EP 146: Bio Europe - Will Europe’s Biotech Future Survive? Inside the Funding and Talent Exodus

Europe’s biotech sector is facing a crisis: despite its scientific achievements, it struggles with funding gaps and an exodus of top talent to the US. As biotech innovations drive global healthcare, Europe risks losing its edge—and the potential for groundbreaking medical advancements that affect us all. How can Europe regain its competitive advantage and transform scientific discoveries into real-world solutions?

In this special episode from BIO-Europe’s 30th anniversary in Stockholm, industry veterans Cormac Sheridan, Jonathan Smith, Christian Soschner, and Mike Ward reveal the path forward. They tackle the critical challenges in Europe’s biotech landscape, from funding shortfalls and talent loss to opportunities in AI and the promise of global partnerships. Discover the strategies that could redefine Europe’s role in biotech and keep innovation thriving on the continent.

🎙️ What’s Inside:

1️⃣ The Funding Dilemma: Why Europe’s investment landscape hinders biotech and how new models could change the game.
2️⃣ Talent Exodus: How the brain drain to the US is affecting Europe’s biotech ambitions and what it takes to retain top innovators.
3️⃣ AI in Biotech: Uncover the power of AI and digital tools in transforming drug development and patient care in Europe.
4️⃣ Global Collaboration Opportunities: Why Europe needs to shift its focus eastward and the potential of partnerships beyond US borders.

👤 Meet the Panelists:

• Cormac Sheridan: A seasoned biotech journalist, covering industry trends for over two decades, who reminds us that biotech’s success is rooted in resilience: “Fail faster, fail better.”
• Jonathan Smith: Biotech correspondent with insights into the complex regulatory and financial hurdles in Europe’s biotech ecosystem.
• Christian Soschner: CEO and biotech advisor, who shares powerful strategies on funding, partnerships, and global competitiveness.
• Mike Ward: Renowned analyst with a keen eye on market dynamics and investment trends shaping the future of biotech.
• Millie Nelson: Panel Host

  💡 QUOTES:

(05:18) "The future of biotech lies in integrating AI into medicine—beyond the hype." – Cormac Sheridan

(00:17:22) "Failure is embedded in biotech. It's a risk-based enterprise; success demands resilience." – Cormac Sheridan

(00:22:39) "and this brain drain when someone has a great idea that has..." - Christian Soschner

  ⏰ Timestamps: 

(00:00) Meet the panelists - industry experts with decades of biotech insight
(07:15) Innovative funding paths and geopolitical impacts in biotech
(06:30) Navigating Global Investment Challenges
(00:16:07) Europe's biotech strength - powerful innovation, but struggles with commercializing scientific breakthroughs
(00:22:39) Brain drain in Europe - how US incentives pull top talent across the Atlantic
(00:29:06) Neuroscience breakthroughs - positive signs for neurodegenerative disease treatments spark new interest
(00:34:08) Europe’s opportunity - global collaboration could drive biotech growth beyond US partnerships

Join us as these experts explore how Europe can leverage its scientific heritage to remain a global biotech leader. This conversation is packed with insights on the future of AI, international partnerships, and what it takes to keep innovation alive in Europe.

👀 Stay Tuned: Watch the full episode to see how Europe’s biotech ecosystem can thrive in the

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:22

Millie Nelson

And, what I am going to do is hand over to the amazing panelists to just give a quick introduction of themselves, and then I think we can get into, some of the key takeaways from the 30th year of fire up.

00:00:23:24 - 00:00:51:10

Cormac Sheridan

Hi, everybody. I'm, Cormac Sheridan from Ireland. Veteran biotechnology journalist for longer than I care to, recall, but, also, a veteran by Europe attender as well. I think my first one would have been maybe the late 90s and one, if I remember correctly. And, I'm also very much remembering 2016, which was also on, the morning after the night before the Trump was elected.

00:00:51:12 - 00:01:03:10

Cormac Sheridan

We have a similar one today. I don't know whether that's going to influence the discussion or not, but, I, I am a longtime observer of and write about biotechnology.

00:01:03:12 - 00:01:26:23

Jonathan Smith

And hi, everyone. My name is Jonathan Smith. John Smith is very generic name, so I swear it's my real name. And I actually came from a PhD in, neuroscience. And then I joined a industry publication called LA biotech. Back in 2017. And I then became a freelance journalist, in 2023. And so this is like my second or third bio Europe now.

00:01:26:24 - 00:01:46:14

Jonathan Smith

And so I haven't had quite your depth of, of time with this, event. But I, I like to think I'm coming with a fresh perspective at least. Right. And my main client is also emerging markets. So that's. I can make a focus. But, John, it's publication that's read by investors and investment banks and, corporate executives.

00:01:46:14 - 00:01:48:15

Jonathan Smith

Thank you.

00:01:48:17 - 00:02:13:22

Christian Soschner

Hello. I am Christine from Austria. I started in life science in 2006, have a business background and started with Novartis spin out, which was Nick Riva, the first company of Rutger Novak before I founded Crispr Terapeutico. And in the pandemic, I started a podcast because I thought, when we can't meet, probably it's helpful to enter the digital world with the farming industry, which nobody wanted to do before 2020.

00:02:13:24 - 00:02:24:19

Christian Soschner

And on my podcast, I love talking about how to develop biotech companies from the commercial point of view. But merger, acquisition, investing.

00:02:24:21 - 00:02:54:12

Mike Ward

I'm Mike Ward, I'm a veteran. I see a lot older than a veteran. I've been I've been right about the pharmaceutical industry by a farmer, biotech for 40 years. I've worked for almost every publication, that actually writes about biotech. So holding senior positions at Bio century, script, pink sheet, in vivo. I've also I now work for Clara Bates.

00:02:54:12 - 00:03:22:05

Mike Ward

I do, global thought leadership. That's where I try to start conversations, make people think about what's keeping the industry awake at night. I was there, in fact, probably at the conception of bio Europe, when corona was running around. So it when Carol was running around with, with her business plan. So I've been to, again, lots and lots of of of these events.

00:03:22:07 - 00:03:50:02

Millie Nelson

Great. Thank you so much. I thought it would be a good place to start. I know we're thinking about the key takeaways from by Europe, but maybe, if you could all provide just a quick snapshot of how you think the industry is in general, whether you're feeling positive about it, maybe there's some challenges you want to flag, and then we can go into a bit more of a discussion on how or whether, some of those thoughts have played out here in the conversations you've heard.

00:03:50:04 - 00:04:19:01

Cormac Sheridan

Well, if I was a vaccine maker, I wouldn't be very happy this morning. I think that the outlook in the US for vaccine makers will be very challenging if some of the the campaign promises around a role for Bobby Kennedy Jr. Playhouse. It could be a very exciting time, but that's an external, I mean, internally in the industry, it's been I mean, a fairly positive trajectory in terms of capabilities, in terms of analytical capabilities, in terms of drug development.

00:04:19:03 - 00:04:43:24

Cormac Sheridan

I was at a very innocent panel yesterday on AI and its role in, in drug development, which, was, I think, to be fair, it was a very good a couple of very good quality panels, drug development and diagnosis, kind of a hard headed assessment that tried to mythologize some of the and take away some of the hype and actually look properly at what I can and importantly, cannot do.

00:04:44:01 - 00:05:17:23

Cormac Sheridan

And there are still some challenges in that area. And certainly there is a wider sense that trust, especially in diagnostics, needs to be sort of one before it will become utterly mainstream. And also the necessity of integrating AI based tools into physician workflows was something that was raised. And these are the sort of the the practical considerations that accompany the development of any new technology, because obviously they are ultimately aimed at the practice of medicine, and that always has to be borne in mind.

00:05:18:00 - 00:05:58:22

Cormac Sheridan

But I mean, to me, it's kind of the industry has demonstrated obviously its huge capabilities and they are only increasing. And this convergence obviously between, computationally based analyzes, in, in the widest description and what's happening in terms of the biology, I think that, it does have a bright future. And I think, I suppose the insert, my obligatory Irish, writer is maybe, there's a talk about in AI that it'll help you to fail faster and fail better, which is exactly what Samuel Beckett said in, Westward Ho!

00:05:58:23 - 00:06:06:19

Cormac Sheridan

I have the quotation here. Yes, try. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.

00:06:06:21 - 00:06:29:08

Jonathan Smith

I got to say, my impression of the industry has been a little bit depressing. From my meetings with people at this meeting. It's. I've been talking to a few. So you spoke up public companies. They've just been saying to me, John, we've we've been struggling. You know, we've been struggling to get money. We need to get the data to then get people interested in our programs.

00:06:29:10 - 00:06:47:14

Jonathan Smith

But to get the data, they need the money and they need the partnering. But these investors and these partners want the data first. So these companies feel like they're stuck in a bit of a bit of a loop here that's they can't really get out of right now. And even now, I think we covered in a panel like in on Monday.

00:06:47:14 - 00:07:15:14

Jonathan Smith

That's even with the interest rates going down, dealmaking still not recovered yet. And so I mean, on the other hand, I am seeing kind of some interesting trends, though, that some companies are looking elsewhere for their, for their help. So I think one I talked to has merged with a company in South Korea, and from, from I've heard, markets in South Korea, for example, they're a bit more receptive right now to investments, especially in cell and gene therapy.

00:07:15:16 - 00:07:42:05

Jonathan Smith

Another company I talked to, vaccine company, they actually got $400 million from Barda, which was quite a significant investment for them. So it looks like people are getting quite innovative in how they are getting the money now. But on the other hand, I got to say as well, there are some geopolitical considerations. So the company I talked to from Israel told me that the situation there has actually really negatively impacted the business.

00:07:42:07 - 00:07:53:24

Jonathan Smith

So I'd say there's, you know, right now it's a lot of people struggling right now, but there's there's a lot of reasons to hope that they can also get the cash they need.

00:07:54:01 - 00:08:19:23

Christian Soschner

I think the pandemic had, a, a very unique coming from the investment side. The pandemic had really a very unique, dynamic in the industry, which seemed that money is abundant and basically anything get funded immediately. It just need an idea, needs to label its its vaccine or its Covid something. And people invest in that. And I think a lot of probably biotech entrepreneurs got just a little bit spoiled.

00:08:19:23 - 00:08:58:09

Christian Soschner

It was a unique moment in time and usually innovation is a struggle. I think this is something that will continue. What changed with the pandemic, luckily for everybody, is that the digital world was really integrated into investment, but which was not to place before 2020. When I look today at entrepreneurs, it's so easy to reach out to investors outside of Europe, to reach out to investors in the United States, in Dubai, in Saudi Arabia, in South Korea, in China, in Japan and before 2020, it's meant traveling down.

00:08:58:11 - 00:09:24:12

Christian Soschner

When I look at the performance of my podcast, the most downloads for a European format are in the United States. So and this is something that I think will accelerate the industry, that investors can easily collaborate with researchers here in Europe or in China using these new tools and moving to industry forward. But it won't take away the struggle.

00:09:24:14 - 00:09:53:23

Christian Soschner

It's innovation. And reaching out to investors always means that you need these 4 to 800 people in your pipeline to close the deal with three, four people. And this is one thing that I very often see that entrepreneurs completely underestimate. And they should come probably more often to events like Bio Europe to talk with investors and also get the sales perspective into their scientific mindset and move the companies forward faster.

00:09:54:00 - 00:10:19:15

Mike Ward

So it's a bit like Groundhog Day. So if we went back 30 years, you had a panel, you would hear everybody sort of saying money. It's really, really difficult. We can't get pharmaceutical, pharmaceutical partners to, to sort of engage with us. They want late stage assets, that we've got all this brilliant science, but we Europeans, we can't commercialize it.

00:10:19:17 - 00:11:04:09

Mike Ward

The Americans seem to always do it better. You come today and it's it's almost the same messages. The only difference is it's it's a different scale. So in, in 1994, the global biotech industry raised $2 billion. This year, it's already raised $73 billion. So this, you know, a huge, huge difference scale. The difference I think, now is that, instead of just worrying about, you know, sort of the science and the and the of the money, etc., there's now an issue around manufacturing.

00:11:04:11 - 00:11:49:12

Mike Ward

It's actually the ability to deliver. So we've got a lot of the science we over the 30 years, we've seen some, some, some great advances. We see all the technology. The challenge now is actually can we make this stuff, whether it's cell therapies, whether it's the GLP ones or whatever. So and the issue with, you know, and interestingly, I was at the European China by, by, by a forum on Monday and the elephant in the room was that nobody wanted to discuss the bio secure act and the potential implications that's going to have, because of course, yeah, something like 80%, 90% of all molecules start life in China.

00:11:49:14 - 00:12:13:21

Mike Ward

And, you know, if all of a sudden certain parts of the world do not want to actually have that, that's going to create a huge tension. The other thing that yeah, I've seen, though, instead of you talking about, where are we? Again, if you look at the, the sort of the science is being produced, you know, particularly in sort of the molecular biology fields.

00:12:13:23 - 00:12:39:06

Mike Ward

It's, it's on the increase. We've seen a lot, a lot of patent filing activity, etc.. But again, most of it, you know, now China is overtaken the US in terms of highly cited researchers. The you know, sort of, you know, the high sided papers are getting published, the, the patents that we filed. And these are in key areas like selling gene therapy, gene editing.

00:12:39:08 - 00:13:02:15

Mike Ward

So it's there is a big difference. I think we are at the, at the point and today with the with the election, it might even accelerate it where we are going to see a continental shift. And I think that this is where, you know, China is really, you know, beginning to make a mark.

00:13:02:17 - 00:13:28:09

Millie Nelson

And I thank you so much for your comments. Something I think all of you kind of mentioned it in slightly different ways, but, the idea of, you know, in Europe, we need more funding. People are going over to the US or trying to attract the US investors who maybe have more money. I think I was in a talk yesterday and they said the average funding round is double the size in the US than that in Europe.

00:13:28:11 - 00:13:52:04

Millie Nelson

And something that came up. I wouldn't say it shocked me, but it's just really interesting. Quite a few of the panelists are saying that maybe this is about European culture, and it's their approach to not want to take risks, or we're looking at things sometimes as what could go wrong. And they think some of the people from the US always look at it with how much money could we make?

00:13:52:04 - 00:13:59:15

Millie Nelson

This is great. Like if it fails, we'll move on to the next thing. I just wondered if anyone wanted to share an opinion on that.

00:13:59:17 - 00:14:22:00

Cormac Sheridan

I will, but I'll sort of do it with hesitation because I think that over the years, about a year of this kind of US European comparison or contrast was always made and it was the big story. But but we need to get over that because Europe has Europe. It has its own characteristics, its own dynamics. It does have less money.

00:14:22:02 - 00:14:44:14

Cormac Sheridan

It is a cheaper place to operate in than the US, at least most parts of Europe are. So your money will go maybe a little bit further. It has its own qualities and its own capabilities. And don't forget to I mean, my Kim self gave a lovely quick, trip through, European innovation and the history thereof, at that China, Europe.

00:14:44:16 - 00:15:09:22

Cormac Sheridan

Biotech, forum. And I actually when I was speaking with Rentschler here, yesterday, we were reminded that they were producing interferon in Lao Prime in Bad and Waterberg in 1974 when bo Europe wasn't yet born. And it was the year that Abbott burst on the international scene. So so there's a history here that's deeply rooted and European contributions to gene editing.

00:15:09:24 - 00:15:44:01

Cormac Sheridan

So the development of monoclonal antibodies, etc., etc., etc.. Europe has always been scientifically at the forefront of, of biological science. Maybe not quite as strong as the US, but it has deep and real strengths. Yes. It is not as good at translating scientific discovery into, commercial entities. It has those capabilities. They have improved. I mean, let's not forget that, there was no ban, there was no our genetics, say 20 years ago, or at least.

00:15:44:01 - 00:16:07:12

Cormac Sheridan

Yeah, there were probably getting going around then. But but these are now European powerhouses and they've shown it can be done here. And I'm sure that there are other companies out there who are hopefully the next gen lab or the next our genetics in the making. And what fascinates me in particular, is that they've gotten to the scale now where they are sort of largely in control of their own destiny.

00:16:07:14 - 00:16:34:04

Cormac Sheridan

They have, you know, very large and obviously BioNTech as well as to be mentioned in the in the same context, these are real European powerhouses. As companies as scientific discovery engines and also as, as clinical development entities that can take products the whole way. So, I wouldn't be too despondent. It's that old story about using your pool, remember?

00:16:34:04 - 00:16:57:01

Cormac Sheridan

You know, that great English stuff like, if you think is bad. Now, you really, have been around here and, and 20 years ago because it was a whole lot worse. So I think it's very important. I mean, what America has wondered for boundless reserves of optimism. And there is this sort of pessimism that can be a little bit pervasive here.

00:16:57:01 - 00:17:22:13

Cormac Sheridan

And people are still complaining about GPC, biotech and etc.. Platon and its doomed, clinical development trajectory going back 20 years ago. And they've forgotten in the meantime. Well, BioNTech has come up, you know, and remember that. Remember the successes don't just focus on the failures. Failure is embedded in biotech. It's a risk based enterprise. The failures have to happen.

00:17:22:15 - 00:17:26:21

Cormac Sheridan

You need to digest them, get over them and move on.

00:17:26:23 - 00:17:58:19

Mike Ward

Okay, I'm going to jump in. So, so, I think the you know, in many respects, you know, what you say is correct, but I think the there is a, a fundamental difference between the way that, us investors back US biotech companies and European investors back European biotech companies and is when they talk about risk capital, I sort of think you're not that risky in the States.

00:17:58:21 - 00:18:27:18

Mike Ward

What you will find is that the the investors will back teams or management teams. So therefore they will give them 100 million, 200 million, $1 billion. And the idea is, is that we want you to go and do the best you can with that. If it if this fails, stop doing it and do something better. So there are lots and lots of companies in the States.

00:18:27:18 - 00:18:50:11

Mike Ward

I mean, Amgen in its early days was a complete basket case. It was all over the place until it it then then then began to focus. So there's lots and lots of examples. Whereas here in Europe what they tend to do is they tend to back an idea. And if the idea fails, they walk away the and the and the plug is pulled.

00:18:50:13 - 00:19:24:01

Mike Ward

So you don't get almost like the, the recycling. This, this, this. Oh they failed. So, you know, things like your GPC biotech or British Biotech or whatever, because that was another, you know, something that really dampened investor enthusiasm for, for for biotech. Yet if you actually look at a lot of these companies, what some of the successful companies they actually recycled, they learned from, from, from, from from those experiences, they were able to, to, to to, to build better businesses.

00:19:24:01 - 00:19:42:13

Mike Ward

So I think that's, you know, one of the sort of the, the key difference is that in the States, they, they back and they nurture talent and they recognize that sometimes you fall over, but what you do is you pick yourself up and, and you get on.

00:19:42:15 - 00:20:04:18

Christian Soschner

I think it's obvious the easy way out to say, we have cultural differences. I totally agree to what you say that in the US, investors have much more money and they tend to pick teams. But when you think about Europe 30 years ago when Europe started, let's go back to the 90s. Innovation is European. We have great science.

00:20:04:20 - 00:20:51:06

Christian Soschner

Absolutely. For centuries and also great entrepreneurs. When you think back to the 90s, the entire mobile industry was basically European rollout. Europe was very strong. And the mobile industry before that, the German carmakers, the French carmakers dominated with innovation. The global markets. But something changed in the last 20 years in Europe, and I started in life science in 2006 and was, I was lucky to start with a Novartis Peanuts, with a huge series around the 40 million with the financial crisis, and moved more towards earlier stages and tried fundraising and with this background, with M&A, with public companies, I thought, I'm the dumbest kids on the playground because it was so hard to raise funds

00:20:51:06 - 00:21:17:01

Christian Soschner

in Europe. It was practically in 2008, nine, of course, practically impossible. But still afterwards, every time when I talked with the investors in the United States with entrepreneurs, they were talking about ten, €20 million rounds and in Europe we talked about 300,000 to 400,000 seed rounds. And this didn't change much in Europe. So I started to be a little bit investigating and thought, why is that?

00:21:17:01 - 00:21:41:12

Christian Soschner

Why is there such a huge difference? And the easy answer is always we have a different culture. We can't change that. But that's not true. When I look towards the United States that did very smart things 2 or 3 decades ago, they granted tax breaks. The trust gave investors an easy way and said, look, when you put your money into companies, you can deduct it from your taxes.

00:21:41:15 - 00:22:01:10

Christian Soschner

And this is how to start is to build empires. And we didn't have that in Europe. When I look to Austria, my country, science is very well funded. There is a lot of support for scientists, but not for commercial development. We don't do that. We don't give tax breaks to investors. We don't give tax breaks to business angels.

00:22:01:12 - 00:22:39:04

Christian Soschner

We just don't do that. We have, in this regards, a framework that hinders the translation of innovation in Europe to commercial entities. But this is very dangerous for Europe because what are entrepreneurs doing? They move simply to the United States. And we just see this brain drain when someone has a great idea that has commercial potential to go to Silicon Valley or to Boston, and if we want to change that, I think our politicians need to speed up a little bit and to change this framework and to make investing much more interesting for ordinary people.

00:22:39:06 - 00:23:08:20

Mike Ward

Yeah. Okay. So I can I just so retort to this. So but why does it matter actually where it is commercialized. Oh, you know, where it, where it is developed. Because at the end of the day, okay, the science is all about creating new medicines for patients, okay? And if the science is done here and then it's developed, don't forget the universities, they will get the royalties etcetera.

00:23:08:20 - 00:23:45:06

Mike Ward

So there are universities in Europe and research institutions that are doing very well. I don't think it really matters that pharma health care is is global. And what you do is you move to to where yeah, the opportunity is now we can sort of see, you know, what happened with China. Okay. Is one of the reasons why China was successful is that they've actually had what they call this of the total returning judges like that going back, because they want to do that now, you know, that could also happen in here.

00:23:45:06 - 00:24:08:08

Mike Ward

But in the States it's because it's much more of a nurturing environment. And it's not it's not about tax base, because once you've got loads of money, you don't need more loads of money. So I don't actually think that that is what is is necessarily motivating people. I think it's they want to get the science done and, you know, in the States there are those vehicles.

00:24:08:11 - 00:24:21:08

Mike Ward

We've never had public markets here. We've tried it and it's failed and it's failed. It's failed. So now nobody thinks about really floating in Europe unless unless they have to.

00:24:21:10 - 00:24:48:22

Jonathan Smith

I with a I like to illustrate a bit on how the risk risk appetite in Europe differs. Basically I talked to, one of the execs of a company who was involved in a company called myth, which my that company developed a treatment for hepatitis D and eventually got acquired by Gilead for magnitudes magnitudes more than the average return on investment.

00:24:48:24 - 00:25:11:01

Jonathan Smith

So the the person who told me after the deal got done, the VCs came up to him. I said, how do we not invest in this? And he said, well, it's because you didn't take a risk. And this treatment was not in the hepatitis B market, which is much larger, but it's still got it gave so much of a better return.

00:25:11:03 - 00:25:23:00

Jonathan Smith

And he just said that should be a lesson to VCs in Europe, basically to pay very close attention and to not miss out on these massive opportunities that are servicing within Europe.

00:25:23:02 - 00:25:52:10

Millie Nelson

Great. Thank you so much. Just to bring it back a bit to some of the key takeaways. I guess to simplify, it is clear there's still some challenges across the field, but also it seems like it's not all bad. We do have to focus that. There are definitely some positives. It's definitely not all negative. I was just wondering if you'd like to share if there's any conversations you've heard, over the last three days that have really excited you or really made you think like, this could be something in the future that's going to be pretty big.

00:25:52:12 - 00:26:09:06

Cormac Sheridan

I can talk about one conversation I had, and I'm a little wary about doing it because, it's really complicated. And, I haven't properly looked at. I haven't at all looked at the papers that are underlying this technology. But I would give a shout out to an Austrian company called Concho Therapeutics. That was a very, very impressed.

00:26:09:08 - 00:26:42:20

Cormac Sheridan

Just having a quick conversation with the CEO Michael Bauer. They have this extraordinarily interesting and innovative way of profile, the transcriptome of cells that is much more dynamic than RNA seq, for example. And, by incorporating some sort of, false you're reading, they can track transcriptional perturbations, say, that take place after the introduction of a drug or candidate drug or just even doing it.

00:26:42:20 - 00:27:13:14

Cormac Sheridan

It's during a screen, really. So you get this kind of extraordinary, interesting. Transcript. Transcriptional fingerprint, which he says is much more powerful, distinguishing between the primary effects of a particular compound and the secondary effects that RNA seq can fail to distinguish. And they have some very interesting ideas around addressing CMA, CMA, which is a huge, big target in cancer.

00:27:13:16 - 00:27:36:14

Cormac Sheridan

And he would claim that quite a few, suppose that CMA inhibitors are not CMA inhibitors. They're doing other things entirely. But the A systems by which they've been picked up and then evaluated just do not have that sensitivity. That's something I'm going to look at. I think in the future. I think that was, to me a very innovative approach.

00:27:36:14 - 00:27:58:12

Cormac Sheridan

And I would also say that what always impresses me as a journalist when you're talking to a company that you're new to, is that if you see that the establishing science or the enabling science, is has been published in a top tier journal that's been through expert peer review, which is beyond my capability, obviously as a journalist.

00:27:58:14 - 00:28:21:14

Cormac Sheridan

So that just gives it the kind of a hallmark of quality that this is good stuff, and it's a good starting point that, you know, that some really expert eyes have seen this stuff before. You have. And that gives you confidence that this is something that's of quality doesn't always mean it works. Obviously, as I've said before, failure is embedded in this industry.

00:28:21:16 - 00:28:26:23

Cormac Sheridan

But high quality science.

00:28:27:00 - 00:28:45:19

Cormac Sheridan

Is something that is discernible and there are hallmarks or if you like, almost kind of biomarkers, for, for scientific quality and this particular company, the scientific funders that I published in Nature Methods and in one of the science journals, I was very impressed by that. And that's something I'm going to look at further.

00:28:45:21 - 00:28:47:05

Millie Nelson

And thank you.

00:28:47:07 - 00:29:06:09

Jonathan Smith

I think for me, the most interesting thing I found from my talks with people was that, the CNS players that I spoke to have had what they call a very big surge in interest from Big pharma, people and investors right now. And I asked them why. And they, you know, they said it was a mixture of factors.

00:29:06:09 - 00:29:29:06

Jonathan Smith

So one of them is that, for example, neurodegenerative diseases such as outside disease are finally starting to see some actual positive signs and some actual approvals going on that's actually making people more interested. And it's basically less of a graveyard for drugs than it used to be. And also just that, this really big markets out there for these types of conditions.

00:29:29:08 - 00:29:44:21

Jonathan Smith

So basically they are seeing a lot more positive, positive interest positive. And I think it'll just be, you know, a big increase in interest that goes on. I mean, probably discussed in future events for sure.

00:29:44:23 - 00:30:07:18

Christian Soschner

I totally agree to what you say, Cormac. That fear is embedded in the industry. And, I think there is no innovation without, say, we have to accept that. That it is. If I read what I personally like, at Bio European, I think back to 2006, it was mostly about, science and small molecules and moving that forward, really focused on science.

00:30:07:18 - 00:30:28:01

Christian Soschner

Now we have much more development perspective and commercial perspective. Also here in Europe. I think this is taken up, and I personally enjoy the longevity field that, it's not so much anymore about thinking how we can, curate disease. It's much more going in a direction to think holistically. How can we help the patient? What do we need to do?

00:30:28:01 - 00:30:49:05

Christian Soschner

Additionally, how can we improve the life of the patient not only with a therapy, but also with changes in lifestyle, with, changes in the environment of the patient? And, it slowly trickles into the pharma industry. I had some talks with, people from the longevity field at the Bio Europe, and I can't remember, it's 10 or 15 years ago that this was even a topic.

00:30:49:11 - 00:30:59:15

Christian Soschner

And I think for the patient, it's a good thing to not only look at treating, diseases, but also helping them to change everything around it.

00:30:59:17 - 00:31:32:10

Mike Ward

So, to echo what Jonathan, was saying, so the neuroscience space. Yeah, yeah, I've also noticed that, you know, five, ten years ago, people weren't talking about it, whereas now people are, you know, openly excited about it. And obviously my age, I'm also excited about neurodegenerative, advances, as it will come on soon, maybe now, one of the interesting conversations I had was and it was sort of slightly given it, it was almost like, you know, well, okay, and where are we going?

00:31:32:10 - 00:32:03:23

Mike Ward

And it was, it was a, a, a bio data science company that had been having, partnership discuss with a PBM in the states. And the idea was, is that they want almost to get the, the source data to again understand your where the patients were, who the best patients would be to receive the drugs so that they could actually restructure their formulations.

00:32:03:23 - 00:32:28:00

Mike Ward

It's almost like, you know, cutting out, you know, some of the the stuff that you get, get, get from pharma. So I think that what we're what we're going to see, and we're beginning to, you know, some of the other discussions that, you know, people had with me about who else is coming into this sector. It's not going to be just the sort of the the same old, same old crowd.

00:32:28:02 - 00:32:48:06

Mike Ward

So I think that that's, you know, one of the things and the other thing is also just that the increase. So one of the things that the sort of the mood music in this place is what is different is there are fewer Americans here now that might be, certainly maybe as a, as a percentage of of, of, of the group.

00:32:48:09 - 00:33:16:01

Mike Ward

Now, that might be because of what was happening this week. And they would worried that they might not be able to get back in the country. Or, but also we've seen a big rise in the, the number of, you know, Chinese and Korean and they are you're very assertive in, in, you know, what they're proposing and what they're trying to do.

00:33:16:01 - 00:33:45:16

Mike Ward

So that's something that I see, you know, almost echoing what I said earlier is I think that we are seeing a continental shift and unfortunately coming back is that Europe kind of looks like it's in the same place. And you know, what my recommendation is, is that Europe needs to basically probably stop looking westward and start looking more eastward.

00:33:45:18 - 00:34:08:02

Millie Nelson

We're coming up to around, well, ten or so minutes left. So, I'll leave a couple minutes at the end if anybody does have any questions for the panelists or wants to share, maybe one of their key takeaways, from via Europe. But, you know, thinking of the future next year we're going to be in Vienna. A lot can happen in a year.

00:34:08:03 - 00:34:27:15

Millie Nelson

But I'm wondering if there's anything that you think is going to take, you know, center stage in terms of conversation or topic, and maybe if there's anything this year that you think's been a really big topic that might fade into the background, a little bit in 2025.

00:34:27:17 - 00:34:31:01

Cormac Sheridan

Oh my gosh, you're asking me to predict the future.

00:34:32:04 - 00:35:03:08

Cormac Sheridan

And I, I think that well, I think this is coming back to the Trump thing. I'm sorry to be obsessing about it, but I think that that's going to set a kind of a certain tone, because it's very obvious to me that, he, he and the culture of people around him are anti-science. And I think it's going to set a kind of a global tone because obviously his election has repercussions at a global level, and that's just going to change the nature of an awful lot of conversations.

00:35:03:08 - 00:35:28:13

Cormac Sheridan

And this goes well beyond the biotechnology industry. But I think, again, because of the role of Bobby Kennedy Jr in his, in his campaign, that could be a very serious external factor. I would imagine that there are FDA and NIH, senior officials who are freaking out. What the hell they're going to do this morning.

00:35:28:15 - 00:35:47:01

Cormac Sheridan

Life is going to be very tough for people involved in science in the USA. And obviously because the US is or has been the world's scientific leader. And as Mike points out, China is really coming to the fore extremely strongly. And it's well known that and I don't know much about China, I'll be very frank about that.

00:35:47:01 - 00:36:18:07

Cormac Sheridan

But, it is widely known, though, that the leadership in China really values science and is open to science and sees it's being central to the country's strategy across all sectors. And if you have, American, the USA, taking whatever bizarre path it's going to take now that's going to set a certain tone, and it may not be a direct answer to the question about, you know, is there going to be some day is it going to drop in, you know, next February or something?

00:36:18:09 - 00:36:42:10

Cormac Sheridan

But I think that's going to set a certain tone or a context in which a lot of things are going to happen. And I think say, for example, obviously biotechnology companies who are developing therapies for Alzheimer's for whatever various forms of cancer, etc., etc., etc., that will continue. It's welcomed. There is a patient pool for it, and it doesn't matter whether you're a Democrat or a Republican.

00:36:42:12 - 00:36:59:02

Cormac Sheridan

If you get it, you will want the best medicines available. So so there will always be space for that type of innovation. But I do worry about the sort of wider context, I think the tone is going to change quite dramatically.

00:36:59:04 - 00:37:22:05

Jonathan Smith

I think, what I've noticed this, this particular event, there was quite a lot of talk about real world data and the kind a few panels on Monday, and it's very sad. I wasn't up to chat with a few of the panelists afterwards. And they they said he's saying to me, well, you know, you could go and get a drug approved by the FDA based on the clinical trials, which is the, of course, the best way.

00:37:22:05 - 00:37:56:23

Jonathan Smith

But there's also another way to complement that is with real world data, because, of course, clinical trials, just, you know, not quite representing real life, as it were, which is why real world data could actually basically close the gap and demonstrate to payers, for example, the true value of a drug being used in the market. So they they basically told me that could be influencing quite strongly the value of a drug and how much payers actually can negotiate to price these drugs in terms of a topic that might not be discussed so much.

00:37:56:23 - 00:38:20:02

Jonathan Smith

Next, I might go out on a limb because someone told me he thinks, the whole topic of artificial intelligence in drug discovery is going to be either proven or not proven soon, because of course, the topic has generated lots of hype and there's not been that many, clinical results based on these AI design drugs, but that it will change or change maybe the next few years.

00:38:20:04 - 00:38:33:11

Jonathan Smith

And so it could be that if it doesn't get proven, that could actually, you know, not get discussed so much. I'm very fascinated to see what happens next with that.

00:38:33:13 - 00:39:00:00

Christian Soschner

I'm sorry. Make, very happy that we have to be in Vienna next year in Austria. I don't think Austria will change much. In Austria we have to say thank you. Thank you. Plants. Translation is Island of the breast. So we are structurally very stable, which is positive and negative. Europe. Vienna will be there in the same way it is, I think, since century.

00:39:00:02 - 00:39:29:11

Christian Soschner

I would like to double down on what Max said. I think the strength of Europe is. The core mission of the European Union was in this, to peacefully collaborate with other countries to avoid wars. And this can be a real strength for innovators in Europe in the last 20 years, the only place for funding, and I think it's an important factor in translating science into products was the United States also for Europeans.

00:39:29:13 - 00:40:05:16

Christian Soschner

Now we have Saudi Arabia, now we have Dubai, and now we have Southeast Asia and also China. And every European has the chance not only to talk with the US market, but also with the Middle East without any repercussions in Europe. And I think this can really be a strength for our scientists in developing the companies forward. So what will change in the future probably, is that Europeans not only look towards Nasdaq and Boston and San Francisco, but also towards Riyadh, towards Dubai, towards Shanghai, toward Singapore, more often.

00:40:05:18 - 00:40:28:04

Mike Ward

I think you're absolutely right. I think that, you know, when it comes to sort of the exchanges, you know, Shanghai, Hong Kong, I've actually been, you know, sort of very successful on the IPOs when we look at the sort of the IPO taking place in the US, I think some like 80% of them are underwater, whereas there is clearly the sort of an appetite and investor appetite.

00:40:28:04 - 00:41:05:14

Mike Ward

So I think that yes, you know what I mentioned earlier, you know, we should be looking elsewhere. If we think about what people are going to be talking about this time next year, I think I think Cormac is absolutely right in terms of we will be working out what the fallout is from, from, from this election, both in terms of what it actually means for, for the US environment, what it means for the sort of, you know, sort of drug reimbursement, etc., etc. but also, you know, the biosecurity, what's, you know, are we going to see even more sort of yeah.

00:41:05:14 - 00:41:32:20

Mike Ward

The barriers, being put up and the problem or what science where science is really successful is where you have multilateral international collaboration. And if all of a sudden you've got people sort of saying, oh, you cannot collaborate with certain people, that that that's going to be a problem. I think in terms of, sort of, you know, biotech and biopharma specifically.

00:41:32:22 - 00:41:58:21

Mike Ward

I think that what we have seen, Jonathan mentioned about the sort of the degeneration, drugs that have been approved, I think people will be looking at, actually. How are they playing out? Are they actually making a difference to, to patients? Also in the science field, I think people will be looking. Correct. Right. The, the new schizophrenia, molecule.

00:41:58:23 - 00:42:35:08

Mike Ward

How how is how is the rollout of that going to happen? Because, you know, that's only, you know, just going to be start. I mean, it's only just been approved. Also the gene editing products that we saw at the end, right, the tail end of, of, of of last year, the, the process takes so long that I think, you know, Crispr and vertex said that they've, they kind of enrolled 20 patients, but they actually have managed to get the, you know, manufacture the stuff back into the patients.

00:42:35:14 - 00:42:40:05

Cormac Sheridan

The reports are about 2 million actual revenue, which represents maybe 1 or 2 patients, I think. Yeah.

00:42:40:06 - 00:42:50:09

Mike Ward

So they they only get paid when they've done the deal. But I think the last time it was that I saw was that they hadn't got anything. But it will be interesting to see how that pans out.

00:42:50:10 - 00:43:06:03

Cormac Sheridan

It's not going to scale. I know that right now. It's just won't scale. Yeah. They I mean, I remember talking to some cables around the time of the approval and yeah, they were saying if they got 50 done in a year that'd be fantastic. Not not on their site in the whole of the USA. It's just you can't scale that.

00:43:06:04 - 00:43:12:24

Mike Ward

Well, but, but but the whole point is, if you can use gene editing for other conditions where it is scalable. And I think that.

00:43:13:01 - 00:43:31:15

Cormac Sheridan

In vivo gene editing will be amazing when it happens, it's going to take a long time. It's not going to happen next year. But in vivo gene editing and in vivo gene therapy will be an absolute. I hate that phrase, a killer app, but I think it's an it will be an extraordinary have extraordinary potential as a as a technology.

00:43:31:15 - 00:44:03:07

Cormac Sheridan

I think that's where it's going to be huge. And it may not be, say, targeted lipid nanoparticles. There were other delivery technologies being looked at based on, say, endogenous proteins that came from retroviruses that form a sort of VIP like structures, vaccine like particle structures as carriers of the payload or whatever, whatever. These are pre-clinical things, but say things and founder of Editas etc., etc. he's involved in this is there's people involved in in vivo delivery of genetic payloads.

00:44:03:09 - 00:44:12:00

Cormac Sheridan

And I think there's an enabling technology that is going to be so important. But, it's it's a play over a decade. It's not it's not next year.

00:44:12:05 - 00:44:32:03

Mike Ward

But I think the the problem is, is that, again, it might be one of these things where we've seen it with gene therapy, we saw it with ADCs, we saw it with Radio Pharmaceuticals, where or even monoclonal. At the start you have a kind of a stumble. Yeah. And and everything then goes quiet for ten years. And I think that we just have to have courage.

00:44:32:05 - 00:44:51:18

Mike Ward

I agree completely to go with that. And then, you know, I guess that the other thing is just GLP ones. Yeah. You know what? What actually is where are you going? Are they the magic bullet is actually going to like yeah. Save that. Save the world. And are we going to be able to actually make these things, especially if we can't use China?

00:44:51:19 - 00:45:23:12

Cormac Sheridan

Is there much talk about the fact I mean, I do see us, but about a big chunk of the the loss of fatty tissue is accompanied by the loss of muscle. That's a huge issue for older people especially. And I would be hugely concerned, about about that. And there could be in time pushback because if, if a person is is carrying and I know and this isn't I really support the considered use obviously of the grip on agonists for people who really need them.

00:45:23:12 - 00:45:32:11

Cormac Sheridan

And it's going to be a health care revolution if you just tackle obesity and all the consequences of obesity. That's brilliant. But people using it as a lifestyle drug, it's a real problem.

00:45:32:13 - 00:45:34:06

Mike Ward

I just want to jump in here. Sorry. Oh, let.

00:45:34:06 - 00:45:38:19

Millie Nelson

Me come as well, let's say. And then I'll open it to some questions and then we go.

00:45:38:22 - 00:46:08:23

Mike Ward

So so so so Thomas Thomas Land from Novo Nordisk actually said, okay, what they are looking for is, you know, how do they ensure that the, the weight loss actually is, is healthy weight loss and therefore is there something they can do. So they're looking for opportunities where not having you know, so like giving somebody else another drug so they feel like you can build muscle growth or whatever.

00:46:09:00 - 00:46:28:03

Mike Ward

But also again it comes to this almost like the where another different kind of group of people come in, the behavioral economists who basically sort of say, well, now you've lost this weight, will also now encourage you or we'll nudge you to actually build natural muscle mass, like getting you into the gym.

00:46:28:05 - 00:46:42:09

Millie Nelson

Right. Thank you. The, buzz is about to go, but, if anybody does have a question, please feel free to put your hand up now. And Lisa will come over with a microphone. If no.

00:46:42:11 - 00:46:44:23

Mike Ward

No, they probably heard enough from us.

00:46:45:00 - 00:47:08:18

Millie Nelson

No, I mean, it's been a great panel. I really want to say a huge thank you to all the panelists. Thank you to Michelle for putting this on. It's it's been great. And, I hope everybody's had a really great, event here about Europe. And looking forward to seeing you next year. Thank you.