most like extraordinary climate companies, will we will.
02:06:56:21 - 02:07:01:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Be ones that do something that we do today. But we do it way, way, way, way better.
02:07:01:18 - 02:07:27:15
Hampus Jakobsson
So it might be that's how to transport goods for the next electricity, or how to grow crops in a in like a better way or something. And it's something where like if you think about you realize, oh yeah, this is climate, but it's not going to suck down from the sky. Maybe we've been a handful of sucked down cover of the sky in different types of fun, but most of the entrepreneurs we work with are people who try to take an existing business, and they just make it modern and better and more efficient, which means that it actually is super compatible with the future.
02:07:27:17 - 02:07:28:02
Hampus Jakobsson
so those.
02:07:28:02 - 02:07:31:00
Hampus Jakobsson
Which reach out and the other thing is like we invest super early stage.
02:07:31:02 - 02:07:33:02
Hampus Jakobsson
So we want don't send us.
02:07:33:02 - 02:07:46:18
Hampus Jakobsson
When you have like one page of an idea and it's only you in a shared and you work at a core, but you're thinking about leaving because that's not us. Like you need to have gone further. But if it's you and a co-founder I like, and you have like a bit of a prototype even, or maybe like a first customer.
02:07:46:18 - 02:07:48:02
Hampus Jakobsson
Thought that's.
02:07:48:02 - 02:07:49:10
Hampus Jakobsson
Like the stage when we typically engage.
02:07:49:12 - 02:07:50:14
Hampus Jakobsson
So like you and.
02:07:50:14 - 02:07:53:13
Hampus Jakobsson
Someone else doing something and you're like on a direction that's.
02:07:53:13 - 02:07:55:15
Hampus Jakobsson
Great. So typically that and then.
02:07:55:15 - 02:08:15:07
Hampus Jakobsson
We like Europe the most, it's easier for us to do we do us, but we really, really prefer Europe. We have done so far we've done roughly ten investments in the UK, five in France, Benelux, five in Doc and five in the Nordics and then five in the US roughly. And we are always like wanted to be like the, the main investor the first semester.
02:08:15:09 - 02:08:31:21
Hampus Jakobsson
And the reason is that we see is a very common reason that startups fail, is that the investors are not super investors, that they don't take risk really well. And we want to have an alignment of that other investors in us. So like the most common reason that straps don't really succeed is that they don't reach that magical product market fit.
02:08:32:02 - 02:08:37:04
Hampus Jakobsson
What they build is, but the market runs at the price. The second one is that the stuff start founders start fighting.
02:08:37:04 - 02:08:38:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Which is huge that they.
02:08:38:03 - 02:08:54:17
Hampus Jakobsson
Actually because they don't actually get product market fit, because if they do, they're sailing on a ship at sea and they actually focus on survival and scaling and not so much about fighting. And they actually find love in that in the craft sometimes. And then number three is I in my book is like investors who are idiots. And the investors are like wasting founders time doing something.
02:08:54:17 - 02:09:14:05
Hampus Jakobsson
So for us, it's very important that we are that the main investor or invest with something that we truly agree with as people, and we feel like we have the same view on risk and on people, so that the other investor not trying to drive the founders to work like hundred hours a week, or that the other investor wants to sell as soon as there is value or something, so that we're both trying to win the Olympics in a sustainable way.
02:09:14:07 - 02:09:17:16
Hampus Jakobsson
So if you're that kind of founder, then we'd love to talk to you.
02:09:17:18 - 02:09:21:01
Christian Soschner
What's the best way to reach out to you?
02:09:21:03 - 02:09:25:01
Hampus Jakobsson
we have a forum online that people can just, like, fill in and, but you can also.
02:09:25:01 - 02:09:36:18
Hampus Jakobsson
Like it's very, very easy to see, who we know. Like, you know, if you look at LinkedIn or like, it's we're all over the place and on Twitter and other places like it's very, very easy to just ask somebody, can you please see if you can introduce me?
02:09:36:24 - 02:09:37:22
Hampus Jakobsson
If you do that, then.
02:09:37:22 - 02:09:44:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Ask the person just to send your material so we can just look at it and we promise to get it back. We respond every single person that that things up.
02:09:44:23 - 02:09:46:14
Hampus Jakobsson
With a reasonable idea.
02:09:46:20 - 02:09:49:23
Hampus Jakobsson
Like if somebody says they don't have a picture mobile that will take them to to.
02:09:49:23 - 02:09:50:21
Hampus Jakobsson
Noon, we.
02:09:50:21 - 02:10:02:03
Hampus Jakobsson
Sometimes don't respond because the we can end up in arguments about infinite amount of energy and stuff. So then we just don't respond. But if it is that they do that reuse socks factory in, in Vienna, that's going to take them to build.
02:10:02:05 - 02:10:02:12
Hampus Jakobsson
rocket.
02:10:02:12 - 02:10:08:22
Hampus Jakobsson
Ships. And they're two people and they have a sock recycling company there. They go to a startup prototype idea we will like we will definitely respond. We would
02:10:08:22 - 02:10:13:21
Hampus Jakobsson
probably say, before we continue, maybe you should outline something about how you get the rockets.
02:10:13:23 - 02:10:25:10
Christian Soschner
I was thank you very much for your time. I enjoyed listening to your stories and I wish you good luck with your investments, and I'm looking forward to see the next unicorns coming out of your fund.
02:10:25:12 - 02:10:26:04
Hampus Jakobsson
Thank you so much, Kristen.
02:10:26:07 - 02:10:35:05
Hampus Jakobsson
And it was great to talk to you. It was really good. And you asked ask questions all over the place, which were really great. And I think that I hope I was able to make it coherent. sometimes I felt like my mind was wandering.
02:10:35:07 - 02:10:39:07
Christian Soschner
I try to do conversation a lot. Thank you very much and have a great afternoon.
02:10:39:09 - 02:10:43:16
Hampus Jakobsson
Thank you. Bye.
02:10:43:16 - 02:10:49:05
Christian Soschner
What an incredible journey for the mind of a true contrarian investor.
02:10:49:05 - 02:11:01:19
Christian Soschner
Hampus Jakobsen has shown us that's the path to success. Isn't always linear, and sometimes the most brilliant ideas are hidden in the most unexpected places.
02:11:01:19 - 02:11:10:11
Christian Soschner
Remember the key takeaways from this episode? Welcome the unconventional. Trust your gut.
02:11:10:13 - 02:11:18:06
Christian Soschner
Build strong relationships with your founders and never give up on your vision.
02:11:18:06 - 02:11:41:19
Christian Soschner
If you found this conversation as inspiring as I did, please hit that like button. Share it with your fellow innovators and leave your thoughts and questions in the comments below. Your engagement fuels the growth of this show, allowing me to bring you even more insightful conversations with industry leaders.
02:11:41:21 - 02:12:13:16
Christian Soschner
And to all the entrepreneurs out there. Remember, the world needs your audacious ideas. Don't be afraid to challenge the status quo and chase those seemingly dumb ideas that have the potential to change the world. As Hampus reminds us. Luck favors the prepared. So prepare yourself. Stay curious and keep pushing the boundaries of what's possible. Thank you for tuning in.
02:12:13:16 - 02:12:16:21
Christian Soschner
And until next time, keep innovating.
