EP 153 - Christopher Uhde: The Biotech IPO Boom is Over. Now What?

In 2021, biotech IPOs were soaring. Valuations hit record highs. Investors were throwing money at anything that moved.

Then… the market crashed. Funding dried up. Growth stalled. Biotech founders and investors were left scrambling.

So what really happened? And more importantly—how do you navigate what’s next?

📌 In this episode, Christopher Uhde—Senior Pharma & Biotech Equity Analyst at SEB—breaks down the brutal realities of biotech IPOs, investor sentiment, and the high-stakes game of survival in a post-boom world.

🎧 Watch now to learn:

1️⃣ Why valuations aren’t about science—but about demand.
2️⃣ The biggest mistake biotech founders make after going public.
3️⃣ How to raise capital before you actually need it.
4️⃣ The European biotech advantage—and how to leverage it.
5️⃣ How to attract the right investors and avoid the wrong ones.

👤 About Christopher Uhde:

Christopher Uhde is a Senior Pharma & Biotech Equity Analyst at SEB, one of Europe’s leading financial institutions. With a PhD in neurodevelopmental systems biology and postdoctoral research in drug discovery, he’s spent years studying the biotech market—from billion-dollar giants to early-stage startups—analyzing their success, failures, and what separates winners from the rest.

💡 Quotes to Challenge Your Thinking:
📌 (00:16:29) "Valuation isn’t about science; it’s about demand and the right investors."
📌 (00:49:17) "The power of the right team in biotech can’t be overstated."
📌 (01:13:08) "European startups struggle not from lack of innovation, but from a lack of ownership mindset."
📌 (01:38:39) "The long-term equity story isn’t just about share price—it’s about trust and vision."
📌 (01:50:44) "Biotech isn’t just about breakthrough science—it’s about strategy, trust, and long-term vision."

⏰ Timestamps:
(00:09:48) IPO Market Realities and Investor Sentiment
(00:17:59) Why European biotech should think beyond US listings
(00:25:15) The hidden challenges of taking a company public
(00:28:45) Preparing for IPO Compliance
(00:37:11) Public company leadership demands strategic communication
(00:49:17) The power of the right team in biotech
(00:52:48) Planning for success in biotech acquisitions
(01:13:08) Incentivizing Innovation in Europe
(01:23:33) Nordic IPO culture shaping biotech success
(01:36:16) Realistic Communication in Biotech
(01:50:44) Europe’s Biotech Global Edge

🔔 Help Us Grow

If this episode gave you insight, inspiration, or a new perspective—here’s how you can help:

📢 Hit SUBSCRIBE, like, and leave a comment. It’s a small action, but it makes a huge difference. Every engagement helps us bring in more top-tier guests, deeper insights, and the conversations that keep you ahead.

Right now, we’re in the global top 10%—let’s push for the top 1% together.

🎧 Watch now and make sure your biotech strategy is built to last. 🚀

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:35:17

Christian Soschner

An IPO isn't just an exit. It's a leap toward long term growth. But what happens when the market turns and that dream valuation disappears overnight? In 2022, born biotech IPOs soared. Valuations hit record highs. Investors poured in. Then suddenly the market crashed into the excitement. It was gone. Founders were left asking what now?

00:00:35:21 - 00:00:40:12

Christopher Uhde

it's a tale of, of two companies, the haves and the have nots. So you can already see

00:00:40:20 - 00:01:09:00

Christian Soschner

Europe's biotech sector is at the crossroads. The innovation is there. The science is strong. But capital IPO strategies and investor confidence. That's an entirely different story. Today's guest, Christopher Alder, breaks down the reality of biotech finance and what it really takes to succeed in an unpredictable market.

00:01:09:03 - 00:01:11:03

Christopher Uhde

I think some things are in your control.

00:01:11:03 - 00:01:15:05

Christopher Uhde

Right. And others absolutely aren't. No one could

00:01:15:06 - 00:01:48:11

Christian Soschner

is Christopher Alder? He's a senior pharma and biotech equity analyst at SAP, one of Europe's leading financial institutions. He has spent years studying the biotech market, analyzing companies from AstraZeneca to microchips. Before that, a PhD in neurodevelopmental systems biology. Postdoctoral research in drug discovery. If anyone understands biotech investment, it's him.

00:01:48:15 - 00:01:54:21

Christopher Uhde

But the long term equity story is not simply we want a higher share price, it's that we want people to understand

00:01:54:24 - 00:02:22:08

Christian Soschner

But before we dive into this episode, if you haven't subscribed yet, please take a second to do that now. It helps the show grow, reach more incredible guests, and bring you the best insights in deep tech, tech, entrepreneurship, and investing. It's free, takes two seconds and makes a huge difference. Thank you a lot.

00:02:22:10 - 00:02:36:20

Christian Soschner

So if you want to survive in biotech, it's not just about great science, it's about communicating it right. Planning for market shifts and securing the right investors before you need them.

00:02:36:20 - 00:02:50:00

Christian Soschner

This episode is for biotech leaders, investors, and entrepreneurs who want to navigate uncertainty. Plan smarter and build companies that last. Let's dive in. Start listening now.

00:02:50:00 - 00:02:51:14

Christian Soschner

Christopher, let's get.

00:02:51:14 - 00:02:54:20

Christian Soschner

Into the live stream and let's get into the topic.

00:02:55:22 - 00:02:56:23

Christian Soschner

The last two years for.

00:02:56:23 - 00:02:59:05

Christian Soschner

Pharma was anything.

00:02:59:05 - 00:03:02:09

Christian Soschner

But fun. It was more fun before 2022.

00:03:02:11 - 00:03:02:15

Christopher Uhde

Yeah.

00:03:02:15 - 00:03:05:03

Christian Soschner

And, I was we were both.

00:03:05:03 - 00:03:07:00

Christian Soschner

With bio Europe and, this is where we.

00:03:07:00 - 00:03:08:11

Christian Soschner

Met, and, I.

00:03:08:11 - 00:03:12:11

Christian Soschner

Think the, the general.

00:03:12:13 - 00:03:20:01

Christian Soschner

Edit hosted by a group was a little bit depressing. And so let's give it a little bit of a different,

00:03:20:03 - 00:03:27:20

Christian Soschner

Let's say spin this time. And let me ask you, in 2024 and 2025, is we looking ahead?

00:03:27:20 - 00:03:30:19

Christian Soschner

What excites you about the biopharma.

00:03:30:19 - 00:03:32:02

Christian Soschner

Space in Europe?

00:03:32:04 - 00:03:32:12

Christopher Uhde

Yeah.

00:03:32:12 - 00:03:44:10

Christopher Uhde

You know, I think, you know, Europe punches above its weight in, in terms of structural sort of, inefficiencies that have held the biopharma sector back,

00:03:44:10 - 00:03:52:13

Christopher Uhde

you know, as I heard you and, and, the panel you're on discuss that at bio. You're but I think the optimistic flip side of that is that it's much

00:03:52:13 - 00:03:56:14

Christopher Uhde

easier to grow quickly from a smaller base.

00:03:56:16 - 00:03:58:23

Christopher Uhde

But, I mean, you know, looking through that sort of, you know,

00:03:58:23 - 00:04:18:12

Christopher Uhde

tongue in cheek, remark, in our view, when you look at Europe's track record of success stories of the past ten years, the pieces are demonstrably in place to be able to replicate some of the the successes that have have happened. Firstly, so we've had, you know, Gen Mab are Gen X and Zeeland that are probably the most talked about at the moment.

00:04:18:14 - 00:04:43:22

Christopher Uhde

But quality Test deserves mention and AB links was, was of course a bit further back, but definitely another, than maybe somewhat more equivocal successes have been, by Arctic Morpheus and Wilson. You know, we've got reformulation players like Ascendis and cameras, that are doing very well. And then we've got, of course, more mature companies that found another gear like, UCB and and Aurion.

00:04:43:24 - 00:05:08:01

Christopher Uhde

While I think Spec Pharma's like, so BK Admiral and Record Data have done a really good job of at essentially the roll up story. And of course, you know, I haven't even mentioned any UK names. I think the, the successful teams behind some of them have now largely moved on to New ventures. So, so reentering circulation, so to speak.

00:05:08:03 - 00:05:35:12

Christopher Uhde

Secondly, I think, you know, relatively limited, reforms, actually either at the national or EU level could actually now have a major impact on the investment climate for biotech in Europe. And let's say within that, I'm optimistic that my home in the Nordics can play an important role in propelling that, forward. So I'd say we we think that the sector is poised to jump.

00:05:35:14 - 00:05:58:14

Christopher Uhde

And I think thirdly, than we've seen, improving conditions in Europe and the sector more broadly gather pace through 2024. You know, you asked, you know, how those how are things looking ahead? Not just back. I mean, your listeners know as well as it's. Yeah, it's been a, an unprecedentedly long winter, for the sector and, you know, now that we started to emerge from that.

00:05:58:14 - 00:06:03:08

Christopher Uhde

But it's, it's a tale of, of two companies, the haves and the have nots. So you can already

00:06:03:08 - 00:06:18:23

Christopher Uhde

see it right in 2022, share performances every time. News around the rate path came. Right. Companies with good funding or a product that was already on the market, or at least adequate, adequately funded, they tended to jump pretty sharply on positive news.

00:06:19:00 - 00:06:44:16

Christopher Uhde

You know, that the rate cuts might start soon. Whereas I think the rest tended not to move very much. Now we see IPOs have started to come back in the US. There's been an increasing number of, of, of, successful placements in Europe. European VC has actually been exceeding that in the US in terms of raising capital.

00:06:44:18 - 00:07:21:03

Christopher Uhde

And actually at the same time as it's basically completely disappeared in China. And actually, you know, we're seeing, later stage private rounds, starting to take off as well, actually just, you know, a few months ago, for example, ACB, which is my employer, helped raise €50 million at a €500 million valuation in a private placement for, smart seller that's an unlisted Swedish platform company with, now they have a technology for vascular delivery and a couple of stem cell based regenerative medicines, for for heart failure and Parkinson's.

00:07:21:05 - 00:07:37:13

Christopher Uhde

And so I mean, things like that, where you're starting to see I mean, that's a, that's a pretty good valuation for a company in Europe. That's, that's, actually still pre-clinical. So yeah, I think, there's, there's definitely reasons to be optimistic.

00:07:37:18 - 00:07:41:17

Christian Soschner

So if you have a half unicorn.

00:07:41:19 - 00:07:42:18

Christopher Uhde

Likely. Yeah.

00:07:42:20 - 00:07:44:04

Christian Soschner

It's still some room to grow.

00:07:44:08 - 00:07:46:16

Christopher Uhde

Yeah.

00:07:46:18 - 00:07:47:15

Christian Soschner

But what challenges?

00:07:47:15 - 00:07:55:24

Christian Soschner

You said you mentioned the IPO market in, in the US, in Europe and in China. What challenges do your currently see for IPOs in our sector.

00:07:56:01 - 00:07:57:05

Christopher Uhde

Look I mean they

00:07:57:05 - 00:08:09:08

Christopher Uhde

anytime you come out of you know it's there's a massive hangover right from from the party. And in 20 2021 started 21 and and anytime

00:08:09:08 - 00:08:20:19

Christopher Uhde

that happens, people are going to be cautious about getting back. And and so it's they're going to be cautious by being more risk averse. And that's, nothing new.

00:08:20:21 - 00:08:38:24

Christopher Uhde

So I think it's, it's the challenge will be to, level up in terms of making sure you have a solid story as possible if you're a company and, you know, get, as good a, you know. Yeah, a team together as you can.

00:08:39:02 - 00:08:44:15

Christian Soschner

Let's sidestep a little bit in the conversation. Let's talk a little bit about human nature. You are an investment banker and.

00:08:45:13 - 00:08:47:00

Christian Soschner

Deal a lot with people.

00:08:47:02 - 00:08:48:18

Christian Soschner

And there is this, this.

00:08:48:20 - 00:08:53:24

Christian Soschner

This tendency that you described, which I don't fully understand. We had really.

00:08:54:01 - 00:08:54:17

Christian Soschner

A sudden.

00:08:54:17 - 00:09:13:01

Christian Soschner

Unexpected, I would say glorious time of biopharma globally from 2020 to 2022, where companies made a ton of money. And when you look at biotech, I mean, I think that they got $20 billion or euros. It's pretty much the same today.

00:09:13:03 - 00:09:13:12

Christian Soschner

On.

00:09:13:12 - 00:09:31:13

Christian Soschner

Their bank account. I mean, fans before 2020 were happy when they raised hundred million to invest in biopharma. BioNTech has 20 billion. Moderna. The same story. Pfizer, same story. There were a lot of smaller companies that, made a lot of revenues in this time and had a lot of cash.

00:09:31:18 - 00:09:34:16

Christian Soschner

And then suddenly in 2022, the.

00:09:34:16 - 00:09:38:02

Christian Soschner

Attitude seemed to shift from euphoria.

00:09:38:04 - 00:09:49:03

Christian Soschner

Within a couple of weeks, totally to depression. And I really don't understand that. How can that happen? I mean, you have money on the bank accounts. You can invest. You can potentially.

00:09:49:03 - 00:10:01:19

Christian Soschner

By other companies. You can buy new compounds, you can negotiate with universities and license something in with the amount of capital on their bank account. But suddenly people said, nope, we stop investing. We don't do anything. We don't.

00:10:01:19 - 00:10:05:02

Christian Soschner

Move. Who knows what comes to you, understand what drives.

00:10:05:02 - 00:10:11:06

Christian Soschner

Human nature in the investment space so that people can, decision makers can shift from, euphoria.

00:10:11:12 - 00:10:11:23

Christian Soschner

To.

00:10:11:23 - 00:10:15:05

Christian Soschner

Completely being cautious from one day to the other.

00:10:15:11 - 00:10:44:00

Christopher Uhde

Well, I mean, I'm not I'm not a macro economist, but, you know, obviously you have you have a huge amount of flows. You have patterns that have happened historically. Right? And people know they're going to happen. And people could see for years. I mean, since I almost since I joined, it was, SAB probably not as much of my prior employer, but, but almost since I joined CB, people, I think everywhere I realized

00:10:44:00 - 00:10:49:22

Christopher Uhde

we were in a, in a bubble that, you know, some, some people already knew back, you know,

00:10:49:22 - 00:10:52:05

Christopher Uhde

a couple of years before that.

00:10:52:07 - 00:11:15:10

Christopher Uhde

And, and so the anticipation is there. Right? They know that things are going crazy. Everyone was talking about how. Yeah, I mean, it's it's insane right now. But but, but that was the only way to make money, so they still kept at it. Right. And, and so I think you had a huge number of people who knew that the end of the party was, was coming.

00:11:15:12 - 00:11:27:10

Christopher Uhde

But they we it's costly to be the first one to, to, call time. And, so then, you know, once, once it does happen, first of all, you get all the mega flows right

00:11:27:10 - 00:11:31:05

Christopher Uhde

from, macro funds,

00:11:31:05 - 00:11:42:16

Christopher Uhde

going out of equities and, into other areas and then within equities getting out of the sort of higher risk growth areas into the more, safe areas.

00:11:42:16 - 00:11:56:13

Christopher Uhde

So it's, yeah, it's, I don't know if it's exactly rocket science. It's kind of along the same lines in a way, but, yeah, it's it's, also very well, well known. So.

00:11:57:02 - 00:11:57:11

Christian Soschner

Yeah, we have.

00:11:57:11 - 00:12:01:22

Christian Soschner

To live with it, but I think the path is not over yet. When you look at the stock markets today.

00:12:01:24 - 00:12:03:01

Christian Soschner

Except pharma.

00:12:03:02 - 00:12:13:00

Christian Soschner

There is still some room to grow, but, Nvidia, MicroStrategy, for example, Bitcoin as of OPEC. All the, the hype in the artificial intelligence sector.

00:12:13:07 - 00:12:18:19

Christian Soschner

Alphabet announced positive news in quantum computing and the stock market is just soaring.

00:12:18:21 - 00:12:19:14

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. No,

00:12:19:14 - 00:12:25:22

Christopher Uhde

it's true. And I mean, of course, you know, we've had our, areas like that too, right? Obesity space for sure.

00:12:25:24 - 00:12:26:08

Christian Soschner

Yeah.

00:12:26:08 - 00:12:33:17

Christopher Uhde

That's true. Has definitely been, a very much a momentum area that maybe is taking a bit of a breather right now.

00:12:33:19 - 00:12:35:21

Christian Soschner

How how do you see the obesity space.

00:12:35:23 - 00:12:38:07

Christian Soschner

From your, from your investment perspective?

00:12:38:07 - 00:12:54:01

Christopher Uhde

Oh, well, you know, if there is, there's, a lot going on. I have to be careful how much I say because of what? You know, we're not allowed to make recommendations. Public fora, but, there's.

00:12:54:01 - 00:13:07:16

Christopher Uhde

I think there's still a lot of exciting stuff going on. That's new. So from, an early stage investor perspective, there's more to do, but I think it's getting obviously more crowded and more challenging.

00:13:07:18 - 00:13:26:13

Christopher Uhde

And so, you're going to have to, I think, you know, buying into an obesity ETF is, is, 111 strategy to get exposure. But there's also an argument to be made for, being more

00:13:26:13 - 00:13:31:00

Christopher Uhde

discriminating. Let's, let's leave it at that.

00:13:31:02 - 00:13:31:07

Christian Soschner

Yeah.

00:13:31:08 - 00:13:48:22

Christian Soschner

I'm not so unhappy about the, the, the Nordic companies operating in this space. So it's a good testament. Again, like BioNTech, for the European market, there is a lot of, talent, a lot of science and a lot of rocket science, I think, on the European market that it's yet to be uncovered.

00:13:48:22 - 00:13:51:10

Christian Soschner

And, one point.

00:13:51:10 - 00:13:58:19

Christian Soschner

That frequently pops up when people start building companies is, the exit and the IPO. So my question to.

00:13:58:19 - 00:13:59:19

Christian Soschner

You, what.

00:13:59:19 - 00:14:03:08

Christian Soschner

Are the biggest misconceptions about IPOs in biotech.

00:14:03:10 - 00:14:04:09

Christian Soschner

That,

00:14:04:11 - 00:14:06:15

Christian Soschner

You have experienced as an investment banker?

00:14:06:17 - 00:14:07:03

Christopher Uhde

Yeah,

00:14:07:03 - 00:14:30:19

Christopher Uhde

yeah. No, that's a it's a good question. I think valuation is is typically the result of demand rather than science would be the first one that pops to mind. Yeah. I think that's it's not necessarily something that everyone kind of, realizes, at the end of the day. But yeah, you can see it very clearly in the stock market, right.

00:14:30:19 - 00:15:01:14

Christopher Uhde

That you look at all these companies that in the past two years had good results, but the share prices even fell, let alone stayed flat. Right. It was quite unusual in the grand scheme of things, that you would see a share price rise on positive news. That's of course, I think changing now, where we, you know, biohaven was it yesterday, for example, had some positive data that led to a positive share price reaction.

00:15:01:14 - 00:15:39:14

Christopher Uhde

So that was nice to see. Yeah. So I think that's one thing. Then I think, actually, what you know, from, from our experience, I would say the investor base is more important than the valuation, at the IPO itself. So, so getting in a good base of investors that will continue to, be supportive, and attract other investors is, is, you know, more important that the IPO itself, valuation, a few years down the line is then more crucial.

00:15:39:16 - 00:16:04:19

Christopher Uhde

So that's another one. And then I think the third one that I mentioned would be that, you know, as far as European biotech is concerned, the US market might be bigger. Sometimes the price is higher, but I think the long term support is is certainly more, more fleeting. And you definitely are exposed to a lot more short sellers, in the US.

00:16:04:21 - 00:16:07:03

Christopher Uhde

So that's it's a double edged sword, I would say.

00:16:08:19 - 00:16:31:10

Christian Soschner

Lucky for us that, most biotech entrepreneurs don't know what short sellers are. Before we switch to the IPO. I'm a strong advocate, to be honest. For listing on, the US market. So when companies approach me and say question, what should we do? We started a company and, now we have VC support. They need one or the other exit either to sell to the industry or other to an IPO.

00:16:31:12 - 00:16:54:10

Christian Soschner

And my point always is, list on the US market, you have a lot more investors there. You get higher valuations, which is very nice competitor European market. And you have all the talent and the big pharma companies there who can take your innovation to the US market, and then you can come back to Europe to a second listing and, conquer the European market.

00:16:54:12 - 00:17:07:07

Christian Soschner

Now my question to you is please talk me out of investing in the US. We are in Europe and I should advocate for, the European markets. I'm missing the arguments here, so give me some.

00:17:07:09 - 00:17:09:24

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. So I mean, I

00:17:09:24 - 00:17:13:18

Christopher Uhde

think,

00:17:13:20 - 00:17:44:24

Christopher Uhde

Look, if we talk about Europe, what are its strengths for sure, the innovation in or the science coming out of Europe, I should say, is, world class. It's as as as good as you have in the US or anywhere else. And I think, you know, there you're going to get probably, a higher rate of companies with, you know, a singer, single asset, you know, single assets that do, you know, I mean, as, as as well probably as, as they do in the States.

00:17:45:01 - 00:18:26:09

Christopher Uhde

It's a different kind of scale that you have over there. Right? So, it's not that it can't be done, it's just that, it's more that it's, a different type of, of mindset in general that kind of fuels things to be bigger. And, and, maybe more, more ambitious. I think so. So for a start, I'd say if it's if it's a one product company, it's probably not necessarily better than to be in the US and I have seen specific examples, where it is definitely not, made a difference to be in to valuation to be in the US in helped raise capital perhaps.

00:18:26:11 - 00:18:58:09

Christopher Uhde

Not sure that it couldn't have been raised in, European markets. But but anyway, so I think it depends. And then I think, you know, so, so we definitely have, institutional investors here who, want exposure to the sector. And they want it on European markets. So there is a place for, companies, without a doubt, in, in Europe.

00:18:58:11 - 00:19:19:14

Christopher Uhde

And I think that, of course, is, much higher than average, probably in the Nordics where I'm based. But I think those are probably some of the, you know, highlights, let's say of, of, yeah, fundamentally wise. Also worth considering just looking in Europe under the right circumstances.

00:19:19:22 - 00:19:29:03

Christian Soschner

Good points. I think tenants are we have a lot of talent here in Europe and also a lot of great entrepreneurs, operating in that space and a lot of great investors.

00:19:29:04 - 00:19:29:12

Christian Soschner

Let's.

00:19:29:13 - 00:19:40:04

Christian Soschner

Address this part of the conversation to people starting in biotech and getting exposed for the first time to terms like IPO and short sellers and stocks a little bit into these terms.

00:19:40:06 - 00:19:40:14

Christian Soschner

How would.

00:19:40:14 - 00:19:41:17

Christian Soschner

You explain an IPO.

00:19:41:17 - 00:19:42:16

Christian Soschner

To a.

00:19:42:16 - 00:19:47:06

Christian Soschner

Totally new scientific entrepreneur to understand the science, not have.

00:19:48:05 - 00:19:56:02

Christian Soschner

Pushed by the risks to build a company and to say, you know, you to an IPO or an M&A, can you explain what an IPO is, please?

00:19:56:04 - 00:19:56:11

Christopher Uhde

Yeah.

00:19:56:11 - 00:20:20:18

Christopher Uhde

Okay. So an IPO is is just a way to raise capital and provide liquidity. That's, that's the idea. And also it's sometimes an exit for VCs, less so today probably than than perhaps a decade or more ago. Now, I guess it's more of a path towards an exit by increasing the valuation, for biotech companies in particular.

00:20:20:20 - 00:20:46:16

Christopher Uhde

But really, I think it applies to any company where the vast majority of its earnings growth potential is ahead of it. An IPO tends to be a significant value inflection because the share can be marketed toward a wider array of investors. So that then you get the collective price finding mechanism that tends to be more efficient than for for a private companies.

00:20:46:18 - 00:21:04:16

Christopher Uhde

So I think that's, that's the basic, idea. Then then of course, there's a whole regulatory, aspect that goes into what it means to be listed on a stock exchange. But yeah, those are sort of more boring details, I suppose.

00:21:06:18 - 00:21:24:23

Christian Soschner

When I expand. So the early stage is quite funny, because people often start fundraising when they're running out of, of capital. And when it expands, that folds towards, later stages or the IPO market, which my words are usually for later stage companies. But maybe I'm wrong today is correct. Me.

00:21:25:00 - 00:21:26:03

Christian Soschner

How does the process.

00:21:26:03 - 00:21:32:10

Christian Soschner

Look like for an IPO? I mean, just imagine that a company might come to you and say, look, we would like to do an IPO.

00:21:32:12 - 00:21:35:02

Christian Soschner

Exit our VCs. We have a.

00:21:35:02 - 00:21:37:06

Christian Soschner

Cash runway of three weeks.

00:21:37:08 - 00:21:37:15

Christian Soschner

Can.

00:21:37:15 - 00:21:41:10

Christian Soschner

You please make it happen that we can have the meeting on the bank account?

00:21:41:12 - 00:21:42:12

Christian Soschner

How how does the.

00:21:42:12 - 00:21:44:14

Christian Soschner

Process look like?

00:21:44:16 - 00:21:45:01

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. If

00:21:45:01 - 00:22:06:07

Christopher Uhde

you came to me and said, we really need this, this in three weeks, I would say. All right. So, you're going to have to work really fast, and you're going to have to take a step here in the middle. Otherwise it's not going to happen. Right? I think, you know, if we take a step back and say, so, what are the basic categories of activities that have to happen here?

00:22:06:07 - 00:22:33:15

Christopher Uhde

So you have internal preparations, you know, ensuring sort of Nasdaq compliance is, is basically the, the bulk of that, external preparations. So preparing a prospectus, analyst presentation to pitch to, to sell side analysts at the banks, and marketing pages and so on. And then, of course, the third is execution, which is, you know, all the investor meetings that you have to get done.

00:22:33:17 - 00:22:56:02

Christopher Uhde

So I mean, the in the internal preparation is what really decides the speed of the process. Steps two and three can really be done in 3 to 6 months time. But that's 3 to 6 months, not weeks. So, so you need to come, and find, some sort of bridge funding, financing, to be able to get you there.

00:22:56:02 - 00:22:56:20

Christopher Uhde

Then.

00:22:57:12 - 00:22:59:10

Christian Soschner

So the. If you understood. You're right.

00:22:59:12 - 00:23:00:22

Christian Soschner

The technical.

00:23:00:22 - 00:23:03:06

Christian Soschner

Process takes 3 to 6 months.

00:23:03:08 - 00:23:06:16

Christian Soschner

When everything is prepared. What does.

00:23:06:16 - 00:23:14:08

Christian Soschner

The company need to prepare internally before even go to you? How should the organization look like?

00:23:14:10 - 00:23:14:20

Christopher Uhde

Yeah.

00:23:14:20 - 00:23:31:19

Christopher Uhde

I mean, I think, some of the big, the big sort of organizational shifts actually tend to be around, culture of communication and processes, around that. You have to consider much more carefully who needs to know what.

00:23:31:19 - 00:23:34:03

Christopher Uhde

And I think then the other thing, of course, is, is things

00:23:34:03 - 00:23:47:10

Christopher Uhde

like, you know, that you're you're going to have to get an audit, and make sure that your, your, your financials are, are, IFRS or GAAP compliant.

00:23:47:10 - 00:24:04:02

Christopher Uhde

And, and so on. So it's, it's I think mainly things like that. And I think then. Yeah, for more details, you'd have to go to the corporate finance team and ask them. Yeah. But those are the kinds of, basic processes.

00:24:04:05 - 00:24:12:00

Christian Soschner

So it means it needs a lot of preparation work internally to prepare the executive, since the other board members, to proper communication style.

00:24:12:02 - 00:24:13:09

Christian Soschner

To also.

00:24:13:09 - 00:24:15:14

Christian Soschner

Train them into quarterly reporting.

00:24:15:17 - 00:24:45:01

Christopher Uhde

Yeah, exactly. And not just them, but, I mean, anyone who might interact with the market and and then and then, of course, to make sure that they keep sensitive information, you know, market moving information to insiders only. Right. So who who within the team needs to know that, for example, if a trial readout is, positive or negative, who needs to know that before it's announced publicly?

00:24:45:03 - 00:24:59:14

Christopher Uhde

If they don't need to know, they should definitely not know. And if they aren't made to know somehow, then they need to be listed as an insider in an official logbook. So, so that's,

00:24:59:14 - 00:25:05:06

Christopher Uhde

really important because the worst thing that can happen is, you know, you get

00:25:05:06 - 00:25:15:08

Christopher Uhde

an investigation by, the finance inspection, as, is what we call it in Sweden, for, for, yeah.

00:25:15:10 - 00:25:19:23

Christopher Uhde

The insider, information, dealing. Yeah.

00:25:20:01 - 00:25:26:24

Christian Soschner

Let's have a critical few that I mean, I'm in Vienna and, so I can joke around, some topics.

00:25:27:08 - 00:25:31:09

Christian Soschner

20, 20 years ago when I worked in public companies in acquisition.

00:25:31:23 - 00:25:41:09

Christian Soschner

I mean, the internet was nowhere like it is today. Social media didn't even exist back then. I mean, people used to ask if Facebook was new in 2004.

00:25:41:11 - 00:25:43:07

Christian Soschner

And.

00:25:43:09 - 00:25:48:10

Christian Soschner

This instead, a warning. Yeah, you got it. But what can you do with it? I mean, you can talk with your partner at home.

00:25:49:03 - 00:26:10:24

Christian Soschner

I live in Vienna, so probably nobody cared about anyways, about the stock markets. Not many people invested. You can go to a pub around the corner and also talk with the waiters and waitresses and guests, and nobody cared because they don't invest in the stock market. So it was pretty safe to do anything. I mean, you look at the world today, in 2024, 20 years later, we have social media.

00:26:10:24 - 00:26:13:00

Christian Soschner

And basically, I mean, anybody can post on x.

00:26:13:00 - 00:26:14:01

Christian Soschner

Dot com.

00:26:14:03 - 00:26:27:16

Christian Soschner

Anything. Elon Musk looks at it and just publishes to the world and you have the message out there isn't it a little bit more complicated today to keep, the communication really streamlined and in line with the regulations?

00:26:27:18 - 00:27:03:14

Christopher Uhde

You know, I mean, as you say, it's it's the, I think it's. Yeah, you have you have compliance departments who are going to be dealing with those kinds of, of, of aspects and as, as, and we have one, of course, and as they say, when in doubt, there is no doubt. And, and I think, you know, it's just about educating people in the organization that, there are many ways for this to get out there, and it can cause, you know, headaches, or much worse.

00:27:03:16 - 00:27:06:03

Christopher Uhde

So, so you just can't, can't do it.

00:27:06:06 - 00:27:18:09

Christian Soschner

But it means, basically companies who want to be on public markets in principle train everybody in the organization. I mean, it's not just top management. It goes down to everybody involved in critical studies.

00:27:18:09 - 00:27:22:19

Christopher Uhde

Because anybody could end up sitting on something that's material at some point or other, you.

00:27:22:21 - 00:27:35:17

Christian Soschner

Know, definitely could happen. I mean, when you have a clinical trial and people working hard two years on getting the results down to the lab technicians, I mean, everybody's happy when the results are positive. And it's so easy today to just to have we made it, we did it.

00:27:35:17 - 00:27:37:00

Christian Soschner

And, we can follow.

00:27:37:00 - 00:27:39:04

Christian Soschner

Suit on social media. And this would be the.

00:27:39:06 - 00:27:47:15

Christopher Uhde

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have never seen that happen. So but I it would be a horrible thing to see.

00:27:47:17 - 00:27:49:19

Christian Soschner

So to the point I want to make this.

00:27:49:21 - 00:27:50:09

Christian Soschner

Before.

00:27:50:09 - 00:28:00:19

Christian Soschner

People think about doing an IPO, they should really set up the organization in a way that they don't have compliance issues. Later down the road.

00:28:00:21 - 00:28:02:16

Christopher Uhde

Exactly. You know, paid for.

00:28:02:18 - 00:28:05:09

Christian Soschner

And then when this happens.

00:28:05:09 - 00:28:16:19

Christian Soschner

So this is something, that you probably can advise to companies, and can give them contacts. But this is something that needs to do themselves. And once they think they're ready for an IPO.

00:28:17:21 - 00:28:24:01

Christian Soschner

This is the direct handover point to your team where, you start doing it. Can you explain.

00:28:24:05 - 00:28:25:08

Christian Soschner

The steps.

00:28:25:08 - 00:28:32:13

Christian Soschner

That people then have to do once they really have set up everything internally? How does this process, the entire process look like?

00:28:32:15 - 00:28:59:08

Christopher Uhde

Well, I mean, so okay, so, so you know, that's when, you know, and part of this is, is still then now you get into that what's really like a gray area between internal and external. But, you know, making a prospectus is basically everything that you want to say to, investors anywhere about why your company is an attractive investment, but also what the risks are in it.

00:28:59:10 - 00:29:20:12

Christopher Uhde

Has to be in this prospectus. And you it it's an enormous, quantity of information that goes goes in there. You know, I'd say for a small company, you know, you you're probably talking about 50, sorry, 100 pages or something. And, the risk section

00:29:20:12 - 00:29:24:20

Christopher Uhde

is, is usually, a good chunk of that.

00:29:24:22 - 00:29:27:13

Christopher Uhde

And also the most,

00:29:27:13 - 00:30:05:18

Christopher Uhde

sort of. Yeah. Legal, legalistic language and and boring to read, but but, yeah. And generic usually. But, nevertheless. So, so, so, it'll talk about who your, your owners are. The history of the company. What the, you know, assets that the company has are, the, market that, the company's planning to, market, it's, products to and why the products are differentiated and so on.

00:30:05:20 - 00:30:44:15

Christopher Uhde

And, so essentially it tells the equity story of the company. Why should anyone invest in this one versus all the other companies that are out there? And, once that, happens, I mean, you you might get some sort of early look, meetings, with, with very focused, groups of investors, where you think there's a high chance that they could become, you know, key investors in, in in the process, we call them, cornerstones or anchors in the Nordics.

00:30:44:17 - 00:31:15:22

Christopher Uhde

And and then, in the meantime, you'll be taking all the material in the prospectus and using that to prepare an analyst presentation on, where, you, you know, that that the management team, so CEO, CFO, in the case of a biotech, you'd typically have, CSO or CMO. Yeah, there there could be other people there as well, depending on the, you know, the structure of the company.

00:31:15:24 - 00:31:38:22

Christopher Uhde

Commercial team, and so on, who would who would be present and then telling that equity story to the analysts over. I think the shortest one I've been in is, is three hours. The longest one I've been in. It was a couple of days. And, so it's. Yeah, it's your chance as a company

00:31:38:22 - 00:31:48:00

Christopher Uhde

to tell your story and make sure the message you want to get out that, you know, is out there so that that because you want people to

00:31:48:00 - 00:31:50:18

Christopher Uhde

understand the company the way you do, right?

00:31:50:18 - 00:32:07:11

Christopher Uhde

You want them to see why you find it so exciting that you want to work there, and therefore, why they should want to invest. Because at the end of the day, it'll make the money right? So that's what you have to do. And so you have a lot of work to make sure that that is, you know, told told.

00:32:07:11 - 00:32:45:20

Christopher Uhde

Well, and then, you know, there's a range of, of, of marketing materials, around that. I get sent out once I've written a report on, on, on an IPO process to, to market, that to investors as well. And then, then, then we move over to the sort of the, the execution side, which is, where you have investor meetings and so on, which is also where I would then be active, marketing the, the IPO.

00:32:45:22 - 00:33:11:03

Christopher Uhde

So, so, and then, through all that, you know, you're going to have legal looks involved every step of the way. And, banks, that are involved every step of the way, at least one and usually, two or more, depending on the size of the company. So, so yeah, I think that, that's probably most of it.

00:33:11:05 - 00:33:19:12

Christian Soschner

How many months are these? These, Well, what's the fastest that you have ever seen to to run through the process and successfully.

00:33:19:14 - 00:33:38:12

Christopher Uhde

I mean, I think, you know, so three, three months is probably the fastest, you know, some of it, but but I don't get involved, of course, in the internal stuff. Right. So I don't see it until it's ready for the, the sort of external preparations, at that point basically, or part of the way through it.

00:33:38:14 - 00:34:05:18

Christopher Uhde

I mean, you know. Let's say when it comes to who, you know, I typically meet companies in some cases years before they ever IPO. So it's, it's not usually that they're sort of brand new to me. You know, research is involved in vetting, who a bank wants to, work with, you know, for an IPO.

00:34:05:20 - 00:34:29:15

Christopher Uhde

At least at, at the banks where I've worked, I imagine it's everywhere. So, yeah, that's, that there's, and, and usually a forum for me to be able to contribute with, feedback, before things go very far along, to the company themselves. Right.

00:34:29:18 - 00:34:34:20

Christian Soschner

Yeah. I think it's, it's it's, Yes. Usually whenever, I mean, I just walk through what you said.

00:34:34:22 - 00:34:35:10

Christian Soschner

You first.

00:34:35:10 - 00:34:44:12

Christian Soschner

Of all, I need a management team that wants to be in a public company. So this is, Yeah. Not everybody does. Does one step. Let's be honest.

00:34:44:14 - 00:34:45:14

Christopher Uhde

No. Sure.

00:34:45:14 - 00:35:13:14

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. And so you know it. Yeah. You'll often it's also that you typically I mean, you need a different type of management for a public company than you, than you necessarily need for a private company. Which isn't to say that, you know, a private team couldn't do it. But it's a, it's a different skill set because you're, you're meeting investors regularly who are not sophisticated.

00:35:13:16 - 00:35:43:13

Christopher Uhde

You know, in terms of biology, you know, they may be very sophisticated when it comes to financial markets and so on, but, or and then, of course, you're also going to be retail investors who are not sophisticated on, on either score. But you don't want them to be saying something incorrect or. Yeah, get the wrong idea and spread that around social media, because that's of course, also, float flies around, very quickly.

00:35:43:13 - 00:36:09:12

Christopher Uhde

So, yeah, that you have to be a management team that enjoys the spotlight in a different way. And is savvy about communicating, yeah, to a wide range of people and, and keeping the message very, very consistent and not sort of speculating to often too much.

00:36:09:12 - 00:36:17:24

Christian Soschner

I totally agree. I mean, when I look at the ideal budget of an IPO, the end game is, increasingly valuation to get more money into the company.

00:36:18:01 - 00:36:19:03

Christian Soschner

Have,

00:36:19:05 - 00:36:45:03

Christian Soschner

Better negotiation power with banks to get to attract even more capital, where debt instruments, get better employees, more employees, well-educated employees with more publicity on public markets so that you can really grow the company. So this is my idealistic path, and it needs a skill set where people really enjoy explaining science to non-scientists. When you look at the private markets.

00:36:45:16 - 00:36:47:19

Christian Soschner

Most investors in private markets.

00:36:47:19 - 00:36:48:04

Christian Soschner

Have.

00:36:48:04 - 00:36:51:03

Christian Soschner

A scientific background and understand the science.

00:36:52:01 - 00:37:05:14

Christian Soschner

On public markets, if someone wants to grow the valuation at the end of the day and, builds a bigger company, there is no way around, communicate with retail investors, with institutional investors. And these are usually not.

00:37:05:16 - 00:37:07:16

Christian Soschner

Scientists. Is this,

00:37:07:18 - 00:37:09:03

Christian Soschner

But how do you see that?

00:37:09:05 - 00:37:10:03

Christopher Uhde

No, I mean, I think

00:37:10:03 - 00:37:32:14

Christopher Uhde

that's, that that captures it to a great extent. You probably get, I would be speculating too much. Yeah. You can get, generalist, professional investors, in, in private realms as well. Right. But, they, they typically then, of course, have an appetite for this kind of thing.

00:37:32:14 - 00:37:39:08

Christopher Uhde

And it's not usually their first, trip to the, rodeo. So, yeah.

00:37:39:10 - 00:37:39:23

Christian Soschner

I mean, when.

00:37:39:24 - 00:37:44:01

Christian Soschner

I look at my experience, most VCs, if you have a scientific background.

00:37:44:03 - 00:37:44:13

Christian Soschner

Yes.

00:37:44:13 - 00:37:50:24

Christian Soschner

When novices train around, they usually have especially be talking about biopharma.

00:37:51:00 - 00:37:51:16

Christopher Uhde

Yeah.

00:37:51:18 - 00:38:00:10

Christian Soschner

They usually have an event that motivates them to invest in a risky area, which has nothing to do with making profits. So let's put it this on quality, for example.

00:38:00:13 - 00:38:01:02

Christopher Uhde

Well, I mean, so

00:38:01:02 - 00:38:32:03

Christopher Uhde

what you know, what we often, see is that companies well, it's almost desirable to, to I would say actually, that you want to do, sort of a pre-IPO round, a crossover around. And that's when you start to get in, non VC institutional investors, and you know, who are, who are known, quantities, let's say, or better known often better known quantities to, the broader public markets.

00:38:32:05 - 00:38:52:05

Christopher Uhde

So and in those situations, it's often a good, it's often attractive if you have a mix of specialists and, let's say local generalists, who are, yeah, well known for they're seen as a stamp of, of, of quality.

00:38:52:07 - 00:38:56:02

Christian Soschner

And then you have, quarterly reporting, quarterly calls.

00:38:56:02 - 00:39:34:22

Christopher Uhde

Yes. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. All the, all of those events which are, are, very public events when, people like me, come and ask, sometimes, smart questions and sometimes stupid questions and, sometimes cheeky questions. And and, you have to, make sure you're giving out the same message to every single person, who's, who's listening to the equity story, whether it's on that call or afterwards or, or whatever.

00:39:34:24 - 00:39:40:14

Christopher Uhde

So the whole the market gets the same story from everybody, and all the market gets that story.

00:39:40:16 - 00:39:42:11

Christian Soschner

You mentioned before.

00:39:42:13 - 00:39:47:23

Christian Soschner

The term consistency, consistency in messaging.

00:39:48:07 - 00:39:50:01

Christian Soschner

What I wonder, how can you do that in.

00:39:50:03 - 00:39:57:23

Christian Soschner

In biotech, I mean, biotech with all the study results into high fail rates is anything but consistent in delivering.

00:39:58:00 - 00:40:01:17

Christian Soschner

A consistent message. How to how do you do that with biotechs?

00:40:01:19 - 00:40:02:05

Christopher Uhde

Well,

00:40:02:05 - 00:40:28:24

Christopher Uhde

I mean, I don't know if if I, I guess it depends, you know, exactly a little bit on on how you mean. I suspect to me, it's definitely possibly be consistent in, you know, are you first of all, are you pleased with the result that you have? If so, why? And, you need to, explain what, opportunities it unlocks.

00:40:29:01 - 00:40:56:24

Christopher Uhde

You know, why is this, an inflection, an inflection point for for the valuation of the company? Those things don't really change depending on who you talk to. Of course, the level of detail can, can change just because some people don't care about that level of detail. Specialists definitely typically will. I think the main thing is you have to plan in advance what, before these events.

00:40:56:24 - 00:41:17:13

Christopher Uhde

So what are we willing to say about what this means so that, you know, we're going to we're not going to tell everyone literally exactly the same script because they don't want all of that same script. But we want to basically, you know, if somebody asks a question, you know, what what what, what are we going to tell them?

00:41:17:13 - 00:41:36:17

Christopher Uhde

Because then it has to be the same for everybody. That's it's more, I guess, like that. So you need to plan out. So what could they possibly ask us? And if they ask us, these subjects, you know, where is our line to say, okay, that we're not going to talk about? And, at least at this time.

00:41:36:19 - 00:41:37:19

Christian Soschner

I think that the key

00:41:37:19 - 00:41:58:22

Christian Soschner

point here is that, being a public company means, a lot of selling. It's a selling mission, and it's a different sell to business, and it's a different story selling to because it's a different story to selling to crossover fans. And maybe sometimes people become ambitious and say, I mean, Elon Musk is a nice guy, is the richest person in the world to most wealth, the wealthiest person in the world.

00:41:58:24 - 00:41:59:18

Christian Soschner

With,

00:41:59:20 - 00:42:11:04

Christian Soschner

North of trillion dollar, I think. Meanwhile, valuation, a I think $4 trillion right now. And someone might say, let's build something like that in bio biotech. We don't have it.

00:42:13:02 - 00:42:16:07

Christian Soschner

At the end of the day, it means selling to people like Warren Buffett.

00:42:16:09 - 00:42:17:13

Christian Soschner

And,

00:42:17:15 - 00:42:21:00

Christian Soschner

When I interpret Warren Buffett's investment approach.

00:42:21:02 - 00:42:21:10

Christian Soschner

What he.

00:42:21:10 - 00:42:26:04

Christian Soschner

Looks for is a management that consistently delivers plan.

00:42:26:04 - 00:42:27:20

Christian Soschner

Never returns.

00:42:27:22 - 00:42:38:11

Christian Soschner

In the same size every quarter. So every quarter, the same increase in revenues, the same increasing profit and just staying consistent. No ups and downs. No, no no saying.

00:42:38:13 - 00:42:41:08

Christian Soschner

One quarter we doubled our revenues.

00:42:41:08 - 00:42:44:10

Christian Soschner

And then the next quarter and now we have it's.

00:42:44:12 - 00:42:48:14

Christian Soschner

Okay now we tripled it. I just found out. How do you see the.

00:42:48:14 - 00:42:59:23

Christian Soschner

Possibility in biotech or the companies that you see which which type of companies are suited foreign investment style, like Warren Buffett? At the end of the day, when you want to grow $1 trillion companies, it's dispersed.

00:43:00:00 - 00:43:01:10

Christopher Uhde

Which basically the only ones

00:43:01:10 - 00:43:25:01

Christopher Uhde

would be for, for Warren Buffett. Really, none of them, actually, no, I know he has, but, JNJ at one time or another, but I think the first thing is that he's always said, in the past that I don't invest in companies in anything. I don't understand, which is a pretty good policy.

00:43:25:03 - 00:43:59:07

Christopher Uhde

But, yeah, I guess once or twice he's, Yeah. At least he's felt he's had a good enough grasp of the moving parts that he's been willing to, to take the jump. But, if there's any, any company in our space, it would be a big pharma company. But because because they are, you know, they have the kind of stability that you would need for for an investor like that, it's a different it's a completely different, type of investor than the typical bio pharma investor at any stage, really.

00:43:59:10 - 00:44:00:16

Christian Soschner

Let's talk about let's.

00:44:00:16 - 00:44:06:02

Christian Soschner

Talk about the biopharma, investor that you experience in, in your career.

00:44:07:00 - 00:44:12:18

Christian Soschner

What are the selling points to this type of, of investors? What do they want to see?

00:44:12:20 - 00:44:13:00

Christopher Uhde

I

00:44:13:00 - 00:44:47:23

Christopher Uhde

mean, so, so, let's say since 20th February 2021, it's, it's been revenue and earnings to keep this simple. Right? And growth. I think, so, so, so the types of investors have have kind of or at least their appetites have shifted, since, since then. Before that it was different. It was a different pool, of investors or, appetites.

00:44:48:00 - 00:45:16:14

Christopher Uhde

So, I think, you know, we need so we can, we can take a step back and say across those two groups of investors and the two types of companies that are in there, you know, people want to see, a strong team. They want to see committed owners and savvy owners, not necessarily the same owner will be both, but they want to see that.

00:45:16:16 - 00:45:42:21

Christopher Uhde

They want to see clearly defined value inflection points, including, you know, meaningful near and medium term catalysts. They want clear messaging around the risk profile. And that kind of comes back to what we were talking about. What does it mean when you have these results and what you know, they need to make a judgment about the probability of success, right?

00:45:42:21 - 00:46:37:14

Christopher Uhde

Of, of of a project. And that is both on the, development side, but also on the commercial side. I imagine, you know, just from hearing the questions you're asking that a lot of your, listeners are, on the development side, I think a lot of, investors, in, public companies would say that, once you've got your product approved, you're, you're you're now getting to the hard part, when, which, sounds, a little bit deflating, after going through the incredible, feat of getting a product approved by the FDA or EMA or whomever.

00:46:37:16 - 00:47:10:12

Christopher Uhde

And that kind of illustrates just the massive complexity of the whole thing, right? But I think, you, you know, you need to have explained both of those sides of the coin. And, yeah, so that they have, as fair an idea as possible, I think, of what what they're getting into, and I would say good companies on that score are very good at giving a fair picture of what that looks like.

00:47:10:14 - 00:47:32:00

Christopher Uhde

Because they want they believe that they're going to continue in the future, and they're going to want those investors to come back. If. Yeah, we probably get further into that later on. But so then that the last thing I would say is, you know, you want as you clear messaging also around the differentiation of the companies approach in general.

00:47:32:00 - 00:47:40:11

Christopher Uhde

Right. So, so yeah, I think those are the main things that you would see across any company, in the space.

00:47:40:11 - 00:47:49:03

Christian Soschner

That makes sense. I'm always impressed how important the team is. This is, I think at any stage of, of investment, have to have the right team for the job.

00:47:49:05 - 00:47:49:20

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. You

00:47:49:20 - 00:48:11:09

Christopher Uhde

know, I mean, it's a funny thing, right? It's, I think, so what, you know. Yeah, what I've also heard many times is that the single biggest predictor of success of a, of a company. Right. And I definitely believe that. I think, you know, there's a lot to be said for committed and savvy owners as well.

00:48:11:11 - 00:48:42:10

Christopher Uhde

Frankly, and I would say, so you have, you know, specialists who will be probably more focused on the, credentials and bonafides of the team itself. Generalists will probably tend to focus a little bit more on the, owners, as a quality stamp and so on. You know, and hope because hopefully good owners are making sure that there's a good team on board as well.

00:48:42:10 - 00:48:57:23

Christopher Uhde

Right. It's harder for generalists to see who is, you know, what does it mean that, you know, you have this credential in your background on your CV? It's obviously a different story if you're a specialist.

00:48:58:01 - 00:49:16:10

Christian Soschner

Yeah. I think when you look at the I mean, I see two types of companies basically, that I think make sense to put on public market is the, therapeutic companies, somebody who develops something new. And in my opinion, you mentioned bringing it to the market, if you can, in initial indications it's possible.

00:49:16:12 - 00:49:17:19

Christian Soschner

But when.

00:49:17:19 - 00:49:21:19

Christian Soschner

I think about the typically biotech company, 20, 30 people.

00:49:22:09 - 00:49:27:12

Christian Soschner

Highly specialized moving it forward, I doubt they can, build a safe structure.

00:49:28:06 - 00:49:32:23

Christian Soschner

A Covid safe structure to efficiently, promotes that. So it's a P2P.

00:49:33:00 - 00:49:33:20

Christian Soschner

Cell later on.

00:49:33:20 - 00:49:49:01

Christian Soschner

And this means for the team in my opinion, when you look at it, you need someone who already has experience with licensed deals, someone who worked probably in a big pharma company and, understands how the processes in big pharma work to really connect the biotech company. Terrific.

00:49:49:03 - 00:49:49:13

Christopher Uhde

No, that's

00:49:49:13 - 00:50:19:22

Christopher Uhde

of course true. Right. And I mean, that is typically, the dream every biotech investor is, is dreaming when they go into, into a company is that at least there's a, there should be a, probably a good chance of, of, a take out, I think in, in reality, it's extremely important that a team, be able to, look at the commercial side of things and, and, take a serious approach to it.

00:50:19:24 - 00:50:44:04

Christopher Uhde

For one thing. Well, there's two aspects to it. Or three really. Number one, they might actually want to do it themselves. Look at our genetics. Right. That turned out extremely well. So it can be done and it can be done with a, with a flair. Then you have, a larger set who maybe, you know, would like to be bought up, but there isn't demand for it.

00:50:44:06 - 00:51:20:15

Christopher Uhde

At the time that they actually get to the market, or before that. And so they then are stuck with a product that they wouldn't be able to sell if they don't prepare for it. And that is a terrible situation to be in. And the third is, is similar, right. If if you are negotiating with a company and you, want to take out and you want to be bought, well, if they know that you don't have any preparations or any plans to do it yourself, you know, they have you in a, in a, in a tight place.

00:51:20:17 - 00:51:31:17

Christopher Uhde

So, so, it's I would say that it's, typically the best, plan is to, to plan for, any eventuality.

00:51:31:17 - 00:51:34:03

Christian Soschner

That's true. And the second type.

00:51:34:03 - 00:51:52:05

Christian Soschner

Of companies, I think, which are a little bit underappreciated sometimes, all the single service companies like formulation developers, some who has experience in clinical development, I mean, these are perfectly suited companies for an IPO, especially in these days when revenues and earnings and earnings growth are so important.

00:51:52:05 - 00:52:17:06

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. And and also because you have you know it's a different risk profile. Right. It's it's tends to be, you know, they tend to have, an edge in terms of, you know, risk diversification of their projects or, and, or, you know, reformulations of existing drugs which have already been de-risked on most of the biological risk.

00:52:17:06 - 00:52:33:18

Christopher Uhde

So that makes a huge difference to, investors who are trying to limit their exposure to biological risk while it's at the same time potentially enjoying the upside of the biotech space. So, so, yeah.

00:52:33:18 - 00:52:58:24

Christian Soschner

Now, the typical Shelby maker. So I think Lonza is doing pretty well on the stock market, public company, and there are many, many smaller companies that, just maybe it's not an endorsement from your side, but it's just, to give you an example, what type of companies? I mean, you see, a lot of, teams successful teams that say, okay, I mean, we can develop formulations faster than the industry, and we are first in class, and everybody needs it as a why don't you grow it?

00:52:58:24 - 00:53:08:21

Christian Soschner

Yeah, because we don't find pieces you don't need because you have revenues. And you can then, later put it on a public market. How do you see these, these type of companies for, for your business?

00:53:08:23 - 00:53:09:09

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. I

00:53:09:09 - 00:53:36:05

Christopher Uhde

mean, well, you know, we have, a number of them in, in the Nordics, and I, I cover a couple of them, I mean, one is, is, cameras that has, one product that's marketed and another that's, in, in, you know, sitting with the regulators right now, which are free formulations of, of, known substances or approved substances.

00:53:36:07 - 00:53:59:16

Christopher Uhde

And so they have revenue, they have earnings. And, they're doing a great job. And then, another company, is, is sort of more thinking along the lines of more like Lonza does, which is sort of supply of material, for the developers. And then looking at, very broad range of, of, of clients, across the industry.

00:53:59:16 - 00:54:37:10

Christopher Uhde

Right, or potential clients across the industry. And so that one is, nano form. In, in Finland of all places. And yeah, as you say, there are quite a lot of companies that have some sort of, play, in the reformulation space where formulation space. And then I think, you know, some of them have have a better chance than, than others, and actually becoming, well, anything along the scale that Lonza has, yeah.

00:54:37:12 - 00:54:39:08

Christopher Uhde

So, yeah.

00:54:39:10 - 00:54:39:22

Christian Soschner

Yeah, I don't.

00:54:39:22 - 00:54:47:14

Christian Soschner

Okay. Before we dive deeper into their stock market basics, let's talk about you and and your journey.

00:54:47:16 - 00:54:49:15

Christian Soschner

What does it take to.

00:54:49:20 - 00:54:56:00

Christian Soschner

Get, into one of the best investment banks in the Nordics and, working in your field?

00:54:56:02 - 00:54:56:16

Christopher Uhde

Oh.

00:54:56:16 - 00:55:30:05

Christopher Uhde

Well, yeah. I think, it it depends, on on, you know, what kind of area you're in? I guess, in my case, you know, biotech is is quite a specialized area. So, normally a bank would want somebody who has, financial education. In my case, I don't have that, formerly, it was, picked up on the job.

00:55:30:07 - 00:56:01:19

Christopher Uhde

And, you know, what I do have, of course, is, is an advanced degree. And in, biomedical science, broadly speaking. So, I think that's that's, of course, one one thing, in general, you know, they want to see it's not such a different, you need to be able to communicate with, with a wide range of people effectively.

00:56:01:21 - 00:56:36:00

Christopher Uhde

And in that respect, it's not so different from from, being on, a communication team of a public company. Right. It's, at the end of the day, you're selling a product to, customers who are, investors, and they have, all kinds of experiences and strengths and backgrounds. And, and so you need to be able to direct and also appetites for, for risk for, yeah.

00:56:36:02 - 00:57:00:00

Christopher Uhde

Certain types of stories, time horizons and so on. So you need to be able to understand what they're looking for and, you know, help them direct them to companies that can, you know, be, you know, interesting ideas, or opportunities, and then obviously. You know, you need to have,

00:57:00:00 - 00:57:07:04

Christopher Uhde

and surprise, surprise and an analytical mindset, yeah.

00:57:07:06 - 00:57:07:17

Christopher Uhde

So I

00:57:07:17 - 00:57:12:08

Christopher Uhde

think,

00:57:12:10 - 00:57:27:03

Christopher Uhde

Yeah, that that's kind of, the main thing is. Right. It's and of course, it's I think, relatively, it won't surprise anyone to hear that it's a, a relatively hard working, type of role.

00:57:27:06 - 00:57:31:04

Christian Soschner

You you mentioned you graduated, I think, in the United Kingdom.

00:57:31:06 - 00:57:35:24

Christian Soschner

Yeah. You remember that, right? A biomedical degree. Let's,

00:57:36:01 - 00:57:38:18

Christian Soschner

Replace that biomedical degree.

00:57:38:20 - 00:57:41:24

Christian Soschner

What motivated you to move from.

00:57:42:04 - 00:57:43:11

Christian Soschner

The real sciences.

00:57:44:05 - 00:57:46:23

Christian Soschner

To the financial world?

00:57:47:00 - 00:57:47:11

Christopher Uhde

Yeah.

00:57:47:11 - 00:58:19:09

Christopher Uhde

Well, I think it kind of right that it began, at a very young age because my all my family were in finance. But, yeah, I don't think it was just that I did everything my parents told me, but, my, my father was a huge, fan of biotech investing. Back in the US, this was, and I think that sort of percolated into my subconscious.

00:58:19:09 - 00:58:50:23

Christopher Uhde

So I was, I think always interested in, in biology, as long as I can remember. Anyway, so I, I was, I think, open to a lot of different possibilities that, involved either one or the other of those two, things. But, I decided I wanted to do the biology part in university. So I was, I was at Edinburgh, and, yeah.

00:58:50:23 - 00:59:17:11

Christopher Uhde

So much did I want to do the biology thing that I went to university where there's, you know, like European universities, there's no core curriculum across a range of subjects. It was just biotechnology. But it did have a module on, industry, how the industry works and, you know, visits to different companies, in the, in the area, like Organon and, and, quintiles and and.

00:59:17:15 - 00:59:45:19

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. So, so, yeah, I mean, I was open to, either academia or, finance for a time. And, and then and obviously then, industry as well. But there was a funny situation where we went to visit, I think it was in us in Edinburgh. And, they said to us all, all undergrads, right.

00:59:45:24 - 00:59:58:02

Christopher Uhde

In biotechnology, you don't need an advanced degree to, to get, high up into the, the, leadership of, of a of a biopharma or CRO. And I being

00:59:58:02 - 01:00:09:11

Christopher Uhde

the cheeky guy that I am, I, I said, so how many of you have, PhDs and everyone raise their hand? Okay. Thank you very much. I got what I needed so that,

01:00:09:11 - 01:00:13:01

Christopher Uhde

you know, then I went to get a PhD.

01:00:13:03 - 01:00:37:12

Christopher Uhde

And, I was, was looking around, for for the best lab in the world, basically for the specific, very, very specific area that I was working in, the development of, ventral, midbrain. And, a paper came out in cell, that dealt with a lot of the major questions in the field at the time.

01:00:37:12 - 01:01:02:17

Christopher Uhde

And I said, that's where I got to go. So that's how I ended up in Sweden. And then, you know, the transition to finance, I think, was just, you know, I was already thinking about what to do, how to to and what are the right approaches or what are the avenues available. I was quite interested in venture capital.

01:01:02:19 - 01:01:34:03

Christopher Uhde

For a time. But I had, I think an important conversation with, actually, Kevin Johnson, who's now at Medici, used to be at, Cambridge Antibody Technology. And he, everybody pitches their own book. Right? So you always have to be kind of aware of that. But he said, you know, I don't think that you can have really great success in, in venture if you, have never had any operational experience.

01:01:34:05 - 01:01:56:09

Christopher Uhde

You know, you just you don't have the deep knowledge of what it takes to, you know, bring a company forward. I'm sure there are many people who, probably some of your listeners who will will vehemently disagree with that. But I think from my perspective, I've always been quite interested in, in having a strong fundamental understanding of how things work.

01:01:56:09 - 01:02:24:24

Christopher Uhde

And to me, that really chimed, so I sort of put venture capital on, on the back burner, and it's kind of moved progressively further back over time. But it did make me realize I knew I needed to get a bit broader perspective, because, you know, in one, one field for ten years and it's it's time to, start to branch out and see how these things can be applied.

01:02:25:01 - 01:03:02:00

Christopher Uhde

So I thought, venture capital, I so, equity research was, was a really interesting way to do that. And it's, it's a lot of fun because it's, Yeah, you're you're learning new things every day, about very different things. And you need a wide range of, sort of toolsets and knowledge bases because you have to understand the science, the biology, the, the, the, the clinical science, the basic science, the, financials, the communication and and reading between the lines.

01:03:02:02 - 01:03:11:18

Christopher Uhde

So it's, yeah. And then communicating yourself with people in a way that, that, reaches them and hopefully, you know, has an impact.

01:03:11:21 - 01:03:13:16

Christian Soschner

I have,

01:03:13:18 - 01:03:17:05

Christian Soschner

Take two notes, 2 to 2 topics that I would like to dissect a little.

01:03:17:05 - 01:03:18:13

Christian Soschner

Bit, more.

01:03:18:15 - 01:03:26:08

Christian Soschner

Which I find quite interesting, what you said there in the story that you mentioned that, people told you you don't need to be.

01:03:26:10 - 01:03:26:19

Christian Soschner

Well.

01:03:26:19 - 01:03:28:18

Christian Soschner

Educated to.

01:03:28:20 - 01:03:32:07

Christian Soschner

Climb the corporate ladder. Maybe you're.

01:03:32:09 - 01:03:40:10

Christian Soschner

Maybe a little bit dumb, but help. But then you ask the question. It's just inappropriate. I'm from Vienna, so people expect me to be unfriendly and, and kind.

01:03:40:12 - 01:03:43:04

Christian Soschner

And then you ask the question, say, how many of you.

01:03:43:07 - 01:03:46:14

Christian Soschner

Don't have a PhD? You have a PhD, and they say everybody.

01:03:46:14 - 01:03:47:21

Christian Soschner

So.

01:03:47:23 - 01:04:04:02

Christian Soschner

I think it really helps, especially in Europe, to have, higher education and, have a broader perspective on a lot of topics in life. What I find interesting still, in 2024, you mentioned it, when you were talking about, your education.

01:04:04:04 - 01:04:05:00

Christian Soschner

That.

01:04:05:02 - 01:04:12:13

Christian Soschner

Scientists usually don't get a financial education or a business education. You were lucky at your university that there was a little bit.

01:04:13:21 - 01:04:21:15

Christian Soschner

In my opinion, I mean, as a scientist. Okay. Next academic, you have, two career paths. One is, basic research, academia, and the other one is industry.

01:04:22:12 - 01:04:33:00

Christian Soschner

Why is there not more support for scientists to understand both worlds basic research? As an undergraduate or to the industry? But what's your view on that?

01:04:33:00 - 01:04:58:07

Christopher Uhde

Oh, well, I mean, culturally among academics, in Europe, for sure. There's historically been I mean, I had a discussion with it. I, when I was looking at, PhD positions and I was doing a master's, in a lab. So a research master's and, yeah, you know, I was, I was, talking to my boss at the time about, you know, so I, you know what?

01:04:58:12 - 01:05:18:07

Christopher Uhde

What is how to talk about it in career in interviews and, I said, so I, you know, I, I figure they'll ask me, so what do you want to do? And I guess I'll be kind of, open minded about, whether to be in industry or academia. And she said, oh, yeah. I don't think that's a good idea.

01:05:18:07 - 01:05:22:11

Christopher Uhde

You know, if somebody talk to me and said they were

01:05:22:11 - 01:05:30:12

Christopher Uhde

open to industry, I'd say, oh, it's just a waste of time, you know? And, I think

01:05:30:12 - 01:05:45:15

Christopher Uhde

there's definitely, a fair bit of that. They think about, you know, their network of scientists who they're going to work with. They're not thinking about themselves, about spinning companies out there, thinking about how will I get more papers out and, in high impact journals.

01:05:45:17 - 01:05:46:11

Christopher Uhde

I think the incentive

01:05:46:11 - 01:06:14:02

Christopher Uhde

structure is, is such an academia in Europe that. Yeah, we incentivize that, and not spin out, really, you know, let's say there are, I think the Nordics is a little bit special in that respect, that they have what's called letter under London Togs or the, teachers exemption. That basically means that they get, to own the IP, from their research.

01:06:14:02 - 01:06:32:03

Christopher Uhde

And it's not the universities which, can be a double edged sword. So there's universities have to kind of come up with a way to, deal with that to help the academics to actually get a startup started. But anyway, that's another, another subject from what you're talking about a little bit. Yeah.

01:06:32:03 - 01:06:34:00

Christian Soschner

So I think this is an important point.

01:06:34:01 - 01:06:45:01

Christian Soschner

I mean, when we look at the US market and what the difference is to the European market, this entrepreneurship attitude in the US is much stronger. And it's much more accepted or people are much.

01:06:45:03 - 01:06:45:13

Christian Soschner

Pushed.

01:06:45:13 - 01:06:56:19

Christian Soschner

Towards that direction. So when you have an idea that says market potential, go from the company. And this creates tremendous returns also for universities at the end of the day. And I think we have a little bit of a gap here in Europe.

01:06:56:19 - 01:07:19:09

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. I mean, look, if you it should be obvious that if you're going to be the kind of researcher that found companies that actually raise capital and eventually get taken out, that you're gonna, you're going to be probably making it easier to justify why you should get research spending, especially as you get toward the later years of your career when it's, it's harder.

01:07:19:11 - 01:07:39:17

Christopher Uhde

I mean, early years, it's hard for everybody. Right? But, but in the later years, you're going to be competing with, with people who have done that and people who, have are young and, I mean, in Sweden it becomes quite difficult, I think, once you're, certainly past your 50s to, to raise, you know, funding for academic research.

01:07:39:19 - 01:07:46:03

Christopher Uhde

I think it would be different if you had a record of creating 20 companies, globally.

01:07:46:03 - 01:07:47:07

Christopher Uhde

Yeah.

01:07:47:09 - 01:08:11:06

Christian Soschner

There's no good examples. I mean, to build on on what you said with the second part of the questions towards mental capital. I mean, when I look at my career, it was in the 90s, academia, research in finance, economy, internet was young. So I worked with Harvard Center and University of Crowds on behalf of the European Union in finding out how this new technology will shift the economy and what it means at the end of the day, and coming from, from from business, finance, economy.

01:08:11:06 - 01:08:33:07

Christian Soschner

I thought, well, I mean, it's something theoretical and, social science is happening in companies and organizations. So I moved towards public companies and learned how to build companies. In for global players at the end of the day. And this August, the same thing, where is the market where it needs? How can we fulfill that? Do we find something that we can offer to customers?

01:08:33:07 - 01:08:41:05

Christian Soschner

Is it a good market? Can we grow it? And this is the playbook. When I look at the venture capital scene from 2006 onwards in Europe.

01:08:42:07 - 01:09:01:17

Christian Soschner

I don't think that many VCs had industrial experience of what I saw. Very often my interpretation was to come from academia, start working for a fund, and that's it. Basically, I did pretty much the same play poker. You put the technology into a company, and if the technology works, you can sell it, and if it doesn't work, you fold it into the next thing.

01:09:01:19 - 01:09:14:22

Christian Soschner

When you come from image acquisition background, from a public company, you have a different playbook. Is you also okay, how can you grow it? How can you develop that into a business, which means, in essence, more or find something that you can mold it and hire more people?

01:09:14:24 - 01:09:15:20

Christian Soschner

Why do.

01:09:15:22 - 01:09:22:09

Christian Soschner

I mean, maybe I see the wrong way. You talk too much more. People probably denied it.

01:09:22:11 - 01:09:23:04

Christian Soschner

What type of.

01:09:23:04 - 01:09:32:07

Christian Soschner

Venture capitalists do you see in Europe? Do they have a business background? Or are they more from the Scientific and Pure Investment bank? Go back to.

01:09:32:09 - 01:09:33:00

Christopher Uhde

I see a mix.

01:09:33:00 - 01:10:01:06

Christopher Uhde

I see a mix. I see people who will have, an academic background. I see people who have a finance background, and I see people who have, been involved in running companies, and I, a lot of the funds that I think of locally, are a mix of that even, you know, whether small or large.

01:10:01:08 - 01:10:29:21

Christopher Uhde

Not all of them, so, so, you know, some of them may have, heavier weight towards, yeah, of people. I mean, let's say, you know, they may have been in consulting, working with industry. As well, of course. But I think in general, yeah, I mean, the vast majority of the funds I see, it's a bit of a broader mix, than what you're describing.

01:10:29:23 - 01:10:42:00

Christopher Uhde

But then, you know, it may be that they've been in bigger companies as well, rather than small ones, and that's a totally different environment as well. Yeah. But I, I'd say it's a bit of a mix.

01:10:42:03 - 01:10:43:23

Christian Soschner

I still see,

01:10:44:00 - 01:11:02:11

Christian Soschner

Some differences between the European and the US market. I mean, the US market is much bigger, and, venture capital plays a significant role in the US, but also plays a significant role here in Europe to get companies, towards public markets and, and protect the economy as a whole. What are we missing in Europe?

01:11:03:10 - 01:11:04:12

Christian Soschner

What do we.

01:11:04:12 - 01:11:06:20

Christian Soschner

Need more to.

01:11:06:22 - 01:11:09:23

Christian Soschner

Close the difference or the gap to the US?

01:11:10:00 - 01:11:10:11

Christopher Uhde

Yeah.

01:11:10:11 - 01:11:39:23

Christopher Uhde

I mean, I guess, you know, it was you were, commenting, I think, on LinkedIn earlier or yesterday, maybe it was even as recently as that about, you know, some I think. Yeah, it was, it was, there's this, culture in Europe, sorry, in Europe of not giving options to a broad range of employees and in startups, just just the C-suite, basically, if, if that.

01:11:40:00 - 01:12:05:24

Christopher Uhde

And that contrasts with the US, of course. And I think that that's an excellent point. I, I've actually, you know, I've often heard European investors ask company management, so why haven't you bought shares? In the US they're usually asking, so have you given them enough options to keep them incentivized? So I think that's, definitely a distinction that is probably meaningful.

01:12:06:01 - 01:12:27:05

Christopher Uhde

And, but I think that the other sort of most obvious things that come to my mind are sort of ways to coming back to others, talking about ways to incentivize researchers to spin out. And I think one thing that would be relatively simple to do, and, you know, doesn't necessarily have to be implemented across Europe, but, you know, I'm sure it would benefit Europe as a whole as well.

01:12:27:06 - 01:12:51:14

Christopher Uhde

Would be just to allocate, a greater share of public research funding to investigators with a track record of patenting technology and spinning out companies, and maybe sort of you could say, like have, sort of, a bonus element of it in terms of, of research, you know, you keep part of the research funding that's allocated back until they have spun something out.

01:12:51:16 - 01:13:26:13

Christopher Uhde

And that unlocks more, for example, that, that that would be one, I think, relatively straightforward thing that, you know, Sweden could implement or, you know, you have, you know, institutions that are, philanthropic, in all of these different countries, including in Sweden, where they could also make that kind of, a call that would just kind of help contribute to this general pursuit of, innovation, not just, invention or.

01:13:26:13 - 01:14:01:15

Christopher Uhde

Yeah, discovery. And then I think another way to, to sort of ease access to public capital within the EU would be and again, it could be on, on the national level or the, EU wide level, that would be sort of to mandate that basically, regardless of of the location of listing within, you know, Europe, the European pension funds would consider locally domiciled small and mid-cap biotech equally, you know, so if they're listed in, in one year, at least within Europe.

01:14:01:15 - 01:14:11:21

Christopher Uhde

Right, listed, you know, if they're listed here, somewhere on the continent, that's good enough. And then there is valid in investment as anything else.

01:14:11:23 - 01:14:19:00

Christian Soschner

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Thanks for pointing at the post from yesterday. I mean, this is a question I frequently ask when I talk with people from the United States.

01:14:19:02 - 01:14:19:23

Christian Soschner

I mean, I'm coming.

01:14:19:24 - 01:14:37:24

Christian Soschner

I was born in instance in the 70s, grew up in the 80s, started in the 90s. And, I always had the feeling that the US market and Europe are at par on the same level, basically. So you have European companies, US companies, and looking on part of the public markets to seemed pretty much you always had the European counterpart to the US company.

01:14:37:24 - 01:14:42:03

Christian Soschner

When I look today on the stock market, just ask you one question.

01:14:42:05 - 01:14:45:09

Christian Soschner

How many trading dollar companies do we have in Europe?

01:14:45:11 - 01:14:46:01

Christopher Uhde

Yeah, exactly.

01:14:46:01 - 01:15:00:16

Christopher Uhde

I know it's a little depressing when they talk about the magnificent Seven, and it's basically luxury companies here. And then of course Novo, which is a true innovator. So at least we have one.

01:15:00:18 - 01:15:06:01

Christian Soschner

Yeah. No, no, no one is that outlier. But now this is on. And I was like and I usually ask.

01:15:06:01 - 01:15:20:23

Christian Soschner

The guys from Silicon Valley or from California, what's the difference? And it's these are the two things that they frequently bring up. One thing is failure was I mean, when something when a company failed and people are looking for a new job and they work in the startup, field.

01:15:21:00 - 01:15:22:00

Christian Soschner

They get five new.

01:15:22:00 - 01:15:32:19

Christian Soschner

Offers the next day. And they said, cool. You worked in a startup. You understand what you should not do. Now please come to us. And in Europe, it's your company. Fail. You must be a failure. So shame on you.

01:15:32:21 - 01:15:34:10

Christian Soschner

Go away. And the.

01:15:34:10 - 01:15:53:21

Christian Soschner

Second thing is participation. And this seems to be also, I think, last year had, I have to look it up, had a conversation with, someone from the biotech field from San Diego, and, he's running Viacom, California, to that up.

01:15:53:23 - 01:15:56:21

Christian Soschner

And, he said employee participation.

01:15:56:23 - 01:16:18:07

Christian Soschner

It's common in the United States that people get tons of stock options down to the lab technicians. It's not only the top management, everybody. And they know when this company succeeds, I can do whatever I want with my life. I can surf, I can sail, I can sit on the beach, or I can start five new companies. But I get enough money from that.

01:16:18:07 - 01:16:21:24

Christian Soschner

And I think these two things, we don't have in Europe.

01:16:22:01 - 01:16:22:17

Christopher Uhde

Yeah,

01:16:22:17 - 01:16:41:01

Christopher Uhde

yeah, yeah. No, I, I agree, and that's, yeah, I, I don't think more needs to be said really. It's, pretty straightforward and that those are things that can be done at kind of a grassroots level. Right. Very much so. Right. So it's, Yeah. Owners, owners take note.

01:16:41:03 - 01:16:49:22

Christian Soschner

Yeah. That's true, that's true. Let's go back to to your bank. During the, Sepp, what's what's the rights?

01:16:49:24 - 01:16:53:21

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. ACB. So Scandinavia. Scott and the skill, the banking. So.

01:16:53:21 - 01:16:58:21

Christian Soschner

Okay, as for me, as an Austrian, as it is much easier. So you're basically.

01:16:58:21 - 01:17:03:11

Christian Soschner

The the go to bank in the Nordics for biopharma.

01:17:03:13 - 01:17:04:09

Christian Soschner

IPO.

01:17:04:11 - 01:17:06:05

Christian Soschner

Why is your bank the top choice?

01:17:06:11 - 01:17:06:19

Christopher Uhde

Well,

01:17:06:19 - 01:17:42:08

Christopher Uhde

we're we're one of them, right? I mean, I think, why why are we known? I think we're known for our deep research on, on companies and, and markets in the sector and, and, occasionally, bold recommendations. I think, you know, so on the research side, just I could point to, some of the things that we do, we have a global sector report, for example, which is un, I mean, we're the only Nordic bank that does that that has, an a special focus, of course, on the Nordics.

01:17:42:13 - 01:18:25:17

Christopher Uhde

So try to put them in context. But, you know, looking top down instead of just bottom up. And I think, you know, if you, if you, yeah, if you look at, if you look at it by the I include multilateral trading platforms, in addition to non-regulated markets, there are a little over, 200 companies listed in, in Sweden across, health care, and, and another 60 or so in the rest of the Nordics, and about 2/5 of that of biotechs, and obviously the, you know, yeah, the vast majority, of course, have have no chance of becoming profitable, but it's, it's, indicative

01:18:25:17 - 01:18:47:08

Christopher Uhde

of the relative ease of attracting capital. And, then I think, you know, if you look at, our track record, I don't have to, make anything up, actually, which is nice. In these situations, to toot my own horn. There's a periodical called, Affairs World and some business world, that can speak for me.

01:18:47:08 - 01:19:11:23

Christopher Uhde

And they did an analysis of IPOs since 2021, and showed that most banks, in the Nordics, IPOs performed very poorly. Since then, and they, they actually highlighted our main competitor in that list. Only two banks had run IPOs that in aggregate, had performed, positively since 2021. And SCB was the only big one.

01:19:12:00 - 01:19:39:21

Christopher Uhde

So I think that's, I think those are the kind of two things I would say. You know, we do, deeper and broader research and, sort of, you know, in terms of broad in terms of putting a global perspective on it. And, we, strive to do quality IPOs. And I think the other thing I would say is that we are the largest Nordic Bank, we're one of the biggest in Europe.

01:19:39:23 - 01:19:58:23

Christopher Uhde

And, with that comes a very strong, global organization. So we have a really, good ECM, reach. Sorry. So equity capital markets team that that has a good reach with, a broad range of investors, as.

01:19:58:23 - 01:20:03:22

Christian Soschner

You mentioned, 2000 employees in the maturity of Saint. Mrs..

01:20:03:24 - 01:20:11:02

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. I think it's, actually, it's I think it's 17,017.

01:20:11:02 - 01:20:12:04

Christian Soschner

Oh, I got it wrong.

01:20:12:06 - 01:20:21:08

Christopher Uhde

17 months. Miss miss miss type that. Yeah. And I'll remember that because we're, you know, we're right on. Yeah. I mean, we have commercial banking as well, right?

01:20:21:10 - 01:20:26:02

Christian Soschner

So you have really a wide reach globally to connect companies to.

01:20:26:04 - 01:20:26:07

Christopher Uhde

I

01:20:26:07 - 01:20:50:08

Christopher Uhde

mean, we're a full service bank, so we have, yeah, but but with, you know, the core business being in the Nordics. But yeah, we have private banking, for example, which is also, of course, a helpful, thing to have in an IPO situation. We have, yeah, the investment banking, obviously. And, corporate banking.

01:20:50:08 - 01:21:12:20

Christopher Uhde

So, so, yeah, we work with, AstraZeneca and, and and novos of the world, or at least of Europe and, yeah. So, so I think, and then, yeah, we're, we're, one of the, largest commercial banks in the Nordics to.

01:21:12:22 - 01:21:14:07

Christian Soschner

Now use number of.

01:21:14:09 - 01:21:30:22

Christian Soschner

Yeah, it's number of employees. It's good to have and for companies so wants to do an IPO. I mean you got you got to get your message out. And the more people you have, that potentially can talk about the story and, supports the story, the better it is at the end of the day for the company that goes public before we dive into market volatility.

01:21:30:22 - 01:21:34:15

Christian Soschner

You mentioned it before. I mean, comparing 2021 with 2024.

01:21:34:15 - 01:21:35:09

Christian Soschner

And

01:21:35:11 - 01:21:37:05

Christian Soschner

So, taking that as a measure.

01:21:37:05 - 01:21:38:10

Christian Soschner

Of how successful.

01:21:38:10 - 01:21:41:02

Christian Soschner

IPOs were to go from the market peak to the market.

01:21:41:06 - 01:21:45:07

Christian Soschner

It. Yeah, I mean, but before I ask that,

01:21:45:09 - 01:21:59:05

Christian Soschner

When I look at continental Europe, everything, south of the Nordics, I think it's really rated biotech companies, do an IPO. And when you look at the Nordics, it seems to be the norm. I mean, you found a company, you go public.

01:21:59:07 - 01:21:59:19

Christian Soschner

Why is.

01:21:59:19 - 01:22:05:12

Christian Soschner

There such a difference between continental Europe, and the Nordics when we talk about IPOs?

01:22:05:14 - 01:22:05:18

Christopher Uhde

I

01:22:05:18 - 01:22:28:18

Christopher Uhde

mean, I think it's, kind of coming back a little bit to, to this, letter and then talk to begin with, this, you know, a fact that researchers own their own IP. So there's a bit more of an incentive to actually start your own startup. And then, you know, for example, you know, part of that has been that they then don't exactly know what to do because they've never started a startup before.

01:22:28:18 - 01:22:52:22

Christopher Uhde

And it's not as common as in the US. It's less of a network, among the academics to kind of go and talk to, about how to do it. But for example, my university Karolinska, they set up an organization and to then say, well, okay, we will, help you with that, an innovation incubator.

01:22:52:24 - 01:23:15:15

Christopher Uhde

And of course, we'll get that cut of the IP. And so then it makes it, you know, easier. But I think the history of it, of course, begins with Noble and Astra, as well as when big pharmacy, but, you know, we've, we, we now have a number of success stories in relatively recent years, including Gen Mab.

01:23:15:16 - 01:23:38:11

Christopher Uhde

So be out of the ashes of pharmacy, or what was left of it. When, when, after Pfizer was through with them, and, cameras. And I think it's safe to say Zeeland is, is, is, kind of, you know, it's way, and, and, then of course, there have been setbacks. The big one in the noughties was active biotech.

01:23:38:13 - 01:24:03:23

Christopher Uhde

More recently, we had to anchor peptides and or designs. Others, like cancer, have kind of overcome the regulatory bar to, to face hurdles of commercialization and, and are working their way through that. But I think that's, it's, you know, a history of, innovation in science and medicine. And, and sort of success stories along the way.

01:24:04:00 - 01:24:29:04

Christopher Uhde

And when, when those stories, come to a conclusion, then, then there's a churn of the people back into, into, the ecosystem and starting new ones. And then, of course, there's the, the advantages of the Stockholm stock market, which is sort of more broad than just biotech. Right?

01:24:29:06 - 01:24:30:21

Christian Soschner

So why are IPOs.

01:24:30:21 - 01:24:37:09

Christian Soschner

In the Nordics so attractive for, for investors, generally speaking, that they need to put money into companies? And,

01:24:37:11 - 01:24:38:02

Christian Soschner

Why is this.

01:24:38:02 - 01:24:40:16

Christian Soschner

So different? From, from from the attitude.

01:24:40:18 - 01:25:10:04

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. I mean, let's say like let's say, I mean, the relative advantages compared to other markets, right? I think it's just that you have I mean, there's a there's an article that is, I think was really good at illustrating what, what it was it's called, how Sweden stock market became the envy of Europe. And they were saying, you know, Sweden's got the deepest capital markets in Europe, including the UK, as a percent of GDP.

01:25:10:06 - 01:25:46:23

Christopher Uhde

Only the UK has actually listed more companies over the past ten years, and Sweden has had more than France, Germany, the Netherlands and Spain combined. 501 they said, you know, a big proportion of funds are small cap and or mid-cap and, and that size band is very popular amongst, Swedish private banking clients. Then you have, a high share of, of pension funds, investments that are domestic equities and even insurers are in the I mean, 50, about 50% of assets are in equities or I guess it was in 2022.

01:25:47:00 - 01:26:08:10

Christopher Uhde

So, you know, maybe that's shifted a little bit, but, you know, it's been kind of around hovering around that kind of number for a little while. And, and then of course, there's a strong retail cohort, which is another double edged sword. But for a biotech. But but I think, in contrast to the rest of Europe for sure.

01:26:08:12 - 01:26:14:05

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. And, and all of that has its origins and reforms that Sweden did in the 1980s.

01:26:14:05 - 01:26:24:01

Christian Soschner

So, I mean, this is a, I think, a nice bridge to the market volatility, because at the end of the day, one aspect of going public is that you want to have a higher

01:26:24:01 - 01:26:36:23

Christian Soschner

valuation in five years, then you have now. And valuation only can go up if there is anybody on the market, buying or at least being interested in what's listed on the stock market.

01:26:37:03 - 01:26:51:15

Christian Soschner

Yeah. But you look at continental Europe, I think for biotechs it's sometimes really hard to find, those retail investors who are interested and they seem to be different in the Nordics. So there seem to be this kind of, of investors who really look at the sector.

01:26:51:18 - 01:27:18:09

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. I mean, for sure. We have we have investors who are frequently anchor investors who, you know, I wouldn't they're not necessarily formally specialists, but they've done so many, biotechs that they, you know, almost are, they've seen a lot. So, so, yeah. That's that's definitely a factor.

01:27:18:10 - 01:27:20:03

Christian Soschner

Yeah, yeah.

01:27:20:03 - 01:27:28:05

Christian Soschner

We don't have that here, unfortunately. Let's switch over to market volatility. I mean, private private companies are fairly easy when it comes to market valuation or

01:27:28:05 - 01:27:42:17

Christian Soschner

when it comes to valuation. You do a seed round. You get €3 million for let's just make up numbers 10 million and your variation is 10 million. Before your valuation was zero. So suddenly you got incredibly wealthy from one day to the other.

01:27:42:17 - 01:27:45:22

Christian Soschner

So the shares were worth nothing to something.

01:27:45:24 - 01:27:46:04

Christian Soschner

Then.

01:27:46:04 - 01:28:05:11

Christian Soschner

You go to a series A, and let's just say you get another ten made evaluation of 50, and you can be proud because you push the valuation from, 10 million to just ignore pre and post money, 10 million to 50 million. Then you do is your recipe you'll get hundred million for I think you broke the example 50 million for 500 million.

01:28:05:11 - 01:28:06:22

Christian Soschner

And you had another.

01:28:06:22 - 01:28:08:14

Christian Soschner

Five x and it's.

01:28:08:14 - 01:28:14:03

Christian Soschner

Always a step up. You say, okay, 10 million of 50 million, 500 million. It's always up.

01:28:14:03 - 01:28:15:00

Christian Soschner

Up, up up, up.

01:28:15:04 - 01:28:15:22

Christopher Uhde

Yeah.

01:28:15:24 - 01:28:20:04

Christian Soschner

Then comes the IPO and for those listed.

01:28:20:04 - 01:28:27:22

Christian Soschner

In 2021, you probably with a 500 million valuation, you can go up to 5 billion or something to just stay in the picture in 2020.

01:28:27:22 - 01:28:33:10

Christian Soschner

One. I do think I have the super quarter sky and two years later you are a one.

01:28:33:10 - 01:28:34:22

Christian Soschner

Hundred million valuation.

01:28:34:24 - 01:28:39:00

Christian Soschner

So what's your advice to to, to biotech,

01:28:39:02 - 01:28:42:20

Christian Soschner

Executives who experienced that rollercoaster?

01:28:42:22 - 01:28:44:09

Christopher Uhde

Well,

01:28:44:09 - 01:29:02:20

Christopher Uhde

you know, now we're coming to the end of it. So they'll be having more time to reflect on their own experience. But I think, you know, to those who haven't been through it, and are hoping to be there's a good chance you will be then at some point, in the, in the next ten years or so,

01:29:02:20 - 01:29:04:20

Christopher Uhde

I think some things are in your control.

01:29:04:20 - 01:29:08:22

Christopher Uhde

Right. And others absolutely aren't. No one could

01:29:08:22 - 01:29:30:15

Christopher Uhde

predict Covid, right? There were some people who predicted there would be a pandemic at some point, but, these kind of predictions are generally very vague and, about timing and severity. So it's, you know, I think generally the best strategy is to try to be ambitious, but be sure to under-promise and overdeliver.

01:29:30:15 - 01:30:00:02

Christopher Uhde

And it's sound so simple. It's really quite a few who, who, actually managed to do it. Or I should say just a few who matched into it. It's easier said than done. I've never been on the inside before, so I'm not sure exactly what the winning formula is, but I think it certainly must involve setting significant, be more ambitious, but still definitely achievable targets.

01:30:00:04 - 01:30:23:07

Christopher Uhde

Internally. Right. So that you then say, okay, we're going to have something a little bit less ambitious, but still hopefully ambitious. For the outside. And if you know, because if you don't have a realistic target internally, you're never going to have a realistic target, externally either. So yeah. Then I guess, you know, beyond that, I could recite truisms, right?

01:30:23:07 - 01:30:46:21

Christopher Uhde

Like, be sure to raise capital when you can rather than waiting until you need to, obviously don't, you don't overestimate your own assets value. But again, it's easier said than done, right? Especially because it's not fixed over time. It's demand, not, science that determines the valuation. But that's, that's the that's the problem.

01:30:46:21 - 01:31:18:02

Christopher Uhde

Right? Because then when, when demand dissipates, your expectations were too high, you probably turned down an offer that was you will wish for the next several years or maybe forever, that you had accepted. I'd say then the next is, you know, spend cash judiciously. You should make sure you have enough cash to get past the next major inflection point in a scenario in which you're not able to raise further capital before you get there.

01:31:18:04 - 01:31:44:16

Christopher Uhde

Speaking of raising, when you can, it reminds me of some situations, that I've been exposed to, let's say, over the years for so, for example, you know, when, when the timing of the capital raise was, was maybe unusual, like in the month or so before I produce a date. It's good to be aware of of of how things are viewed from the outside.

01:31:44:16 - 01:32:05:17

Christopher Uhde

Right. Inevitably in a situation like that, all the outsiders who don't know all the reasons behind why you do this are going to start speculating that bad news is coming, that, you know, the company doesn't believe the good outcomes likely. It's it's Ockham's razor, right. Why else would anyone raise capital before such a major value?

01:32:05:17 - 01:32:34:15

Christopher Uhde

Inflection? It's the obvious question to ask. And that's how people will, of course, see it. Of course, there may be very good reasons for actually doing the raise than that, but but if they're not communicated and communicated convincingly, people will assume the simplest explanation, which is usually to assume the worst. And that then brings me to my next point, which is take the time to explain your case to the market.

01:32:34:17 - 01:33:00:10

Christopher Uhde

I've seen companies of a range of sizes. Usually in pharma, they know that they have to do this, so they, they actually do it. But, big pharma, I mean, but in, you know, everything below that many companies do not actually take the time to explain, you know, to the market, it's the most complicated sector there is.

01:33:00:12 - 01:33:27:11

Christopher Uhde

It's easy to fall into the trap that the you know, the average savviness of your investors is, is savvier than it is. And that's probably especially critical when it comes to M&A changes in strategy and changes in the capital structure. So, so if you get the sense from speaking with cell side analysts, for example, that they're not really getting the answers they're after, maybe they keep, you know, different analysts keep asking around the same subject.

01:33:27:13 - 01:33:48:01

Christopher Uhde

Maybe it's time to, you know, a light should go off that you should consider a follow up call to really say, let's, let's this is important. Let's let's make sure you are all understanding this. Then I think, yeah. So so, yeah, I think that covers a lot of it.

01:33:48:03 - 01:33:51:02

Christian Soschner

Now, it could potentially be into two things.

01:33:51:04 - 01:33:52:09

Christian Soschner

I would like to.

01:33:52:11 - 01:34:16:18

Christian Soschner

Dissect a little bit more communication. It's, I mean, public markets is not anonymous, so it's, basically there are people behind it. And so when I understood your advice. Right. It means communicate directly with people, especially with the, the critical, opinion leaders on the market. So directly face to face, one on one, it's not just, selling to an anonymous market.

01:34:16:20 - 01:34:21:20

Christian Soschner

It's still, even if it's a public market, it's still people communicate to people.

01:34:21:22 - 01:34:41:19

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. Face to face is is definitely good. Failing that, calls are excellent. And nowadays, many bigger companies do, zoom calls to, to, you know, make sure that you get to see management while they're doing the event. Yeah.

01:34:41:21 - 01:34:44:12

Christian Soschner

So I mean, the, the.

01:34:44:13 - 01:34:46:10

Christian Soschner

The communicate you mentioned communication.

01:34:46:10 - 01:34:48:03

Christian Soschner

About, often often.

01:34:48:03 - 01:35:01:00

Christian Soschner

So it's a very important, point. And I think the, the, the playbook 20 years ago was pretty much, don't overpromise, don't under deliver, as you said, have a positive communication, have a positive, news.

01:35:01:00 - 01:35:03:17

Christian Soschner

Flow, no drama.

01:35:03:19 - 01:35:50:23

Christopher Uhde

People are resistant about that positive being positive. I mean, it's interesting because now you have all the analytics, right? The and that actually go and and quantify everything that's positive or negative and highlight in, in the transcripts what was positive or negative or what it perceived to be at least right. Yeah. So so the flip side of that is that you end up getting companies, that, you know, big Pharma is, you know, Big pharma is that aren't doing so well is the classic, example this today where they just use every more superb, you know, superlatives and even hyperbole.

01:35:50:23 - 01:36:20:02

Christopher Uhde

Sometimes it sounds like, in all their communication and it just sounds so crap. It you don't if you follow them for very long, you'll realize that this is just not, you know, it doesn't work. It's it's not. No. Their share prices aren't higher. Just because they communicate by saying this is just the most spectacular data. We were really, really floored with how amazing it was.

01:36:20:04 - 01:36:46:22

Christopher Uhde

People see through that. So I think there is something to be said for being, realistic, and and honest as well. It's very hard, I think, to do because, there's a, there's going to be some kind of a balance at the end of the day. And, you know, you don't want to be honest in a way that pulls the rug out from underneath your long term equity story.

01:36:47:00 - 01:36:53:06

Christopher Uhde

But the long term equity story is not simply we want a higher share price, it's that we want people to understand

01:36:53:06 - 01:37:10:21

Christopher Uhde

what we're doing now and why it's important for the future. And that will then lead to a higher valuation over the long term. And when they know that this is your style, they're going to they're going to realize that and they'll say, okay.

01:37:10:21 - 01:37:31:04

Christopher Uhde

So they're usually pretty down to earth. And and you can you can trust them. That's I think what's really key to getting, you know, committed long term investors in a, in a startup or, you know, an early stage, public company.

01:37:31:06 - 01:37:53:12

Christian Soschner

I think, I mean, this is good points that you mentioned. Artificial intelligence was one. I didn't think about that. I want to make another point of building on what you said. I think there is a shift in the way people communicate. It's much more entertaining these days, especially on the US market, when I think about two people, Elon Musk, for example, I think with, with the X, the Twitter acquisition.

01:37:54:13 - 01:37:56:10

Christian Soschner

I imagine a European.

01:37:56:10 - 01:37:58:03

Christian Soschner

CEO of a public.

01:37:58:03 - 01:38:03:12

Christian Soschner

Company the size of Tesla carrying a sink into an office.

01:38:03:14 - 01:38:04:05

Christian Soschner

Posting.

01:38:04:05 - 01:38:18:10

Christian Soschner

That on social media and say, let that sink in. It was during the Twitter acquisition. It's pure entertainment. And they thought, okay, it's Elon Musk. But it seems to work. I mean, Tesla has, a great valuation again, but then also Jensen Huang, in one of his recent.

01:38:20:07 - 01:38:27:05

Christian Soschner

Interviews that he had on stage interviews. He said something about what? I mean, how can you say that as a CEO?

01:38:27:05 - 01:38:28:18

Christian Soschner

Is that, he was asked.

01:38:28:18 - 01:38:43:00

Christian Soschner

Something like, do you fire people? And he said, no, I don't fire people and say, wait, okay, this is politically correct, and it fits the US market. And then was a pause and he said, because it tortured them to greatness. And this is subject to a.

01:38:43:02 - 01:38:45:19

Christian Soschner

Lot of what is going on here. How do.

01:38:45:19 - 01:38:53:22

Christian Soschner

You see the shift in communication of this, this leadership personalities that we see on the US market? Is this really a shift that's happening right now.

01:38:53:24 - 01:38:54:18

Christian Soschner

Or is it.

01:38:54:21 - 01:39:12:21

Christopher Uhde

And it's, probably, you know, it's it's the, what do you call it? Vulgar ization of, of investment, of the investment world, the financial world, you know, when you get. It happens, of course. First,

01:39:12:21 - 01:39:23:11

Christopher Uhde

in these companies that are big growth stocks, that are massive valuations that can, you know, attract a lot of attention from retail investors who don't understand anything.

01:39:23:11 - 01:39:58:17

Christopher Uhde

Right. It will not work as well with companies that are, smaller or mid-sized. And, you know, it's there are gimmicks at the end of the day. Right? So, and then, you know, of course, different places have different styles, but, yeah, something like that would not, not be, well received by the, Nordic investment community, certainly in any company, that I can think of in the Nordics.

01:39:58:19 - 01:40:01:10

Christopher Uhde

Yeah.

01:40:01:12 - 01:40:03:03

Christian Soschner

So what's the what's the what's.

01:40:03:03 - 01:40:06:11

Christian Soschner

The expectation in the Nordics? When it comes to communication style, what's,

01:40:06:13 - 01:40:46:18

Christopher Uhde

I mean, they are relatively lower key, right? Yeah, it's, Yeah, it's it's, people, would see this kind of American, crassness, or brashness as, as, unappealing and kind of, showing a lack of, of seriousness and, and, yeah, I think they would see it as a red flag gently. And, you know, there are there are different flavors of that of, of, of America and styles of communication.

01:40:46:18 - 01:41:19:03

Christopher Uhde

And, you know, I'm American too, right? So, you know what you're talking about some very specific examples. So, so and you know, Swedes are also different. And so some are, we'll find certain things, more irritating, than others. I have never talked to anybody about the Elon Musk, sync story. So, yeah, I don't know what they thought about that, but, you know, people talk a lot.

01:41:19:03 - 01:41:41:02

Christian Soschner

So I think the interesting thing with communication is, that people tend to copy, their idols and, when they look on social media these days, I mean, X is full with Elon Musk quotes. LinkedIn is more on Jensen Huang, Jeff Bezos, and people just tend to copy what they see online. And at the end of the day, your advice is always know your market, not know to whom you're going to sell.

01:41:41:02 - 01:41:46:08

Christian Soschner

And, adopt the appropriate communication style that fits with your audience.

01:41:46:10 - 01:42:05:22

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. I mean, you have to take it well into consideration then, you know, you have to be true to yourself to some extent. But, hopefully being true to yourself also means, you know, that you spend a certain amount of time doing honest, introspection.

01:42:05:24 - 01:42:07:22

Christian Soschner

That's a good point. That's an important point.

01:42:08:23 - 01:42:19:20

Christian Soschner

I think many companies might be motivated now to do an IPO and hear a lot of about this aspiration. And we're coming out of, of the Valley also in pharma, the market is soaring.

01:42:19:22 - 01:42:22:23

Christian Soschner

And I assume that,

01:42:22:23 - 01:42:25:20

Christian Soschner

You also have to turn down opportunities.

01:42:25:22 - 01:42:26:14

Christian Soschner

What are your.

01:42:26:14 - 01:42:44:19

Christian Soschner

Criteria to assess whether a company is fit for an IPO? Because, I mean, at the end of the day, also, your bank lives from success stories, so it doesn't really help, to create one for your story after the other. You need the success of the data to perfectly perform that IPO and get a good valuation. What are your criteria to assess a company now?

01:42:44:20 - 01:43:02:20

Christopher Uhde

And that's, it's actually one of the things I really love about working at CB is that, we we really care about working with quality companies, and we want long term relationships, with the companies that we work with. We're not after doing just the quick deal and that's, you know, then. Oh, nice. If they come back.

01:43:02:20 - 01:43:32:14

Christopher Uhde

But, you know, we just want to get as much out of this deal as we can. That's not us at all. And it kind of goes back to, I mean, our founding that it's, in in the. Yeah, 1860s, by by one of the boundaries. Oscar. Oscar. Mark. And and, it's, you know, so, so I think what, what do we look for is maybe a little different than maybe some of our competitors are always looking for it, inevitably, being a different organization.

01:43:32:14 - 01:44:16:12

Christopher Uhde

But I think for us, it's, you know, at the end of the day, it's very individual with respect to the equity story. Right? What what kind of a company is ready to go public or not? I think in general, it's nice to see, one project that's phase three ready. But a variety of factors can make that more or less important, including, for example, the extent to which the mechanism of action has been validated or how well understood the molecule is, the size of the portfolio, that you have, and and of course, there it's important that people feel that you have the bandwidth to manage whatever size of portfolio

01:44:16:12 - 01:44:47:12

Christopher Uhde

you have. They want to make sure that you are focused enough. I think, yeah. And then and then, of course, the expected time and the capital required to get to the market, and obviously the team's track record and the ownership, it's, you know, for a company like a biotech that, you know, is going to need to raise capital time and again, you want to see owners who are, you know, you committed to investing in it again.

01:44:47:14 - 01:45:16:05

Christopher Uhde

In the future. And, and also who are willing to support it in the sense that they're happy to leave some value on the table for others. Yeah. I mean, especially I think it's probably especially difficult for, generalist investors to to kind of appreciate how important that is. If they're in if they own a company like this early on.

01:45:16:07 - 01:45:40:18

Christopher Uhde

But but for sure, there are, plenty of VCs who, could, could do with, a reminder as well. And, and then I think, you know, good news flow. Right. That's really important to, to retain investor attention and hence, you know, support the share price, up until the next, major inflection, yeah.

01:45:40:18 - 01:46:04:16

Christopher Uhde

So, so and then, of course, you know, it goes about saying, really, but, the prevailing market conditions. Right. Are, are always something that have to be taken into consideration. Yeah. On the other hand, I think, yeah, it's it's, you know, what do we look for when we're assessing whether a company is ready to go public?

01:46:04:16 - 01:46:20:13

Christopher Uhde

Right. It's pretty straightforward and uniform with respect to sort of the financial regulations and on a regulated market, right, due diligence, full audit prospectus, meeting regulatory compliance in general, that stuff. Yeah.

01:46:20:15 - 01:46:22:18

Christian Soschner

Yeah, a lot, a lot, a lot of work to, to.

01:46:22:20 - 01:46:23:07

Christian Soschner

Look because.

01:46:23:10 - 01:46:24:08

Christian Soschner

At the end of the day.

01:46:24:10 - 01:46:26:22

Christian Soschner

And let's look a bit.

01:46:26:22 - 01:46:31:16

Christian Soschner

Ahead, in the last 15 minutes, time flies or time flies.

01:46:31:18 - 01:46:33:06

Christian Soschner

I think, let's look.

01:46:33:06 - 01:46:39:09

Christian Soschner

Ahead into the future. I mean, we had, you called it pharma winter. Biopharma winter.

01:46:39:11 - 01:46:42:12

Christian Soschner

Yeah. How to what what is your bank's.

01:46:42:12 - 01:46:52:17

Christian Soschner

Estimation looking in into the next five years? How do you see the biopharma sector in Europe evolve and develop? If you can look into your crystal ball?

01:46:52:17 - 01:47:22:06

Christopher Uhde

Well, look, I think we've, you know, we've come out of, we've come out of a very, we're still coming out of a very, very tough period. But usually that means that, we're we're likely to be ready for, for some good things. Right? And, barring some, you know, near term shock, that would set things back for another six months or or a year.

01:47:22:06 - 01:48:00:13

Christopher Uhde

Right. But, there's, there's appetite. Now, at the end of the day, rates are coming down. And as long as, policymaker orders don't make any big, mistakes on monetary policy, I think that's going to be the, the, the main factor here that drives, you know, a rejuvenation of, of the industry by, by increasing investment on both on the, the public side and, and of course, on the private side, we've seen it already that the VCs are increasingly raising a lot of money and we're seeing mega rounds and so on.

01:48:00:13 - 01:48:33:11

Christopher Uhde

So I think that's Yeah. Then does it last for five years? Hopefully we'll see harder. It harder to say, yeah. I think, it depends on how, loose we are with, with money again. And I guess the good thing here, of course, is that at this point, people who have been in the industry for a little while will know that, it's really important to be, prudent with spending, yeah.

01:48:33:13 - 01:48:37:03

Christopher Uhde

So hopefully won't be won't be too profligate.

01:48:37:05 - 01:48:39:09

Christian Soschner

Now, you never know when the market condition change.

01:48:39:11 - 01:48:41:07

Christian Soschner

Check back again. Yeah.

01:48:41:07 - 01:48:59:23

Christian Soschner

2022, 2021 was a stark reminder to that, looking at, the European biotech sector and compare it with the US and, China and also, I mean, what Saudi Arabia is doing is pretty amazing. This is, this is an ecosystem, on the move. I heard that, a lot of funds are set up.

01:48:59:23 - 01:49:06:17

Christian Soschner

I've heard of trillion dollar investments in, in Saudi Arabia. Not only in biotech but also in other areas.

01:49:06:19 - 01:49:09:00

Christian Soschner

Yeah. How can we.

01:49:09:00 - 01:49:16:01

Christian Soschner

Position, in your opinion, the European biotech sector in this global game? I mean, it's it's been the global game in my opinion.

01:49:16:03 - 01:49:16:11

Christopher Uhde

Oh,

01:49:16:11 - 01:49:56:06

Christopher Uhde

yeah. Oh, yeah. Of course. Well, that that being said, I think what's happening in China right now illustrates the, the challenges of, top down, leadership of the economy. And that is sure to be a, factor at play in Saudi Arabia. And so I think you'll have investors who, you know, global investors who who realize that, and will be looking for kind of more, sort of stable, stable environments.

01:49:56:08 - 01:50:22:09

Christopher Uhde

It'll be it'll be a balance. Right? At the end of the day, people will follow the money. The money will create some opportunities, obviously, that that wouldn't be otherwise. And, so, yeah, Europe will have to, to, to kind of. Yeah, live with that and work around it. But again, it's, you know, more money usually means that there's, more opportunities everywhere.

01:50:22:11 - 01:50:41:14

Christopher Uhde

And I don't think that's going to be different for Europe. You know, that they would for some reason be excluded. It's just about, you know, making sure that we, we invest in, in, in good things as much as possible. And, that's the game everyone's playing at. At the end of the day, the sector is growing.

01:50:41:14 - 01:50:58:16

Christopher Uhde

It's just that it hasn't grown as quickly as in some other places. And that growth fuels new growth and, and hopefully, well, yeah, I mean, at least we're starting from a smaller base, like, we started off, with the in this discussion.

01:50:58:18 - 01:51:19:06

Christian Soschner

Yeah. 2020 was also an outlier. Time for for for biopharma. With with the sudden pandemic and, some inflow of capital into the area. You mentioned before this, top down leadership. I mean, when you look back at the the prosperity of the last 30 years, my personal interpretation is that one of the contributing factor was globalization.

01:51:19:08 - 01:51:22:03

Christian Soschner

And arada a loose.

01:51:22:03 - 01:51:26:09

Christian Soschner

Policy towards the economy. Let's just let them do the things.

01:51:26:11 - 01:51:27:15

Christian Soschner

And,

01:51:27:17 - 01:51:29:11

Christian Soschner

In a dynamic and open global.

01:51:29:11 - 01:51:30:16

Christian Soschner

World, the.

01:51:30:16 - 01:51:38:13

Christian Soschner

Self-Organization can happen very quickly on the private sector when there is all the, the, little regulation and you mentioned before that we.

01:51:38:13 - 01:51:39:12

Christian Soschner

Have now.

01:51:39:14 - 01:51:47:21

Christian Soschner

What it looks like, the revival of top down leadership, like in China or Saudi Arabia, which is pretty amazing because when I look in history.

01:51:48:13 - 01:51:58:06

Christian Soschner

Every time we tried to design something top down, it doesn't it hasn't seem it hasn't looked like it can survive for a very long time.

01:51:59:03 - 01:52:17:07

Christian Soschner

But we look at these two different, approaches. Now, we have Trump in the United States, which seem to be more a little bit, respecting private freedom and more privacy rights. We have, but also very, very successful model in China, which, I mean, China is not a developing country anymore all the time. When you look at the big cities, it's doing extremely well.

01:52:17:12 - 01:52:19:08

Christian Soschner

Where do you see the balance here to stay?

01:52:19:08 - 01:52:45:11

Christopher Uhde

Right. You know. Yeah. I don't mean to sound, glib. I just, yeah, it's more that, you know, there's, a place for a lot of different models out there. At the end of the day, when you have a lot of people with ideas, as long as they get to, a chance to, to execute on those ideas, there's opportunity in, in many places.

01:52:45:13 - 01:53:14:17

Christopher Uhde

And, and that's. Yeah. Not going to, going to, to to change. So then I think, you know, all of them have have something to offer. And yeah, you know, the US obviously has some, some great core strengths that, are the envy of the world. And, certainly from a markets perspective. And, so I think they will continue to be a leader and or the leader in biotech.

01:53:14:19 - 01:53:52:15

Christopher Uhde

And then, you know, we'll probably be a little bit more, Uncertain, in, in, in China and, and that, of course, means that, the risk in biotech is going to be higher. You know, they, they've been smart in that they are trying to build an industry and they do it by, replicating what we do, in the West, that the mechanisms are typically copy metas and the market is designed to allow that.

01:53:52:15 - 01:54:13:00

Christopher Uhde

Right. When you look at what's gotten super exciting, all these things are coming out of China. Well, the GLP, oral GLP ones. Yeah, they weren't discovered in China I o 2.0. I obviously by specifics, right? I mean all those mechanisms are from somewhere else. They just decided that it makes sense to give it a go at putting them on the same molecule.

01:54:13:00 - 01:54:43:04

Christopher Uhde

And lo and behold, that works amazingly. But the underlying kind of work in that was was done elsewhere. So I think to me, the question is, you know, what? Will they be able to find a new leg where they really start to invent, you know, new science, rather than, finding a way to execute extremely, extremely well on things that have been done elsewhere.

01:54:43:06 - 01:54:55:08

Christian Soschner

Now with quantum entrepreneurs to wrap it up in the last four minutes, it means, that's the world now is global. It's open. They can go anywhere they want, even to China. Saudi Arabia, it's easy, it's accessible, it's marketed on the internet.

01:54:55:13 - 01:54:59:04

Christian Soschner

But how would you position, Europe.

01:54:59:04 - 01:55:04:19

Christian Soschner

For entrepreneurs and investors? Why should they stay and invest in Europe?

01:55:04:21 - 01:55:15:10

Christopher Uhde

Yeah, because at the end of the day, we have fantastic science. And we have, people who have been doing it with increasing success,

01:55:15:10 - 01:55:50:18

Christopher Uhde

already. And, it's we have, you know, investor pools that are, increasingly welcome to biotech cycle cyclical, aspects aside. Right. And I think, you know, the Nordics is, is is really well positioned in that, I mean, they've been punching above their weight in biopharma, and helped by the Stockholm public equities market in particular, and to some extent, they spin out incentives for researchers.

01:55:50:20 - 01:56:00:02

Christopher Uhde

So I think we're, you know, we're at a place where we're actually starting to see more platform companies emerge in the Nordics as well. Right. Which is really exciting. Sorry.

01:56:00:04 - 01:56:02:01

Christian Soschner

No, it's cool because it's quite potential.

01:56:02:01 - 01:56:03:21

Christian Soschner

It's, exactly.

01:56:03:23 - 01:56:04:06

Christopher Uhde

And,

01:56:04:06 - 01:56:35:23

Christopher Uhde

and I think then, yeah. So, so I mean, the, actually, we're, we're even starting to see increasing interest from non Swedish domiciled companies and not even just that, but but non non-listed Nordic companies. I guess for the past several years we've, we've been getting into the before the downturn more interest from, from non Nordic companies in listing in, in the Nordics and it's seems to be coming coming back.

01:56:35:23 - 01:56:53:11

Christopher Uhde

So I think that's, you know, it's, it's also probably more achievable, in the near to medium term to, to succeed at doing that, which would be really interesting to see. A sort of, financial capital for Europe emerge. Yeah. Yeah.

01:56:53:17 - 01:56:55:10

Christian Soschner

So and I think.

01:56:55:10 - 01:56:56:20

Christian Soschner

It would be a good thing for Europe to.

01:56:56:20 - 01:56:57:23

Christian Soschner

Have, more.

01:56:57:23 - 01:57:00:05

Christian Soschner

Integrated structure across Europe where people.

01:57:00:08 - 01:57:01:19

Christopher Uhde

Absolutely.

01:57:01:21 - 01:57:02:07

Christian Soschner

My final.

01:57:02:07 - 01:57:12:08

Christian Soschner

Two questions in the last two minutes. Let me first start with the first one. How do you see your role and your bank's role in shaping the future of biotech in the coming years?

01:57:12:10 - 01:57:37:19

Christopher Uhde

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's easy to start with the bank, perspective here, which is that because it's, obviously a more impactful player as a whole. And our sort of our, our mantra is that we, we, want to shape the world positively through responsible deployment of advice and capital, you know, today and for generations to come.

01:57:37:19 - 01:58:23:00

Christopher Uhde

That's the ECB mantra. And, so sustainability is a big part of that. And innovation is a big part of that. And, I think that's, that's why we're, very focused on for, for, you know, bio biopharma is, is a core area of focus for us. And, so I think, you know, our track record gives us the platform, to be able to help companies, get to a point where they can generate the kinds of returns that the biotech is supposed to, to, give back.

01:58:23:02 - 01:59:07:24

Christopher Uhde

And then, you know, my role specifically. Well, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm having a lot of fun seeing a lot of of, great science and, and medicine and, I look forward to continuing to get that exposure and being able to promote it to, to investors to give them ideas about, you know, what will generate them returns and, to help companies, you know, meet the investors, but also kind of give them guidance on at least, you know, what I see is as, you know, interesting scientific avenues for exploration, and, and, you know, important things to think about when it comes to, talking to the markets

01:59:07:24 - 01:59:17:15

Christopher Uhde

and, and, yeah. So that's, I guess how I, I hope to see things, continue to go in the future.

01:59:17:17 - 01:59:20:11

Christian Soschner

Any question, for, those type.

01:59:20:11 - 01:59:29:09

Christian Soschner

Of listeners who judge the book by the cover and start with looking at the first five minutes and the last five minutes and just skip to the energy. In no way I'm going to listen for two hours.

01:59:29:11 - 01:59:30:17

Christian Soschner

What what is the one.

01:59:30:17 - 01:59:35:09

Christian Soschner

Key takeaway you want the listeners to remember from this conversation?

01:59:35:11 - 02:00:05:09

Christopher Uhde

No, I mean, I think it would be that, you know, Europe, Europe is, has a fantastic base of things, of science and medicine to offer, and a fantastic talent base that, is definitely under appreciated. And, you know, poised, I think, as an ecosystem to, to, to, to expand, quite quickly in the coming, years.

02:00:05:09 - 02:00:21:20

Christopher Uhde

Now with, as we emerge from, from this, winter, so, so, and I'm looking forward to seeing how the, Nordics and, and sub in particular can contribute to, to doing to, to helping that,

02:00:21:22 - 02:00:23:20

Christian Soschner

Blue Christopher.

02:00:23:23 - 02:00:33:10

Christian Soschner

Thank you very much for this engaging conversation and your positive words. It's good to get a positive spin again on the end of the winter and looking forward into spring.

02:00:33:12 - 02:00:34:01

Christian Soschner

Let's stay in.

02:00:34:01 - 02:00:36:05

Christian Soschner

Touch and let's, see, in a year or so.

02:00:36:11 - 02:00:38:24

Christian Soschner

How the ecosystem developed and evolved.

02:00:39:01 - 02:00:42:20

Christopher Uhde

Thank you very much for inviting me to be here. It was great pleasure.

02:00:42:22 - 02:00:45:19

Christian Soschner

It was a great pleasure for me to have a great afternoon. See you soon.

02:00:45:19 - 02:00:49:02

Christian Soschner

Bye bye.

02:00:49:02 - 02:00:55:21

Christian Soschner

Biotech isn't just about breakthrough science, it's about strategy. Trust and long term vision.

02:00:55:21 - 02:01:17:12

Christian Soschner

Today, Christopher Alder showed us why valuations aren't about science alone, why the right investors met the market in timing, and why companies that communicate well, then in the long run. The biotech market is unpredictable. IPOs rise and fall. Investors shift focus.

02:01:17:14 - 02:01:27:19

Christian Soschner

But the companies that thrive, they plan ahead. They raise capital before they need it. They build trust, not just hype.

02:01:27:19 - 02:01:48:17

Christian Soschner

If this episode gave you insight, inspiration or a new perspective, here is how you can help. Subscribe, like and leave a comment. It's a small token of appreciation, but it has a huge ripple effect. Every subscription, every comment and every share helps grow the show.

02:01:48:19 - 02:02:01:12

Christian Soschner

It brings in more top tier guests, deeper insights and the conversations that help you stay ahead. Right now, we are in the global top 10%. Let's push for the top 1% together.

02:02:01:12 - 02:02:08:23

Christian Soschner

The future of biotech belongs to those who prepare, those who adapt, and those who never stop learning.

02:02:08:23 - 02:02:15:01

Christian Soschner

Keep questioning, keep building, and keep pushing forward. See you in the next episode.

02:02:15:03 - 02:02:20:18

Christian Soschner

Until then, stay bold. Stay curious and hit that subscribe button.