EP 154 - Kristina Levan: Why Life-Saving Therapies Aren’t Reaching Patients—And How to Fix It

ATMPs, gene therapies, and cancer breakthroughs are here—but outdated regulations, high costs, and logistical bottlenecks are blocking access. What needs to change for hospitals to deliver these cures to patients who need them most?

💡 Here’s the harsh reality:

• Patients are waiting, but hospitals aren’t ready.
• The science exists, but regulations haven’t caught up.
• The treatments work, but they’re too expensive to scale.

So what’s the solution? And who’s taking action?

📌 In this episode, Kristina Levan—ATMP innovation leader and biotech strategist—breaks down the challenges and opportunities shaping the future of advanced therapies.

🎧 Watch now to learn:
1️⃣ How gene therapy is curing blindness—and why it almost didn’t happen.
2️⃣ The biggest bottleneck preventing hospitals from offering life-saving treatments.
3️⃣ How AI and automation could unlock personalized medicine for everyone.
4️⃣ The real reason ATMPs are so expensive—and what must change.
5️⃣ Why healthcare leaders, policymakers, and investors must rethink how we manufacture cures.

👤 About Kristina Levan:
Kristina Levan has spent years at the cutting edge of cancer research, clinical trials, and ATMP development. She’s helped shape Sweden’s national ATMP strategy, connecting industry, healthcare, and academia to push these breakthroughs forward. Now, she’s tackling the next big challenge—getting these treatments to patients faster.

💡 Quotes to Challenge Your Thinking:
(00:12:05) "ATMPs don’t just treat symptoms—they have the power to cure diseases."
(00:23:36) "Gene therapy is giving children a future—restoring sight and transforming their lives forever."
(01:27:52) "Imagine a future where hospitals create customized gene therapies on-site for every patient."
(01:43:13) "ATMPs could transform lives by treating the untreatable."
(01:45:42) "If we can cure early, we don’t just save lives—we reshape them."

Timestamps:
(00:05:32) How ATMPs Will Reshape Global Healthcare
(00:13:54) CAR-T Therapy: The Next Cancer Treatment Revolution
(00:23:36) Gene Therapy Restores Sight—The Future of Medicine?
(00:28:33) AI-Powered Therapies: Can Hospitals Manufacture Cures?
(00:37:55) Why Cutting-Edge ATMPs Struggle to Reach Patients
(00:53:36) Personalized Medicine & Real-Time Health Monitoring
(01:09:02) From Research to Reality: Scaling ATMP Treatments
(01:12:54) The True Cost of ATMPs—Can We Afford Innovation?
(01:27:15) Cell Therapy Manufacturing: The Next Big Disruption
(01:33:03) AI & Automation in Healthcare: What’s Next?

🔔 Help Us Grow

If this episode gave you insight, inspiration, or a new perspective—here’s how you can help:

📢 Hit SUBSCRIBE, like, and leave a comment. It’s a small action, but it has a huge ripple effect. Every engagement helps us bring in bigger guests, deeper insights, and more industry-changing conversations.

Right now, we’re in the global top 10%—let’s push for the top 1% together.

🎧 Watch now and be part of the conversation shaping the future of medicine. 🚀

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:20:19

Christian Soschner

Right now, medicine is more advanced than ever. Gene therapy can restore sight to the blind. Attempts can cure a deadly disease. But here's the problem most patients will never get them. Why?

00:00:20:19 - 00:00:42:20

Christian Soschner

Imagine a child born blind suddenly seeing for the first time, a cancer patient given months to live. Suddenly cured. The science works. But hospitals, regulations and outdated systems are blocking access.

00:00:42:20 - 00:00:49:13

Christian Soschner

If we don't fix this, the most life changing therapies will stay out of reach.

00:00:49:13 - 00:00:56:24

Kristina Levan

can treat the kids, they can can keep their sight and they can keep their sensitivity

00:00:57:03 - 00:01:21:17

Christian Soschner

The real problem isn't the science. It's the infrastructure. How do we make these treatments affordable, scalable, and accessible to everyone? Artificial intelligence, automation and new production models could change everything. But the big question is, will the system adapt fast enough?

00:01:21:17 - 00:01:27:06

Kristina Levan

it be possible to build these, infrastructures and manufacturing,

00:01:27:06 - 00:01:29:23

Kristina Levan

laboratories within the hospitals?

00:01:30:01 - 00:01:39:03

Christian Soschner

Today's speaker, Christina Lieven, has spent years in the cutting edge of cancer research, clinical trials and attempts. Development

00:01:39:03 - 00:01:49:23

Christian Soschner

She helped shape Sweden's national ATM strategy, connecting industry, healthcare and academia. To push these breakthroughs forward.

00:01:49:23 - 00:01:56:18

Christian Soschner

Now she's tackling the next big challenge. Getting these treatments to patients faster.

00:01:56:18 - 00:01:58:22

Kristina Levan

that is probably what we need,

00:01:58:22 - 00:02:03:08

Kristina Levan

closed systems that are managing themselves.

00:02:03:08 - 00:02:04:17

Kristina Levan

Would be,

00:02:04:17 - 00:02:05:08

Kristina Levan

useful

00:02:05:11 - 00:02:21:00

Christian Soschner

What if hospitals could manufacture medicine on site? What if cures could be tailored in real time to every patient? This isn't science fiction. It's the future of medicine. And it's closer than you think.

00:02:21:03 - 00:02:47:08

Christian Soschner

The best conversations happen when the right people come together. And that's where you come in. Every photo, every comment and every single share makes this podcast more visible. The more engagement we get, the bigger the guests, the deeper the insights and the more industry changing ideas we can bring you. If you want to see more conversations like this, help the show grow.

00:02:47:10 - 00:02:49:21

Christian Soschner

Let's build something incredible together.

00:02:49:21 - 00:03:05:18

Christian Soschner

This episode today is for CEOs, policymakers, and investors who want to understand the future of health care. If you care about innovation, access, and the next medical revolution, you don't want to miss this. Start listening now.

00:03:05:18 - 00:03:11:22

Christian Soschner

Christina, it's so good to see you. And, from which city are you calling?

00:03:11:24 - 00:03:17:23

Kristina Levan

I'm calling from a little village outside of Gothenburg in Sweden, on the west coast of Sweden.

00:03:18:00 - 00:03:20:07

Christian Soschner

Oh, wee little village. What's the name of the village?

00:03:20:09 - 00:03:29:19

Kristina Levan

It's called Bo liberated, for I know it's got something quite close to the airport. To the Gothenburg airport. Lumberton.

00:03:29:21 - 00:03:36:20

Christian Soschner

Yeah, that's very. That's very comfortable. I always thought Swedish is is close to charming to our language. It's just.

00:03:36:23 - 00:03:49:20

Kristina Levan

Yeah, I think it is for fair. We see a lot of similar words, but I think the grammar isn't, the same. I think so it's difficult to understand German for us.

00:03:49:22 - 00:03:53:12

Christian Soschner

Do you understand German when you hear it at PIOs, for example?

00:03:53:14 - 00:04:03:05

Kristina Levan

No, no. Not really. No. Maybe some words, but not, not the full sort of back sentences. No.

00:04:03:07 - 00:04:05:17

Christian Soschner

Yes. Learning Swedish is on my list. So maybe next year.

00:04:05:19 - 00:04:07:14

Kristina Levan

I read.

00:04:07:16 - 00:04:10:18

Christian Soschner

I think it's interesting to. It's still. It's the land of the Vikings.

00:04:10:20 - 00:04:11:01

Kristina Levan

Yeah.

00:04:11:01 - 00:04:21:04

Christian Soschner

And since I saw the series, I think it started in 2014 and, stopped on Netflix two years ago or something. And Vikings are quite impressive.

00:04:21:06 - 00:04:27:16

Kristina Levan

I haven't seen that show, actually, so maybe I should. Have you been to Sweden before?

00:04:27:18 - 00:04:29:05

Christian Soschner

Expired last time? Was.

00:04:29:09 - 00:04:31:22

Kristina Levan

Yeah. By your podcast about Europe?

00:04:31:22 - 00:04:40:23

Christian Soschner

Yeah. I was impressed by the dimensions. So there was it was a really long drive from the airport to the city.

00:04:41:00 - 00:04:44:19

Kristina Levan

Yeah. Did you, did you, rent a car or did you go by train?

00:04:44:23 - 00:04:45:24

Christian Soschner

Cab or cab?

00:04:46:01 - 00:04:53:08

Kristina Levan

Taxi? Okay. Yeah. Because I think, I think it's the easiest way is by train. Oh, really? Yeah.

00:04:53:10 - 00:05:01:15

Christian Soschner

Yeah, I just hopped on a taxi and it was 80km. If I think if I remember it right. And it was a really beautiful. It reminded me of Canada.

00:05:01:17 - 00:05:07:17

Kristina Levan

Yes. Yes. I think there are many similarities, from student to Canada. Yeah.

00:05:07:19 - 00:05:29:03

Christian Soschner

Bio Europe is a great starting point for our conversation. It's where we met. You had a speech about ATM P and, sorry to say so, but I always think about 1020 here at and p. So it's, I think this was the tennis league back then. Yeah, 30 years ago. And I'm really happy that we can have this conversation today.

00:05:29:03 - 00:05:38:11

Christian Soschner

Let's start the conversation with, the free core messages that you want the listeners to take away from today's conversation.

00:05:38:13 - 00:05:39:11

Kristina Levan

Yeah. So,

00:05:39:11 - 00:06:04:16

Kristina Levan

what I would like to the listeners to take away, take it with them, is to, to have a little bit more awareness, of course, about ATP and, what they are and what they can do. And, also, I would like to also bring some focus to the, role of the hospitals when it comes to the innovation process.

00:06:04:18 - 00:06:21:18

Kristina Levan

I hope we can talk a little bit about that. And, I think also one message that I think is important is, the need of collaboration, both of, of different professions, but also different stakeholders, to make success.

00:06:21:24 - 00:06:38:22

Christian Soschner

Partner to have taken some not to focus my questions on these three parts or so or so. Maybe we can start for business people like me who have zero understanding of life science and and research. Maybe we can start with the basics and, define what ATP is. It's not the tennis league.

00:06:38:22 - 00:06:40:21

Kristina Levan

So now it's not a tennis.

00:06:40:21 - 00:07:18:02

Kristina Levan

It's, medicinal product. So, ATP stands for advanced therapy medicinal products. And, and it's, new category, of innovative, medical treatments that are based on cells and genes and tissues or tissues. You might say. So they are designed to treat or prevent diseases. So you can they can offer more like, new options, for conditions that, didn't have any, treatments available before.

00:07:18:04 - 00:07:53:13

Kristina Levan

There are different types. So you have the gene therapy, that are that uses that genetic, material. And they will modify or replace, voltages as, genes that, does not function. Then we have the somatic cell therapy, which uses the cells and, they can manipulate cells that are, then used to, repair or replace or regenerate, deceased tissues or cells in the, in the body.

00:07:53:17 - 00:08:00:14

Kristina Levan

And then the more, maybe more complex. I'm not sure if it's more complex, but it's more the made tissue engineered

00:08:00:14 - 00:08:04:11

Kristina Levan

products. So you can replace, you can

00:08:04:11 - 00:08:17:13

Kristina Levan

use cells or tissues that are modified to replace or repair, damaged, tissue or structures in the body. And these therapies are very highly regulated and they are very complex.

00:08:17:13 - 00:08:30:11

Kristina Levan

And, there are some potential risks and, ethical considerations, but they have a also a great promise of, of, success when it comes to efficient treatments.

00:08:30:18 - 00:08:39:04

Christian Soschner

That's good. I see that you also invited a guest, to join our show. It's, in the background, I think, if you have a cat.

00:08:39:06 - 00:08:42:04

Kristina Levan

It's Siggi stinky. Yes.

00:08:42:06 - 00:08:43:09

Christian Soschner

It's a he.

00:08:43:11 - 00:08:46:17

Kristina Levan

It's a he. Yeah. I see you can see him. Yeah.

00:08:46:17 - 00:08:49:11

Christian Soschner

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I have two cats myself, so.

00:08:49:11 - 00:08:50:11

Kristina Levan

I mean, you do.

00:08:50:13 - 00:09:00:11

Christian Soschner

Yeah. Yeah, I programed two cats. So it was just. I think you and I, I'm not sure if it was lying. The other just walked in part while you were speaking. Looking around.

00:09:00:13 - 00:09:05:10

Kristina Levan

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He's a Siberian cat. Oh, really?

00:09:05:12 - 00:09:09:04

Christian Soschner

That's a is he is. He likes to go outdoors.

00:09:09:06 - 00:09:23:04

Kristina Levan

No, actually not the I think, that's maybe the more normal thing because we are also living in the countryside, so. Yeah, we were we were just scared that he would be hit by the train or the car is running by.

00:09:23:04 - 00:09:27:05

Christian Soschner

So it must be pretty cold in Sweden in winter, I guess.

00:09:27:07 - 00:09:34:08

Kristina Levan

Yeah. Sometimes it's very cold, but at the moment I think we have 4 or 5 degrees. So.

00:09:34:10 - 00:09:44:00

Christian Soschner

Same. So better than in Vietnam. Thank you. Let's let's go back to ATP. How is the landscape in Sweden evolved in the last decade in this area?

00:09:44:00 - 00:10:19:18

Kristina Levan

So I think in Sweden, we have had, quite the, dramatic development in a positive way. We have had, a lot of focus, on, trying to build, ecosystem and innovation system in Sweden that could support the development of ATP. So what we have seen lately is that, before there were just, you know, the, the, small community, working with ATP that were aware of what it actually is and what it could be instead of them.

00:10:19:20 - 00:11:04:18

Kristina Levan

What could be the use for the society? But now we see that we have a lot of, decision makers that are aware of ATP, and we can see that the government also included it in the and new National Life Science Strategy, or the updated one that they presented in November last year. So, this is and this is of course very important because, in order to make the changes that we think are needed, in, policies and, the introduction and how to handle the product when, when they're actually approved, but also, supporting the, the innovations and the transition from the pre-clinical to a commercialized product.

00:11:04:18 - 00:11:19:16

Kristina Levan

This it's very important with the funding from the government as well. So we see that we have a growing, a growing community and a growing awareness, in Sweden, the last couple of years, a big change.

00:11:20:00 - 00:11:42:01

Christian Soschner

It's good to hear that the government is supporting the development and is putting also some money on the table, but you see the development very important to get some funds. When we go back to ATM and cover, then the policy side and policymaker side a little bit later in the conversation. Why are they so revolutionary in health care?

00:11:42:04 - 00:12:10:20

Kristina Levan

So, one of the things with the ATP is that they don't only treat, the symptoms, but they can actually cure patients. And we see that they have the potential of, treating, different, indications and conditions that has not been, able to, or did not have any available treatment before.

00:12:10:22 - 00:12:35:09

Kristina Levan

So this is, of course, a game changer that you can see that we now have products that can do so different things that we were able to do before. And and what we see is that they are also, asking a lot from the health care. So they are very complex and they need to be handled sometimes in a very specific and complex way.

00:12:35:11 - 00:13:10:24

Kristina Levan

And, the administration and side effects can also sometimes be, something that you need to be prepared for and you have to have, readiness level within the hospitals to be able to handle that. So what we think in Sweden is that it's and I think in general, people working in the health care is that we need to, to, to do, different, activities and start working with the questions that will be, that we, we have to handle, in a few years.

00:13:11:01 - 00:13:33:16

Kristina Levan

So what we do in Sweden is a lot of preparation and, increasing the readiness level within the health care and with personnel training. And we need to, build specific infrastructures that, we might already have, but we need to to to, have have, large share of more resources.

00:13:33:16 - 00:14:00:15

Christian Soschner

It's great. I think for me, it's an, abstract term. And, when we talk about the science behind it, it's usually for me, not so much tangible. Do you have a real life example or something that is in development, a case study that we can work through to help the listener to understand, what treatments are currently available on the market and how they work and, what benefits they create for patients.

00:14:00:17 - 00:14:00:23

Kristina Levan

So

00:14:00:23 - 00:14:31:07

Kristina Levan

there is, and so we have different examples, but one example that we can maybe talk a little bit about is the, the Car-T cell therapy. People might have heard about that. And, this is a groundbreaking gene therapy. And, it, it approach. So now now you use them to treat different types of blood cancers, such as, I, acute lymphoblastic leukemia, leukemia, for example.

00:14:31:09 - 00:14:59:19

Kristina Levan

And, this right now, the products are used only for the, well, the patients that do not sort of respond to any other treatment. But we hope that this, treatment can be moved a little bit, earlier on in the treatment, to get even better effects. But, it works as you have to take the T cells, from the blood from the patient.

00:14:59:21 - 00:15:29:13

Kristina Levan

So this is the starting point. So you take the the T cells or the blood from the, from the patient and collect the T cells. And this is actually the starting material for the, for the product. And, and this needs to be handled in a very specific way. And you need to have specific, licensing and, and and also training from the company and follow the routine that they are that the, that follows the product.

00:15:29:13 - 00:16:07:15

Kristina Levan

So just to say so and the product is, or the blood is collected and the T cells are, are then sent to the company that will, take care of, genetic changes, in the, in the cells. And what they do is that they introduce, a gene to, so that the cells can express a specific type of receptor that will then be used to, connect to the cancer cells and destroy them.

00:16:07:17 - 00:16:17:07

Kristina Levan

When when the product is done, administered to the patient. And really good effects from this.

00:16:17:07 - 00:16:25:19

Christian Soschner

Can be summarized. It's, that it's basically training the whole immune system of the patient to attack the cancer cells. So it's.

00:16:25:21 - 00:16:33:06

Kristina Levan

It's exactly. Yeah. So they will identify the cancer cells and be more specific when they and do their work. So to say, yeah.

00:16:33:08 - 00:16:38:23

Christian Soschner

Is this something in development or is there already therapy be approved by the FDA or the EMA.

00:16:39:00 - 00:16:59:08

Kristina Levan

Yeah. So this we have I think, in Sweden we use for Car-T products that are approved by the EMA, but also by and the Swedish authorities to be, introduced within the Swedish health care with universal assent, reimbursement and everything.

00:16:59:10 - 00:17:18:05

Christian Soschner

And I was curious how to implement that in the health care system, because it's a two way system. And, everything else in the family industry always perceived as a one way system. You ship something to a hospital and then to the patient, you store it and then you give it the patient. But this card, this is a two way process.

00:17:18:05 - 00:17:37:17

Christian Soschner

So they need to extract at the hospital the special equipment for that, then ship it in time and drive fast to an external facility, a manufacturer, and they then ship the T cells back. Now, is this complicated to implement in European healthcare systems?

00:17:37:17 - 00:18:00:15

Kristina Levan

Yeah, it is complicated. Now, the I wasn't around when the first one was introduced. I just started working with AT&T just after. But but we can see that we now we are now more prepared than we were to begin with. But there are a lot of things that we need to have. We need to have specific accreditations in the hospital.

00:18:00:15 - 00:18:30:01

Kristina Levan

And we also need to have this specific, training from the companies, for their specific product. And, we also need to, if there are more patients that will be at treated, we also need to have more resources in the hospitals. And we see that it's also more complex when we have more products, because every product more or less have its own way.

00:18:30:03 - 00:18:31:16

Kristina Levan

Of, of

00:18:31:16 - 00:18:35:16

Kristina Levan

handling, which makes it very complex for the, for the

00:18:35:16 - 00:18:54:03

Kristina Levan

hospitals because you want to be able to give the patients sort of all these kinds of different quality products. But still, it will be very complicated for the hospital staff to be, aware of, exactly what where the differences in the handling, are and, and and so forth.

00:18:54:03 - 00:19:20:00

Kristina Levan

So I think, what we are also asking for from the hospital perspective is to be more standardized handling of the products. And there are also very many different types of, and documentation that follows the products. They need to be traceable. Since it's very, very sort of important that the right product comes back to the right patient.

00:19:20:02 - 00:19:57:24

Kristina Levan

And, and this also complicated a little bit for the hospitals, but, but we see that we have a really good contact with the companies, but, you know, they are global. So we have to have they have already maybe introduced the products, elsewhere. And they need the clinical trials in this specific, process. So we have to be, connected already early on with the clinical trials and in the connection when they are developing their products and, and doing all the, the research so that we can try to get more standardized and harmonized, protocols for the products.

00:19:57:24 - 00:20:02:23

Christian Soschner

This must be a lot of, training for the hospital staff, additional training for each product.

00:20:03:00 - 00:20:27:02

Kristina Levan

It's a lot of training and, and qualifications for the hospitals. So, it takes a lot of time. Now we see that we have a second product coming from the same company that is introduced. And we can see that that has been easier than, a new product from a different company because they are already have already qualified, their hospital, different parts.

00:20:27:02 - 00:20:28:02

Kristina Levan

Yeah.

00:20:28:04 - 00:20:36:18

Christian Soschner

What about the equipment in the hospital? Minnesota standards. Can this be done with standard equipment, or is that also something that needs to invest in.

00:20:36:20 - 00:20:37:00

Kristina Levan

So

00:20:37:00 - 00:21:02:23

Kristina Levan

now I think, I think that we do most of the things, but maybe not connected to each other. So this is also something that we see, in Sweden, we have introduced or established, something that we call centers, where, where we can try to, support the different functions in the hospital to be connected and to work together.

00:21:02:23 - 00:21:30:22

Kristina Levan

So and also to, to have the, the context, a lot of the contact with the companies to start before they need to have a contact with the lab and the clinicians, they can talk to us and we can try to facilitate and organize. So we will be more, maybe more efficient than maybe not as, as much as time consuming for the doctors and for the lab personnel.

00:21:30:24 - 00:21:54:23

Kristina Levan

But yeah, I think it's, it's, we are still training, and we also have, good contact, I think, with the companies and, and, organizations for the pharma, so that we can, raise the questions and discuss, what the companies think is complicated in contact with the hospitals and, and the other way, as well.

00:21:55:08 - 00:22:01:18

Christian Soschner

Now, it's amazing how oncology and also the hospitals evolved in the last 5 to 10 years, especially in oncology.

00:22:01:20 - 00:22:05:08

Kristina Levan

It's it's impressive. Yeah. I agree.

00:22:05:10 - 00:22:15:22

Christian Soschner

When we look, when we look at the developments in TMP, is there any recent developments or breakthroughs that excites you in this area?

00:22:15:24 - 00:22:16:04

Kristina Levan

I

00:22:16:04 - 00:23:05:17

Kristina Levan

think there are so many things happening, in attempts, I think that's, quite the difficult questions to answer because I think it's so exciting. All of it. You know, there are so many new things coming, but we see, we see some really, impressive, new therapies that are, treating conditions, rare mono genetic conditions for children, which of course, is very, it's wonderful to see that we can treat this, kids already early on and that they can have, totally different sort of development because of the, the, the gene therapy.

00:23:05:19 - 00:23:20:08

Kristina Levan

We also have this really, interesting example of that looks an eye, which is, therapy for in, inherited the,

00:23:20:08 - 00:23:26:12

Kristina Levan

blindness, which has also been I listened

00:23:26:12 - 00:23:42:03

Kristina Levan

to patients describe what they are, their experience when they are now, seeing light in a totally different way than they did before, so they can move around and see things that they haven't seen.

00:23:42:05 - 00:23:48:08

Kristina Levan

In, in years. And this is also something that is and progressing when you get older. So

00:23:48:08 - 00:23:56:06

Kristina Levan

if we can treat the kids, they can can keep their sight and they can keep their sensitivity to

00:23:56:06 - 00:24:06:22

Kristina Levan

light. So they say that they can. It's like a change from the night, from night to day because that they have, sort of that they can see the light again instead of just darkness.

00:24:06:22 - 00:24:07:10

Kristina Levan

So that's.

00:24:07:16 - 00:24:16:20

Christian Soschner

Great. This great. I mean, this is a lifetime ago. Okay. Give a kids back, a full lifetime of quality, a high quality lifetime.

00:24:16:20 - 00:24:19:00

Kristina Levan

Yeah, yeah.

00:24:19:02 - 00:24:42:13

Christian Soschner

This is amazing to hear. One question that I need to ask you. I mean, when, I open social media these days, I think everybody's excited about artificial intelligence. This week, China, put a new model on the market, and the Nasdaq plummeted. And immediately people screamed. So, it's over now. China's clapping, and the US is done.

00:24:42:15 - 00:24:45:00

Christian Soschner

It's a lot of emotion on on social media.

00:24:45:05 - 00:24:48:01

Kristina Levan

Have you tried it to the Chinese?

00:24:48:03 - 00:25:06:07

Christian Soschner

Well, no. No, I'm pretty happy with ChatGPT. I've spent two years with that model, and, they have made a lot of development, which I can use for my work to improve communication, to improve emails, to make the process around a podcast much easier. It works well. I'm happy with it.

00:25:06:07 - 00:25:12:01

Kristina Levan

So now I'm mostly using ChatGPT. So I think I. I agree with you. I haven't tried the other one, but.

00:25:12:03 - 00:25:12:14

Christian Soschner

I.

00:25:12:14 - 00:25:14:09

Kristina Levan

Do try and for everything.

00:25:14:11 - 00:25:35:19

Christian Soschner

I don't see me. But what I'm waiting for are our agents basically that can take over some some tasks. ChatGPT is going in that direction, but it's not fully there yet, in my opinion. But just to have a new idea that I'm a new model for the sake of having to model. I mean, I have, I have grok, I try to grok from X-Com.

00:25:35:21 - 00:25:37:05

Kristina Levan

I don't know about that.

00:25:37:07 - 00:25:45:22

Christian Soschner

It's it's, from a Twitter. If you just, get a Twitter subscription, you get automatically downloaded model. Then I tried Gemini from alphabet.

00:25:46:22 - 00:25:57:18

Christian Soschner

The model that works well for me is ChatGPT currently for, for my tasks. And, the new Chinese model, it's default model ten. And so. But why should I try try for model on top of the free that they already.

00:25:57:20 - 00:25:58:04

Kristina Levan

Yeah, I

00:25:58:04 - 00:26:11:17

Kristina Levan

already picked your one that you, like working with. But isn't it also that if you have used it before. Right. So you get trained on what do you need. So then you have to sort of start from the beginning again, I.

00:26:11:19 - 00:26:30:21

Christian Soschner

I think so I mean, the problem that I had at the beginning, when I think about it, is it I use it mostly for writing to enhance my writing. So when I have an idea, I make a draft and then I want to know, how about, for example, Hemingway say that, but another person, what what is a wrote way to express that?

00:26:30:21 - 00:26:39:12

Christian Soschner

Or what is a very kind way to express that, to just understand the nuances between rudeness and kindness and how you can be more polite, less polite.

00:26:39:15 - 00:26:54:03

Kristina Levan

Oh, that's perfect, because, you know, we, in Sweden, when we communicate with the UK, for example, we we need to be a little bit more blocked than we used to. So I think that's a really good, good, tip. I think I will use that. Yeah.

00:26:54:04 - 00:26:59:11

Christian Soschner

Yeah, absolutely. I grew up in the Austrian mountains and it's just direct. You say what you have to say.

00:26:59:12 - 00:27:02:17

Kristina Levan

My thinking Sweden. Yeah.

00:27:02:19 - 00:27:10:09

Christian Soschner

And research to be to understand why people said Christian you are rude to say but it's the way I look at it for how should they express it differently. This is I don't know but.

00:27:10:11 - 00:27:25:02

Kristina Levan

But it's still a little bit rude. Yeah. I mean I think also the, the Englishman you know they are they, it's also their, their language. So I think it's also easier to be maybe more polite, but I think they are more polite then than this. Weeks.

00:27:25:04 - 00:27:43:17

Christian Soschner

And ChatGPT helps me understand this nuances. The problem that I had in the beginning was the the answer sounded a little bit artificial. It it didn't sound really human. And not in models have just in their opinion, become better. And it really sounds like human language. It's sentences you can directly use in an email and plug it in.

00:27:43:23 - 00:27:46:10

Christian Soschner

It was not there two years ago.

00:27:46:12 - 00:27:49:17

Kristina Levan

So it sounds great. I will use it more.

00:27:49:19 - 00:28:02:22

Christian Soschner

So my question now from writing to to at the hospital setting. What how do you see artificial intelligence in your setting? How can you use this? Let's say the Chinese model.

00:28:02:24 - 00:28:03:14

Kristina Levan

Yeah.

00:28:03:14 - 00:28:39:14

Kristina Levan

So I think, I think you can use it will probably be very important, I think, for the development of attempts. I think we can use it in many different ways. I think for the discovering the development, the machine learning models, you know, to be able to analyze a lot of, data, both genomic and proteomic data would be very important to identify the targets that can be used for, for, for the attempts, in different conditions.

00:28:39:16 - 00:29:11:04

Kristina Levan

So that will probably be very, useful, I think. And I think it's already used. So I think it would just improve, through the years. And I think also we see that, then there can for the drug this, discovery. So we can also use AI to, to better understand how, you know, you can simulate how the product will interfere or how it will act when it's, in the human body.

00:29:11:06 - 00:29:37:24

Kristina Levan

So you can maybe, avoid some of the experiments that you would, would have to do otherwise. And that would be also, I think very, very efficient way of using AI. And maybe we can also help to identify more, specific patient subgroups to be, enrolled into clinical trials, but also to be.

00:29:38:01 - 00:30:26:08

Kristina Levan

So you get sort of better, tailored, patient into that specific trial, and then you will see then maybe even better results if you have, you are able to pick the right patients for the right treatment. And this is not only for each MP. I think it's it's more of a general, improvement. I think, and if we have also, the possibility to, to use AI to for the, and optimization for, for the manufacturing and the bioprocessing, that would also be improving and, and sort of the process of development and manufacturing, I think.

00:30:26:10 - 00:30:26:13

Christian Soschner

How

00:30:26:13 - 00:30:30:09

Christian Soschner

can how can I help in manufacturing?

00:30:30:11 - 00:30:30:20

Kristina Levan

Sorry.

00:30:31:00 - 00:30:34:06

Christian Soschner

How can artificial intelligence help in manufacturing?

00:30:34:08 - 00:30:34:15

Kristina Levan

No,

00:30:34:15 - 00:30:37:09

Kristina Levan

but I think if we have,

00:30:37:09 - 00:31:21:13

Kristina Levan

process, if that are more, automated, and you can, use AI to understand how to do that, that would be great. But also if you can have, quality controls, you can pick the right ones and you can secure the, sort of the, and the quality of the products, by using the right ones that can be identified maybe by, artificial intelligence and understanding how to take one, you know, take the, the experience that you have and put onto a new product that could also be very useful.

00:31:21:13 - 00:31:22:10

Christian Soschner

I think

00:31:22:10 - 00:31:39:01

Christian Soschner

now it's the time of the robots. I think it was Alex Waronker from Silicon Medicine who posted a picture with one of the I think it was a Tesla model Tesla, robot that I forgot the name, and he said he will pay for it. He has a lab in China. And is it? He will buy some robots for his lab and fully automate the process.

00:31:39:03 - 00:31:40:12

Kristina Levan

That's amazing. Yeah.

00:31:40:14 - 00:31:48:00

Christian Soschner

Just using combination robot robotics in combination with artificial intelligence. I think especially in the manufacturing, there must be a lot of potential.

00:31:48:00 - 00:32:05:01

Kristina Levan

And I, I assume this isn't my sort of specific expertise area, but I think, I can only imagine, I think people who work within this field, we probably have more more to add. But, just in general, I think it could of, of course, be very, very useful.

00:32:05:01 - 00:32:32:12

Christian Soschner

Minded. I just, I when to see these pictures of these Tesla robots and then the ideas of, of, of research, just like Alex. It always reminds me of Terminator 1984 movie where this was just science fiction, and it was unbelievable that, a robot might, walk and look like a human. And now it's, 40 years later, we, I think I was ten years old in 1984.

00:32:32:15 - 00:32:37:18

Christian Soschner

Terminator. So my parents were not really happy when they wanted to see the movie. It was Arnold Schwarzenegger. It's in Austrian.

00:32:37:18 - 00:32:50:05

Kristina Levan

Yeah, I remember it, but I didn't watch it because I was. I was the same age. I was 14 and 74 as well, but I thought it was, yeah, a bit scary in 1984. Right.

00:32:50:05 - 00:33:10:03

Christian Soschner

I think it was 1984. I remember it was 1984. It was also Steve Jobs had this famous speech where he painted IBM is the villain with this, dystopian utopia, obedient to, dystopia and everyday good guys who fight for freedom and privacy and the rights of people. And then there was Terminator 1984.

00:33:10:05 - 00:33:11:15

Kristina Levan

Okay. That's amazing.

00:33:11:15 - 00:33:14:16

Christian Soschner

Yeah, it was a fun year, and we were ten years old, so.

00:33:14:18 - 00:33:21:13

Kristina Levan

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I don't remember these parts. I have other memories from back here. I think.

00:33:21:15 - 00:33:34:03

Christian Soschner

Yeah. It was, I got interested in computers and Apple was always a little bit too expensive, but they had this computer, and it's a man. It's a boy. I think it was, natural at the start, to get interested in that, in that new technology.

00:33:34:05 - 00:33:44:05

Kristina Levan

Yeah. I remember my father had also one, an Apple computer. Maybe it was a little bit later, but it was quite early, and I remember it was the apple with the colors back then.

00:33:44:05 - 00:33:53:22

Christian Soschner

Yeah. Yeah, it was really innovative, but, too expensive for private use computers. It was generally for, for boys. It was more affordable.

00:33:53:24 - 00:33:55:22

Kristina Levan

Yeah. Yeah.

00:33:55:24 - 00:34:08:12

Christian Soschner

When we go back to 80 amps, what is a common misconception on the markets that you frequently encounter that people have? And we could clear up in this podcast.

00:34:08:14 - 00:34:09:05

Kristina Levan

So I

00:34:09:05 - 00:34:46:15

Kristina Levan

miss, because I don't hear much about that, actually. But I know that before early, early on, like maybe ten, ten, 15 years ago, there was a lot of discussions about, gene therapies, and there had been a few and not, successful therapies, back then. But I think sometimes people think that if we have if you are treated or, with a gene therapy, this will sort of be, something that is permanent for, for your key and your kids.

00:34:46:15 - 00:35:13:09

Kristina Levan

We will also have this, and modification and things like that. If you, if your, if you are treated with this, an early age, but, we in there are no, gene therapies, available or approved that are that are, focusing on, on the germline of the sperm, the eggs. So we don't treat those.

00:35:13:11 - 00:35:48:21

Kristina Levan

So what we treat are the other cells within the body which are not, reproducible. So, they are just so, so the, the modification just stays within the person and sometimes, and, and it might be, the effect might be life, long and it, we hope that many of the treatments are lifelong, but they are not, transferred to the, to the, to your kids, which is, could be the one that you hear about.

00:35:48:21 - 00:36:33:13

Kristina Levan

And I think sometimes also people just think it's not, safe enough. And this also puts I think you need to have the awareness of what type of conditions that this might be useful for. So if, if you if there are conditions that you, that are life threatening, for example, this might be a good, good, and choice and but I think we need to have better be aware of this, that we still do not have life, long, follow up, because these products are, new products, and we have not seen that yet.

00:36:33:15 - 00:36:56:10

Kristina Levan

But we are adding, years, of course, to the to the follow up, every year. So I think we will know more. And more. But, of course we should be aware of the risks. And I think that, that the our authorities are, watching this very closely as well.

00:36:56:10 - 00:37:00:23

Christian Soschner

I think we as Europeans are naturally good in, observing and finding risks.

00:37:01:00 - 00:37:02:11

Kristina Levan

Yeah, yeah.

00:37:02:13 - 00:37:05:02

Christian Soschner

And and avoiding the regulations.

00:37:07:01 - 00:37:11:20

Christian Soschner

When, when was the first product commercially available in, in this field?

00:37:11:22 - 00:37:14:12

Kristina Levan

Oh.

00:37:14:14 - 00:37:16:09

Christian Soschner

Just out of curiosity. Yeah, yeah.

00:37:16:09 - 00:37:16:15

Kristina Levan

And

00:37:16:15 - 00:37:19:17

Kristina Levan

I'm a bit, I should, of course, be be

00:37:19:17 - 00:37:39:15

Kristina Levan

very aware, but I, I think maybe in 2012 or something. It wasn't that long. It could be a little bit earlier than that. But we just saw a few, a few products. And now we see that the, the number of products are increasing that are approved are increasing every year.

00:37:39:17 - 00:38:00:18

Kristina Levan

And we see a lot of product in clinical trials, but I think you're on that. But then many or a few of the products that were approved early on is no longer on the market for different reasons. Maybe they have a new product for the same type of, treatments. So they are, now have the approval for, for the second products, the product.

00:38:00:18 - 00:38:31:18

Kristina Levan

But also some product have been difficult to, be, sort of it has not been able to commercialize in the way that you were hoping because, if we have some products that have been very expensive and, and the countries and the healthcare systems have not really seen that this type of condition, we cannot put that much money into treatment of this type of condition, for example.

00:38:31:18 - 00:39:14:03

Kristina Levan

And then and they have to the company has to choose not to, to renew their approval, in, in Europe. So we see and so we see this, but there are actually no products that has been approved that have been, and were removed or for safety reasons or anything. But it has been other reasons. Maybe there are some products that they have, in the US, for example, that we do not have, here in Sweden, here in Europe for for and that could be that they didn't see as a, as a market that they would, get into in a good way or get the money that they

00:39:14:03 - 00:39:17:20

Kristina Levan

wanted for the product right now for different reasons.

00:39:17:22 - 00:39:25:23

Christian Soschner

The can usually fly to the United States as well to get some treatment. I guess this is, with the mobility solutions that we have today. It's pretty.

00:39:26:00 - 00:39:36:03

Kristina Levan

Yeah, I have I think that's different. Different depending on what country you come from. But of course you can pay for it yourself. But, yeah.

00:39:36:05 - 00:39:44:11

Christian Soschner

What what got you interested in oncology? You have a PhD in oncology focused on biomarkers. If I remember right from the preparation.

00:39:44:13 - 00:40:08:02

Kristina Levan

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah that's correct. And so I was and I did my PhD on and metro cancer biomarkers for better diagnostics and better understand the prognosis for the patient. And I think, from, from that to the TMP or did you just mean by why I picked them?

00:40:08:02 - 00:40:14:12

Christian Soschner

Colleghi Nachman why why don't you why biotech in the first place?

00:40:14:14 - 00:40:21:18

Kristina Levan

So I was interested in biology, but I think I have a, you know, I have a lot of different interests, so I think it was just sort of. Yeah.

00:40:21:20 - 00:40:23:16

Christian Soschner

But actually, it's a commitment.

00:40:23:16 - 00:40:25:01

Kristina Levan

So

00:40:25:01 - 00:40:53:19

Kristina Levan

commitment. And it was fun. And I think it was also interesting to understand how, how, research is done. I come from a family with, researchers. My father was a professor in genetics, and so was my, his father, my, grandfather. So I think it was just sort of a, natural way of, of continuing your studies, I think.

00:40:54:00 - 00:41:18:22

Kristina Levan

So for me, it wasn't like a really big step. It was quite easy. And, it seemed like a good way to start and to better understand, research and how how, and to understand the things, you know, so research is fun because you get to, to test and try things and, and that's, a lot of fun.

00:41:18:22 - 00:41:42:20

Kristina Levan

And also, of course, as you say, it's a commitment. And that's also, I think, it's very it's, it's great to be able to focus on one specific, question or area that you can sort of dive into and understand more about. So, yeah.

00:41:42:20 - 00:41:46:11

Christian Soschner

The PhD is nothing to you do in an afternoon.

00:41:46:13 - 00:41:47:22

Kristina Levan

It took a few years. Yeah.

00:41:47:22 - 00:41:52:05

Christian Soschner

I have to get that. So basically you continued the family legacy.

00:41:52:07 - 00:41:55:15

Kristina Levan

So that more or less I think so. Yeah.

00:41:55:17 - 00:42:09:01

Christian Soschner

And just out of curiosity, I mean I have a cancer case in the family right now. And out of curiosity, why is it so difficult to diagnose cancer still in 2024.

00:42:09:03 - 00:42:10:01

Kristina Levan

So I think

00:42:10:01 - 00:42:32:23

Kristina Levan

it depends on what type of cancer you have. So if you have, one of the more, researched ones, you will probably have, and that could be very specific ones or ones that are, for, for children, cancer, for example, is an area that there have been a lot of research within, I think.

00:42:32:23 - 00:42:36:03

Kristina Levan

And of course, breast cancer and, and, a

00:42:36:03 - 00:42:46:19

Kristina Levan

few others. You can you will probably get a lot of information from, from your, from your doctor for what type of.

00:42:46:19 - 00:42:55:21

Kristina Levan

And then they can put you on a specific treatment. But if you have a more rare one, it's, I think we need more research.

00:42:55:21 - 00:43:44:17

Kristina Levan

And we also probably need to understand how to use the information that we have from different types of cancer, to this new type of tumor or this more rare type of tumor, because that would probably also be be very useful and could probably, increase the speed of understanding how to, how to better treat. And I know that we have, more and more, clinical studies, clinical trials that are ongoing where you look more on the, biology of the tumor than on where it's actually, the primary tumor is from, to better understand, if you can use the genetic markers to treat, independent on where, where the primary tumor

00:43:44:17 - 00:44:09:16

Kristina Levan

is located. And that, I think is very interesting. I, you know, I thought about that a lot when I was working with, with these tumors and, the biomarkers that the similarities between different, tumors with different origin might be more, sometimes more they might be more connected. If they have a similar biology, then, actually another tumor from the same site.

00:44:09:18 - 00:44:14:24

Kristina Levan

So this we can see now is that we understand a little bit more about that.

00:44:14:24 - 00:44:35:16

Christian Soschner

That this is what I also learned in the last two years that there are some types of cancer that still need some more research, and it's not easy to spot them and diagnose them early on. Even with, proper, with regular visits at the doctor and, yeah, proper testing, there are some types that still slip through.

00:44:35:18 - 00:44:43:16

Kristina Levan

And you may have the ovarian cancer, for example. We don't have a screening, for that, for example, they are like, yeah, that.

00:44:43:18 - 00:44:46:14

Christian Soschner

Why not? I mean, it must be pretty common, I think.

00:44:46:16 - 00:44:46:24

Kristina Levan

Yeah, it's

00:44:46:24 - 00:45:07:10

Kristina Levan

quite common, but I think, it's also a little bit difficult to, to find a way of, identifying the tumor. So you need to it could be benign cysts and it could be. So I think they are always, you know, the balance between the benefits and, and, so the costs that I would guess.

00:45:07:10 - 00:45:19:07

Kristina Levan

Yeah, I would, I would expect this kind of screening to be more that you can in, in the future, screen for more things than you can today. Of course.

00:45:19:09 - 00:45:43:19

Christian Soschner

What, what what's the problem that we need to solve? I mean, the idea was, I mean, for our analysis in, in famous example, but it would be basically the idea you take a blood drop and can diagnose everything. What problems do we need to solve to, to achieve? Is it is it really possible to achieve such a, such a stage that, you can diagnose every potential disease very early with a little bit of blood, but do we need to have.

00:45:43:21 - 00:45:44:04

Kristina Levan

It would

00:45:44:04 - 00:45:57:22

Kristina Levan

be great if we could do that. And I would think that, that it could also be a little bit too much information for us to handle, maybe. But of course, if it's

00:45:57:22 - 00:46:13:23

Kristina Levan

treatable, it's, Of course, very good to, to identify it early on if that sort of, it's a better, prognosis, which is, often cancer with the cancers, of course.

00:46:14:00 - 00:46:48:01

Kristina Levan

But I think it's also the costs, you know, to, to get all these biomarkers very sort of they need to be very both the sensitive but also specific. And this isn't very easy. And I think that sometimes you can use a combination, of course. And that's also what is often you have a combination of different, markers that can give you sort of an idea of what it, what we are sort of then, we are working on we have a lot of questions to be asked and so forth, but I think it's not easy.

00:46:48:03 - 00:47:14:01

Kristina Levan

We see also that there are some attempts of identifying, you know, what health and how what type of food you should eat. Then what type of training would be would be useful for your, for your sort of genetics? I haven't seen much data. I haven't looked for it either. So maybe there is better handle on how that is actually, working.

00:47:14:07 - 00:47:17:17

Kristina Levan

Have you have any. Are you, into that? Have you heard anything

00:47:17:17 - 00:47:19:19

Kristina Levan

about that?

00:47:19:21 - 00:47:22:05

Christian Soschner

Are you talking about longevity? Longevity research?

00:47:22:05 - 00:47:50:20

Kristina Levan

I guess I'm I, I'm talking about the, you know, that you can go and get these genetic tests and see what type of, profile you have, and then you get sort you get, suggestions on how what type of food you should choose and what type of, exercise, you should pick for your genetic profile. But I haven't really heard anything about the data.

00:47:50:22 - 00:47:58:23

Kristina Levan

If if it's actually giving you any more, benefits. I haven't heard about that.

00:47:59:00 - 00:48:23:07

Christian Soschner

I would not need ChatGPT. How to how should the phrased it? Very politely. I have I have not have heard about it. I got some offers. I have not tried it for the simple fact. I'm not a huge believer in that. It's my thing of belief in what I have read on the internet. Didn't convince me enough to invest time and money to look in that direction, which probably is not so much the, the issue of the companies.

00:48:23:07 - 00:48:38:10

Christian Soschner

They are probably doing already. Great job. And, it's good science, but when I see myself struggling with the basics, I know sugar is bad. Yeah, pretty much. But when I go to the grocery store around the corner.

00:48:39:20 - 00:48:47:07

Christian Soschner

I really cut back on sugar. But sometimes there is a craving, and then it sells at home with an empty food.

00:48:47:10 - 00:48:48:21

Kristina Levan

With candy.

00:48:48:23 - 00:49:07:18

Christian Soschner

Cane, and it's empty. And I say, okay, I seem to be addicted to sugar as a as long as I struggle with the basics. Why should they go into the Champions League and say so? I have so much ground work to do. Also with industrial thoughts. I mean, it's a no brainer to just avoid some types of foods with a lot of chemistry in it.

00:49:07:18 - 00:49:21:02

Christian Soschner

And, more on the fruit side. But it's the same problem. I mean, some products simply taste good and they are already well done. Even though they're unhealthy. And, so I see myself struggling with the basics.

00:49:21:04 - 00:49:21:12

Kristina Levan

I think

00:49:21:12 - 00:49:49:24

Kristina Levan

that's, probably how many people are, are handling or are doing it. I think it's not that easy. So I think but let's, be positive and maybe we can see those kinds of blood samples that can tell us more about, potential risks. And, also give us the, the opportunity to, to get treatment already early on if, if needed.

00:49:50:01 - 00:49:50:11

Kristina Levan

Yeah.

00:49:50:14 - 00:50:01:05

Christian Soschner

I try to blame the government for that and say, please provide a system for me that's, forces me into keeping these habits. And then we can go into the Champions League. But this is just,

00:50:01:07 - 00:50:09:09

Kristina Levan

So maybe I should have a specific story for people like, you and I. You cannot avoid sugar. So you just have first without the sugar.

00:50:09:11 - 00:50:22:14

Christian Soschner

I, I completely agree. I would I want the tax on sugar. I want, no sugary products available. It should be restricted to certain, drugstores where you are allowed. Well, just can walk by and not walking.

00:50:22:16 - 00:50:37:09

Kristina Levan

So, you know, we have that with, and with wine and, alcohol and sweet. And we have the specific stores, so you cannot. So if you go into, a regular grocery store, we don't have the wine and the beer. Yeah. So for.

00:50:37:11 - 00:50:47:06

Christian Soschner

Yeah, I have not so much problems with or without alcohol. It's, I don't drink alcohol. And it's always surprising when I'm at an event and I don't drink anything that people know.

00:50:47:06 - 00:50:55:20

Kristina Levan

But I think if you have, then you can have the sort of the alcohol store, and then you can have the sugar stuff. You have the candy store.

00:50:55:22 - 00:51:01:01

Christian Soschner

This is this is the street for the addicted. And, just stay out of the street. I completely agree to that.

00:51:02:03 - 00:51:22:15

Christian Soschner

I always wondered when we talk about biomarkers and diagnostics. I mean, you need plots, you need plots to diagnose cancer, and, I love running, for example. And when I think back ten, 15 years ago, when, I wanted to, to record my runs, there was no app, there was no appliances that I could use. Now I have, my Apple Watch.

00:51:22:15 - 00:51:41:16

Christian Soschner

Watch. I only did the Apple Watch to record the run the have Strava app. And it records every meter, heart to heart frequency, heart rate. I have the iPhone. It records where I walk around. It's even even so sensitive that it, recognizes differences in my walking patterns. And, reminds me of.

00:51:41:22 - 00:51:48:22

Kristina Levan

Ask you about something so they can say, now you're walking slower than you did last week or something. Yeah, yeah.

00:51:48:24 - 00:52:13:16

Christian Soschner

And then also, I was checked, tripped and feet a lot of language patterns into the systems. Can you imagine a world where, from changes in behavior like people behave that it's possible to diagnose diseases early on just from observing the patient? 24 seven adapt to person 24 seven.

00:52:13:18 - 00:52:14:03

Kristina Levan

So I

00:52:14:03 - 00:52:23:11

Kristina Levan

would assume some conditions would be possible. But maybe not. But but maybe you can buy it. The change would be

00:52:23:11 - 00:52:47:18

Kristina Levan

probably an indicator. I would expect. But also I think with, with other types of conditions, it could maybe, you know, if you had some issues with the knee or something, that would probably be easier if you're, behaving like you are very tired or.

00:52:47:19 - 00:53:10:02

Kristina Levan

I don't know. Yeah, probably, but maybe not everything. But maybe more than. But also, you know, the healthcare would explode if, if everyone sort of get the notifications about why you should do a checkup because you are working slower this week than last week, you know, yes, it is. It very. Is it useful?

00:53:10:02 - 00:53:11:13

Kristina Levan

I have,

00:53:11:17 - 00:53:35:10

Christian Soschner

In my opinion, yes. You know, isn't it a logistics problem? I mean, the healthcare system is exploding anyways. And, now we have a system here in Austria, which is basically an annual checkup. You go to the doctor, once a year, get a lot of, standardized tests, and then you define something or you don't find any defined anything, and then you walk home or you get get the treatment.

00:53:35:12 - 00:53:42:14

Christian Soschner

Wouldn't it be an improvement if you can really make it just in time to that people just are hooked on appliances.

00:53:42:16 - 00:53:43:09

Kristina Levan

Yeah.

00:53:43:09 - 00:54:04:00

Kristina Levan

That would I am and totally agree with you that that would be of course. Good. And then you can also maybe do some changes so you can be aware of, of what is what the risks are. And you can also get the support in changing things. Yeah. And get treatment if that's necessary. Of course. They're already very young.

00:54:04:04 - 00:54:05:06

Kristina Levan

Yeah.

00:54:05:08 - 00:54:15:06

Christian Soschner

Maybe some ethical questions. So I think it when, when, when the iPhone gives you an gives the person in electroshock for a, when they wants to drink alcohol. So I think that's bad for this system.

00:54:15:06 - 00:54:27:14

Kristina Levan

So yes, that would be and I also I think that being monitored, 24 seven could also be, from this point of view.

00:54:27:16 - 00:54:30:08

Christian Soschner

We already there yet I think but okay.

00:54:30:13 - 00:54:54:10

Kristina Levan

Yes. I, I'm, I'm curious. You know, you can see you can see all the data that are actually collected. So I think, for me to, to get sort of depth feedback on how my walking distances and where I was, I don't know, I don't remember where, where, where I was walking like three, three weeks ago, having a walk in the evening or something.

00:54:54:12 - 00:54:59:15

Kristina Levan

And, someone else has all of the information about that.

00:54:59:17 - 00:55:09:19

Christian Soschner

I mean, for me, it comes to running. I like the development. I had to face where I ran a lot of marathons, but it's 12 years ago. 12 years ago. And I remember when the youth run.

00:55:09:19 - 00:55:11:02

Kristina Levan

Keep them back then.

00:55:11:04 - 00:55:24:24

Christian Soschner

Yeah, it was ran keeper was the first one that was on the market. And before I did write some journals, but this was really difficult because I had nothing to to measure and it was a lot of work.

00:55:25:01 - 00:55:31:08

Kristina Levan

Also complicated to understand how long you were running. Right? The distance. Not the time, but the distance.

00:55:31:10 - 00:55:46:07

Christian Soschner

The only proper measurement back then was basically at an event. The running event. But also with with Frankie. I mean, the first versions, there was no, approach. The iPhone was not really accurate back then.

00:55:46:09 - 00:55:54:22

Kristina Levan

Now you can see, like this really strange, transitions between different, parts of the.

00:55:54:24 - 00:56:05:05

Christian Soschner

The chips was not accurate and the battery life was horrible. It was just every 30 minutes or 40 minutes and the battery was empty. It was.

00:56:05:07 - 00:56:09:05

Kristina Levan

So you had to run really quickly or short distances.

00:56:09:07 - 00:56:36:14

Christian Soschner

But what I learned with Frankie early on, I mean, it became better with every iPhone. So the battery problem was solved pretty, pretty quickly. Also, the trips currency, was was solved, I think already with the iPhone 4 or 5 or something. But what I learned with Frankie is, the community around running any time when I finished an official marathon before the 2.2km, I got a lot of positive feedback from people in the US, from people in Australia.

00:56:36:16 - 00:56:45:12

Kristina Levan

And really, that's a you connected to some sort of, open, and community. Yeah. Yeah.

00:56:45:14 - 00:56:56:01

Christian Soschner

And this is something really which, which pushed me forward and I learned a lot about how positive positive, how positive words can influence or can reinforce positive behavior.

00:56:56:03 - 00:57:03:17

Kristina Levan

Yeah. I'm, I'm impressed by, by the fact that you have been running marathons. That's impressive. I think I never run that fast.

00:57:03:19 - 00:57:10:10

Christian Soschner

So, I had to face it was a 2012, 2013 variety, marathon almost every month.

00:57:10:10 - 00:57:17:06

Kristina Levan

So I was. Oh, okay. Wow. So I, I never heard about that before. Right.

00:57:17:08 - 00:57:36:10

Christian Soschner

There are people that are just, more addicted to that than I was back then. So this is, on on Strava, for example, there is a guy I think, I have to look it up, I think is, isn't he in Sweden? I have to look it up. He runs a marathon every day. Every day the same course.

00:57:36:12 - 00:57:44:23

Kristina Levan

But how does he have time for that? If if that's the only thing he's doing? I run probably very fast as well, but not.

00:57:45:00 - 00:57:51:11

Christian Soschner

Every day. 3.5 hours in the morning, 6 to 9. Probably ten. Off to work.

00:57:51:13 - 00:58:13:24

Kristina Levan

There are also these people who who run like ultra, long time are like running, running, running for us as long distance as you can manage for like six hours or 110 K's every hour. And that. Right? Yeah. You know all about this?

00:58:13:24 - 00:58:46:18

Christian Soschner

Yeah. A lot of, 100 mile runs, through the wilderness. Mostly in the United States. In the mountains with some thousand, meters up and down as it is. And then I think that the weirdest thing that I have heard of is a 1000 mile run in New York on a one kilometer course, where people just start and they stop when they hit 1000 miles.

00:58:46:20 - 00:58:48:21

Kristina Levan

That's a bit crazy.

00:58:48:23 - 00:58:56:14

Christian Soschner

But I don't I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. Let's let's go. Let's go back to that.

00:58:56:16 - 00:58:58:06

Kristina Levan

That's better. Yeah.

00:58:58:08 - 00:59:12:01

Christian Soschner

You you did a lot of research in oncology focused on biomarkers and then moved to ATP. How was the process from from biomarkers, you know, ecology to ATP. How did you discover that area.

00:59:12:04 - 00:59:42:24

Kristina Levan

Yeah. So I haven't been a researcher within the ATP. So I have sort of a different type of, a role, nowadays. So what I did was when I ended sort of my career as a researcher, I started working with clinical trials at the hospital, the rheumatology department, and, and got more and more interested in the, in the, clinical trials and the innovation around that and things like that.

00:59:42:24 - 01:00:28:09

Kristina Levan

And then I was actually doing it a few years. I had an, position at the, Technical University in Gothenburg called Shamash, where I was, working with, as a research advisor at the grants office and, Shailesh was really is known for the, the focus on, on innovation and, to the utilization process, even if it's not for mainly not for clinical trials, it's more biomaterial and, automotive and, you know, on different areas.

01:00:28:11 - 01:01:05:05

Kristina Levan

It was still very interesting to me. The focus on the research, being utilized. And that was quite new to me when I, when I, it came to much. And when I was working there, I also saw a different type of, approach where you had my background, you could also work with, the support for the management of the university, for example, with the, applications and, to prioritize what researchers should be candidates for different calls and, and such.

01:01:05:07 - 01:01:29:15

Kristina Levan

And, and you could also work as, sort of an expert in an area supporting large EU projects and, and coordinating projects and things like that, which I didn't really I wasn't aware of that before, as a researcher. So, but then I was also longing back to, you know, I wanted to come back to the life science to the clinic.

01:01:29:15 - 01:01:54:04

Kristina Levan

So I, I applied for a position working with clinical trials at the Soviet State University Hospital in, in 2020, just when that when we had that and that, the pandemic and, when I came back there, they also worked with the camp. So they had new and newly established AT&T center, which I got involved in.

01:01:54:06 - 01:02:27:13

Kristina Levan

And quite soon after I came back to the hospital. So I think, the interest from my point of view, from my perspective, was to be involved in this, relay and. Interesting area, of course, but also to be involved in this big project and to develop and, this new area within the hospital, but also to be connected to, to national initiatives, which was also a part of that position.

01:02:27:13 - 01:02:55:06

Kristina Levan

So I, I had the opportunity to join in to, national initiatives focusing on a TMP and the innovation system. It was a specific one called AT&T 2030, and which is that one of the, larger projects or initiatives, within Sweden. So we, we were working with on a national level, trying to support different parts of the ecosystem.

01:02:55:06 - 01:03:44:06

Kristina Levan

And this has been so, so much fun. And also, it's so impressive to see the community working together with different stakeholders to, to improve the capacity and the capability in Sweden to be able to be, someone, country to be sort of involved in international, programs and projects and be a part of the the countries that are actually sort of trying to, to be very much involved in developing the, the area of eight MP so, so for me, this was really, I, I'm so happy that I came back to the hospital and was able to join this community and to be a part of this.

01:03:44:07 - 01:03:47:06

Kristina Levan

It has been so much fun.

01:03:47:17 - 01:03:59:23

Christian Soschner

I have, taken three notes while you were speaking. It's 18, 20, 30, clinical trials and international collaboration. Maybe we can dive into these three topics a little bit deeper into the final hour of our conversation.

01:04:00:00 - 01:04:01:15

Kristina Levan

Yeah.

01:04:01:17 - 01:04:20:10

Christian Soschner

Let's start with clinical trials. When when I started in life science in 2006, I mean, it, I came from an and, also studied at the University of, business, and we had a lot of process management topics. And for me, it was like you plug something into a process and it just moves through very, smoothly.

01:04:20:10 - 01:04:48:13

Christian Soschner

And at the end you get a drug on the market and that's it. It's easy. But I learned quickly that it's not that easy because you have to connect, the academic mindset, which is very unique and special to really, move something forward and find new ideas into a development mindset, which, is then not so much creative, but more focused on moving something forward and improving that, but developing the processes from scratch.

01:04:48:15 - 01:05:10:01

Christian Soschner

And then I learned that clinical trials are complete. Another set of, of stages. It's, not similar to this preclinical development that's similar to academia. You need to involve much more people. And then finally, we hit the market. I would like to learn from you. How is it to get a new track into clinical trials? What's your experience with that?

01:05:10:01 - 01:05:14:08

Christian Soschner

Is it is it easy? Is it difficult? What are the challenges in this field?

01:05:14:10 - 01:05:14:15

Kristina Levan

It

01:05:14:15 - 01:06:13:16

Kristina Levan

depends if it's, product that has been developed within, the academy, it might be a lot of, hurdles to be sort of trying to, to overcome. And for champ, this isn't that rare. I, many of the products are developed within an academic setting, and, and we see that one of the very important things, to support and, the researcher is to be, connected quite early, to people that that know more about, the transition from pre-clinical to clinic, because you have to have you have to prepare your product already early on in your tests to be a product that will be,

01:06:13:18 - 01:06:48:24

Kristina Levan

given to, to a patient, later on. And this, this, a really long process. And you need to be very aware that this is a long process that also cost a lot of money. So and what we can see, I think maybe it's the same in other countries as well. But what we see in Sweden is that we have, difficulties finding funding for the, the clinical, tries, and they are very expensive and, it's, there are not that many different calls that you can apply for.

01:06:49:05 - 01:07:31:04

Kristina Levan

So, this is also something that we hope now that decision makers are more aware of, of attempts and of course, other products as well, that they can, also support that transition. Find a way to, to support that. But it is very complicated and, and with attempts, we hope that, the hospital will have the GMP facilities, some of the hospitals in Sweden have DMP facilities where they are manufacturing, companies.

01:07:31:06 - 01:08:14:19

Kristina Levan

And they also have the knowledge and the experience, even if attempts are a very broad, type of drugs, they are they look very different, as we already talked about the gene therapies and the somatic cell therapies and tissue and and even if they are gene therapies, they can still be very different from each other. So the variety is also something that you need to be aware of, but you can still have some, support maybe from, from the, experienced, people working in the hospital, GMP facilities, if you are a researcher, if you are, if the product is from a comes from a company and they are have, have

01:08:14:21 - 01:08:38:02

Kristina Levan

are more aware of of the difficulties and they also have, if it's a big, big company, they have also have the resources and the, maybe the experience from a lot of clinical trials. And this is just sort of, the next level or the next, next level or something. So they, they can also, maybe cope with these difficulties.

01:08:38:04 - 01:09:08:15

Kristina Levan

More, you see. But I think that as, as we see in Sweden now, we have also this initiative called CCR Nordic, which is and in innovation cluster or Innovation hub. It's located close to, To Death and Berg where I'm from. And it was established or the initiative was sort of starting. It's almost two years ago now, and they are building a large facility where they can help with the commercialization.

01:09:08:15 - 01:09:47:16

Kristina Levan

So CCR stands for a center for Commercialization of Regenerative Medicine Nordic. So it's, the plan is to be a center for all the Nordic countries to support with these difficult, steps from pre-clinical to clinic to commercialized product. And, and we also see that we have a lot of, partnerships between, the hospitals and the Nordic, to to find a way how to improve the support and the capability to, to, to develop products in Sweden.

01:09:47:16 - 01:09:53:20

Christian Soschner

That's great. We got a question. We have, Luca Poetica in, in in our conversation.

01:09:53:20 - 01:09:55:07

Christian Soschner

Luca, welcome.

01:09:55:07 - 01:10:24:19

Kristina Levan

Hello. Thank you very much for the very interesting discussion that, you guys are sharing with us. I just have a quick question. You know, when I see and think about this type of therapies, I think about bone marrow transplantation and, shouldn't we, take the bone marrow transplantation like approach in order to, effectively try to tackle as many of these diseases as possible?

01:10:24:19 - 01:10:52:11

Kristina Levan

Because I'm not sure that pharma and biotech are the right partner for this type of, of therapeutics. And, you know, from a financing point of view, there is no way that, we're going to be able to finance, all these, these, cell therapies and so on. So I'm just wondering, you know, what would be your position to have, more bone marrow transplant patient approach in, in, in this space as well?

01:10:52:13 - 01:11:21:21

Kristina Levan

Thank you. Yes. If I understand you correctly, I, you asked for, maybe to have more point of care production, maybe a license type of production of, of these therapies to, for the hospitals to be able to afford and also to, to maybe shorten, the delivery of the product and the manufacturing instead of that part.

01:11:21:22 - 01:11:54:03

Kristina Levan

And I think this is a very important question. Thank you for, for for asking me. I think I agree with you. I think we need to find a way to standardize the protocols and to better understand how the hospitals can maybe support and, and handle, parts of the, of the production. Both for, for, as I mentioned, to shorten the, the, the time, that the manufacturing takes but also, to be more affordable.

01:11:54:05 - 01:12:19:04

Kristina Levan

But we haven't really seen that yet. But I know that there are this is a discussion, that we, we hear and, we also have in Europe, we have the hospital exemption that you might be aware of, and we have, and we see that this is also handled differently in a slightly different way depending on which country you're in.

01:12:19:06 - 01:12:43:11

Kristina Levan

So this is also raising questions, but I think they we need to talk about this. But because I think it, and the goal is to treat the patient and we need to understand how we can do that, in the best. And, of course, for the hospitals and for the public, for the publicly funded, health care, it's important that if we can't afford it.

01:12:43:13 - 01:13:07:20

Kristina Levan

So I agree. Thank you very much. Maybe. Can I ask another quick, just a quick one. In Sweden, you have great, registry, for treatments. Do you have, a registry for, let's say the, the space as well? Thank you. And I will follow and listen, incognito. Thank you very much.

01:13:07:21 - 01:13:45:05

Kristina Levan

Thank you. So we have registries. I think there is actually, some difficulties of understanding how to, to connect to the registries. The we have registries, for many types of different, patient groups. And I might not be the right person to answer that question, but I, I know that there has been difficulties, with the documentation in the registries and, so far it hasn't been that many patients.

01:13:45:05 - 01:14:02:20

Kristina Levan

It's a little bit over 200 treated with in Sweden. But I think it will be very important to, to share, the, the data of course, in these registries ahead. And I know that there are discussions on this, but I don't really know where where it stands right now.

01:14:02:20 - 01:14:11:18

Christian Soschner

One question from from my side, you mentioned ATP 2030 as an initiative. What is it exactly?

01:14:12:06 - 01:14:46:17

Kristina Levan

So it's, project, the national project funded by the innovation agency in Sweden, we know. And, it has been, it actually ended in November at the end of November last year. So, it has had been ongoing for five years, with the aim of, focusing on system innovation. So the idea is, was to understand how we better can improve, the use of and, and the development of attempts in Sweden.

01:14:46:17 - 01:15:27:18

Kristina Levan

So we have, different subgoals focusing on different parts. And we have one subgoal focusing on manufacturing and commercialization. And, we now see the CCR and Nordic hub, developing in Sweden, which is one, really good achievement from that initiative. And we also have one subgoal focusing on, the health care and the implementation and, and the use of cost effective, atps and Swedish health care and we can see that we now have more products in implemented in health care.

01:15:27:18 - 01:15:55:18

Kristina Levan

And we see that we also have quite good connections between the different university hospitals. We have the TP centers, with the representatives that meet every, every month, every four week, and and share experience and information between each other and can also gather information of for example, clinical trials, which they have been doing.

01:15:55:18 - 01:16:21:22

Kristina Levan

And now so we present it on the web page in Sweden under hospital and have you can find, Perhaps you can find information about the ongoing clinical trials with a TMP Sweden. And, we can also see that this, and the last, five years or so, we have have had an increase in, feasibility, around clinical trials.

01:16:21:22 - 01:16:48:21

Kristina Levan

So we have been there have been more questions about conducting clinical trials with ATP in the Swedish healthcare the last year, which is, very positive. We can also see one or another of the subgroups have been focusing on, education and the competence need. So we have a few reports focusing on, what type of, education is needed and what type of competencies.

01:16:49:01 - 01:17:23:12

Kristina Levan

We, both the hospital, the academia and the industry be interested in. And is there anything that we need to and of course, of course, is that we need to develop and introducing to the educational programs and, we see that we have a lot of activity, within the, universities. And the industry is focusing on trying to, support each other with, developing courses and take part in different educational initiatives.

01:17:23:14 - 01:17:49:12

Kristina Levan

In the Western parts of Sweden, we now have two, projects focusing on competence and need and educational initiatives. And we have one focusing on the health care personnel, which we have not talked that much about yet, but we have. And there are new types of areas and, competencies that and that are needed for the people working in the health care, with the ATP.

01:17:49:12 - 01:18:18:04

Kristina Levan

So, we think also that we might need to sort of increase the general knowledge about the ATP and the new products that are introduced. And we have, and this is very, very ambitious program that we think will increase, competence a lot, in the health care personnel, it's focusing on the western parts of Sweden to start, but we hope that we can build some kind of a concept that can be used by other regions and maybe in other countries as well.

01:18:18:04 - 01:18:43:02

Kristina Levan

I don't know, but, but it could be, it's a not everyone needs to, develop their own material and their own course so we can share that in Sweden and maybe other countries are interested as well. And we also have, another project focusing on developing courses for the people working in the companies. Working together with academia.

01:18:43:04 - 01:19:29:05

Kristina Levan

It's just started, both of them. So, let's see where we, what will happen. But I think this is a really nice initiatives. And we also have, research school for PhD students have also been funded the, the last couple of years from the, from the research council in Sweden. So we see that a lot of the initiatives that sort of was in driven by the innovation, maybe, 18 to 2030 is also, some stuff is happening in, in Sweden and, even though we are not, of course, the only one, who are responsible for this change, we see that the connection between different groups and different stakeholders

01:19:29:05 - 01:19:38:02

Kristina Levan

that were facilitated or joined through the community within and can be 2030 has been really successful, in my opinion. Yeah.

01:19:38:02 - 01:19:50:18

Christian Soschner

You mentioned we need new competencies in, for the health care workers. Which which new competencies do you see? What what what what type of training is needed in future in regards to attempts.

01:19:50:20 - 01:20:21:21

Kristina Levan

So we see that we can probably use the people that are already working in the health care because they are very knowledgeable. They have a lot of, experience. So, people who have previously been working with maybe transplantations or or these kinds of things can, be trained, to work in the facilities where you, collect the blood or the tissue and then use that are then used for as a starting material for a product.

01:20:21:21 - 01:21:00:24

Kristina Levan

But, and also for the pharmacists, for example, they also need to handle this new type of blood products. And there are other regulations around that. So maybe they need to add on some new knowledge to be able to use it. And the same is for the clinician and for the nurses. Of course. So, we think that we can, probably, educate people who are already and they are, you know, the people working with the tested patients are very, much interested in, in, being able to give the new innovative and efficient treatments.

01:21:01:01 - 01:21:24:07

Kristina Levan

So, we just need to support them because maybe they don't really have time to, to go to other places to take courses or to maybe educate their colleagues. So, so the project aims to support, with, with, these type of things and also to transfer knowledge from, from one part, one person to two to the rest of the group, maybe, and things like that.

01:21:24:07 - 01:21:24:23

Kristina Levan

Yeah.

01:21:25:00 - 01:21:49:07

Christian Soschner

Yeah. I think you mean looking at the point probably here. I just was thinking it through. I mean, when you talk, when you think about small molecules, for example, I mean, you you get the idea from academia, you put it in pre-clinical development, develop a manufacturing process, then bring it into clinics, scale the process up, when it's possible, and then you license it into Big pharma.

01:21:49:11 - 01:21:58:23

Christian Soschner

Some, some, some of the big players, by uploading, Merck, whoever, and they are really proficient in, in, in, in scaling it globally.

01:21:59:00 - 01:21:59:16

Kristina Levan

Yes.

01:21:59:18 - 01:22:27:10

Christian Soschner

But but the thing is, it's, you produce a product that it's easy to ship in a way that it can be. It's really easy to ship. And then you deploy it to hospitals, pharmacies and patients buy it and that's it. So it's, more or less one stream in one direction with a very slow feedback loop. Of course, you monitor the patients, and when you have adverse events, you analyze that.

01:22:27:10 - 01:22:50:16

Christian Soschner

But it's a very slow feedback loop back into research and back at the beginning of the process. And after listening to you and look, I mean, the process for Atps, it's, it's it's a, it's a two way loop. So basically it's back from the patients in real time to manufacturer. They need to manufacture an entirely new product.

01:22:50:18 - 01:23:06:15

Christian Soschner

It yet compared to small molecules for every patients, for every single patient and then back to the patient, this is this must be a huge challenge to just reiterate what look about. But this this is very challenging.

01:23:06:17 - 01:23:07:04

Kristina Levan

But,

01:23:07:04 - 01:23:46:14

Kristina Levan

all the products are in of this type. Of course. So these are the ones that when you use them, the patient's own cells. So there are also new, products coming where the, where you can use donors to have products that, you can more like off the shelf products that will and sort of decrease the complexity of, of, of the product and the, and the manufacturing, because you can make larger batches and, and, and transport them, at the same time to the hospital or to some storage or something.

01:23:46:14 - 01:24:20:17

Kristina Levan

But I, so, so we see, I think this is the complexity need in the community or the developers are trying to decrease the complexity and find other ways, because it has been not so, as, as we were talking about the cost before, we need to decrease the cost. And it could also be, a way of a way of doing that could be that you can make larger batches and that you can have them stored for longer time.

01:24:20:17 - 01:24:44:08

Kristina Levan

And, and things like that. So I think, there are many different parts that could probably be, developed further for, for better, for easier use and maybe also easier manufacturing and cheaper products.

01:24:44:11 - 01:25:05:00

Christian Soschner

That is just for brainstorming. I mean, for me as a business person, business people hate complexity. It just drives cost. And when it becomes too expensive, you narrow down, the, the number of patients who really benefit from that. Sometimes it's only then the rich again and not the average person, because it's just far, far too expensive.

01:25:05:02 - 01:25:21:07

Christian Soschner

When we brainstorm and you could model an ideal world. And I think this, this, I mean, in my opinion, the ideal world is, of course, using the patient's own system to cure the patient. And as long as, you can use that, I think it's it's more beneficial for the person than using donor sensors for something else.

01:25:21:12 - 01:25:47:16

Christian Soschner

But if we just stay in that world, in that default, what would be an ideal setup? Wouldn't that be a possibility to invent a new industry? Basically to go away from pharma industry and just set it up by itself and, for centers, for example, what would be, in your opinion, the ideal solution for that to come, to bring the costs down and to really have, affordable treatments for everybody?

01:25:47:18 - 01:25:49:12

Kristina Levan

I haven't thought about that.

01:25:49:14 - 01:25:51:07

Christian Soschner

Just just as a brainstorming.

01:25:51:07 - 01:25:53:16

Kristina Levan

Yeah. But I think,

01:25:53:16 - 01:26:24:01

Kristina Levan

as we were talking about the, point of care, production or manufacturing, like customized products, that you can manufacture really close to the patient or in centers. That would be very interesting, I think. And also if you have like one, we talked about one of the, one genetic disease where you where you inherit blindness, for one specific gene.

01:26:24:03 - 01:26:53:24

Kristina Levan

That we now have a product for treating these patients. But if it's another gene that is, not functioning, which causes it's more or less the same. It would be, you know, wonderful if you just could, you know, take the gene editing tool at the hospital, you know, you identify the patients. Mutation or deficiency.

01:26:53:24 - 01:27:31:13

Kristina Levan

And then you can just introduce, the right gene into this sort of already prepared, product or concept. And then you produce the specific customized product for the patient. That would be, of course, amazing if you could do that. And very useful. But still, I think most depending on the development, it could also be very many patients that will be, relevant, for these types of therapies.

01:27:31:13 - 01:27:36:04

Kristina Levan

So I think, that is something that you need to be aware of.

01:27:36:04 - 01:27:45:24

Kristina Levan

Will it be possible to build these, infrastructures and manufacturing, laboratories within the hospitals?

01:27:45:24 - 01:28:04:11

Kristina Levan

Is that the way that we want to do it? It's complex. And who will I think I think it needs to be, We need to wait a while before we know, the best way of approaching this, I think, because it's a little bit.

01:28:04:16 - 01:28:33:11

Kristina Levan

Still a little bit too complex to understand. As we talked about before, the the products, the 18 piece are so different from each other. Some some of them might be really good. To, to have a point of care production and licensing the, the, and the production. But I think some of them might be too difficult for us to handle within the hospital.

01:28:34:10 - 01:28:56:21

Christian Soschner

I was thinking by speaking of, I believe many people in Europe will hate me when I say it, but they say it anyways. I mean, if you look towards the US, especially in the last year, what's the date? The shoot a rocket up into space and then brought it back down and caught it with, with, with chopsticks and, we can't do that in Europe.

01:28:56:21 - 01:29:10:10

Christian Soschner

So probably this year, but maybe they're speaking to be more serious. I mean, but what you basically need to the hospital is a GMP facility and standardize process at the end of the day. So you take the cells from the patient, just to stay with this one example.

01:29:10:12 - 01:29:10:17

Kristina Levan

Started.

01:29:10:22 - 01:29:29:16

Christian Soschner

The conversation with that. And then you have this facility. You just need to put it for what makes it complexes. When you need when it's not standardized and you need human intervention. And this is expensive needs a lot of training it it slows the process down. But with this new tools that we have, I mean, we can shoot rockets just to accelerate because we can do that.

01:29:29:18 - 01:30:00:22

Christian Soschner

With you don't mask, for example. I mean, you shoot rockets into the air and then bring it back down. And I think he he cut the cost back by by 90%. So this reusable rocket system is now much more cost efficient. Yeah. And I was just thinking, would it be possible with AI and robotics to standardize a lab in a way that you can basically, deploy it at every large hospital at, very low cost so that you have this standard, standard where no human intervention is necessary anymore?

01:30:00:24 - 01:30:01:09

Kristina Levan

Yeah,

01:30:01:09 - 01:30:10:10

Kristina Levan

probably. I think it probably maybe you need to have someone, you know, signing off stuff, but but I think,

01:30:10:10 - 01:30:31:02

Kristina Levan

yes, I think because we are now seeing some products that are similar, but the but still a little bit different. And if we better understand how to standardize that, it will probably, it, it would probably be, a way of handling it.

01:30:31:02 - 01:30:57:07

Kristina Levan

Yes. We see also new, new, systems that are used for the production, for the processing of the, of the product. So, which are more closed systems and that you, you know, you, code them, you define them, and you decide what they should do. You sort of program them, and then you, they are doing all the work.

01:30:57:09 - 01:31:12:22

Kristina Levan

And of course, we have people, checking and doing and controls and things like that. But I think that could more of those things could probably also be designed into the, into the system, I would guess.

01:31:12:22 - 01:31:24:10

Kristina Levan

And, that is probably what we need, you know, closed systems that are managing themselves. Would be, useful for

01:31:24:10 - 01:31:35:18

Kristina Levan

the hospitals, I think, because then you don't need the as much, area to, to to be used for the production either.

01:31:35:18 - 01:31:46:17

Kristina Levan

You don't have to have specific room for the specific product products to be ready for, for a patient, but you can more be more efficient in how you use the resources.

01:31:46:20 - 01:31:58:13

Christian Soschner

Yeah, I think I like several curve related points there with this idea of a fully automated lab for such cases and with robotics and, integrating that. And I think it's working on there's a lot of possibility of what makes it expensive.

01:31:58:13 - 01:32:02:03

Kristina Levan

And I could test that in Sweden. You should test that in Sweden.

01:32:02:05 - 01:32:14:10

Christian Soschner

Yeah, it was on my part because the content of the episode maybe to reach out to him and he's operating in China, in Dubai, in the United States and, I think also in the UK. But, Sweden would be would be a place.

01:32:14:12 - 01:32:36:18

Kristina Levan

Yeah. Now maybe he's on. They are already discussing it with the system Nordic because I know that they have many very interesting projects. And thoughts about how to be also very, dynamic type of lab so you can adjust to different settings and things like that.

01:32:36:20 - 01:33:05:23

Christian Soschner

Jennifer selected point from, from, from local radio. I mean, you don't need to put everything into an established industry. You can just, be innovative and disruptive and which leads to the next block of questions, which is, international collaboration, especially across diverse sectors. How do you see that in Sweden? In the healthcare ecosystem? How how how easy or challenging is that?

01:33:06:00 - 01:33:07:14

Kristina Levan

Which of them do you mean?

01:33:07:14 - 01:33:30:16

Christian Soschner

Now, when we talk, I mean, when when I think back to my career in life science, 26, I was working for a small molecule company spin out of Novartis, and it was pretty much the standard across a small molecule. And do you have everything established in the industry and just push it through? Then, 6 or 7 years later was the advent of, digital health.

01:33:30:18 - 01:33:52:15

Christian Soschner

So they were the first the key of, digitalizing the whole process and products and they found it pretty challenging when I was talking with venture capitalists and also with, with my group, for example. There was it it looked to me like we have two silos, we have this digital space, and then we have this biopharma space, and that was almost no connection.

01:33:52:19 - 01:34:20:12

Christian Soschner

And it took, 10 to 12 years to loosen that up. And I think, I mean, we have these collaboration issues within the existing value chain, which is really challenging. We talk about it, but then you get a lot of diverse ideas from different sectors, like robotics, for example. You can now put robots in it. Think about rethink manufacturing, from from ground up and say, okay, what if we take the human factor out?

01:34:20:14 - 01:34:42:02

Christian Soschner

We don't need probably a plant somewhere we can put it really into a hospital. And how can we do that? But it needs a lot of collaboration and getting people into communication, which I find sometimes very challenging. How do you see the potential to to enhance this process of cross-sectoral communication?

01:34:42:04 - 01:34:42:11

Kristina Levan

Yeah,

01:34:42:11 - 01:35:13:21

Kristina Levan

I agree, I think this is something that we can, and we probably need to be more open to how to and how do we meet. I think this is the first how do we get connected and how do we understand that, this is what we need if we don't really know about the area. So I was, I was invited to this, event, last summer, which was focusing on, and digitalization.

01:35:13:23 - 01:35:39:09

Kristina Levan

And it was I hadn't not really anything to do with it could have to health care to life science, but it had to do with other types of areas. But they invited me because they saw that they could probably do stuff for, for the area, for the development and this is of course, the first, the first approach.

01:35:39:09 - 01:36:07:23

Kristina Levan

And I think it might be a really good connection that we get, in the same room and that we present what we are working on and, and, and people that know other stuff, you know, because they are. So this is not an issue. This is something that we have been doing in the, automotive industry or something, and we can just transfer it to, to this setting, and it will probably help you a lot.

01:36:08:00 - 01:36:40:19

Kristina Levan

And we have also now, in the, close to where the CSR Nordic is located, we also have, it's called health innovation. Not health innovation with but I forgot but it's, it's go co it's called go Co. So it's a community or an area, close to AstraZeneca where AstraZeneca is located, where you can, they have open like, office spaces.

01:36:40:24 - 01:37:11:19

Kristina Levan

And we see that in this office spaces. Like Volvo cars have also an office there. And we can see that different types, it's not just the life science businesses. So we can see other types of companies, getting contact, with the life sciences companies, which I think if maybe something that could develop this better understanding and maybe how to collaborate and how to connect, with each other.

01:37:11:21 - 01:37:45:05

Kristina Levan

But I think, it is, we are more aware of the need for this type of collaboration. So it's not only between academia, healthcare and industry and patients, but it's now also with different types of industry and different types of, experts within the academia that work with, other types of questions. So, we probably we need new,

01:37:45:07 - 01:38:24:13

Kristina Levan

New, meeting points where we can, present and discuss this. Quite these questions. So that's interesting. I think, yeah, let's look at it, from a year now or two and see if we can initiate and what has happened, because I think there are more people understanding this now. And we can also see that we have connections to and people working with, data, that are connected and tried to develop, systems, quality systems that can be useful for, for aging.

01:38:24:13 - 01:38:27:24

Kristina Levan

Peace. So, yeah.

01:38:27:24 - 01:38:52:12

Christian Soschner

That I totally agree to what I said. The one thing is getting people into the same room from different sectors and just present work and listen to problems to have, and maybe there is already a solution out on the market that can easily be transformed to to other industries. And I think also podcasts and social media, will play a role in this process.

01:38:52:14 - 01:39:17:24

Christian Soschner

At the end of the day, what we are producing now is data and the with ChatGPT artificial intelligence. I mean, they all use this data, via YouTube. And I think in future I hope these tools evolve in that direction, that they also look into their data. When someone has a communication about a problem to face and use this data podcast to produce and social media produce.

01:39:17:24 - 01:39:39:10

Christian Soschner

Meanwhile, on a daily basis, a lot of people are publishing on social media and just, come up with ideas and say, okay, look at this post, or I look at this podcast and they were talking about the similar problem from a different industry. And when we don't prohibit the use of data, where in Europe we have, I think a passion for prohibition and for, for privacy.

01:39:39:12 - 01:39:46:03

Christian Soschner

But, if we allow this process, it can enhance a lot of industry in, in real time.

01:39:46:05 - 01:39:47:09

Kristina Levan

Now, I agree,

01:39:47:09 - 01:40:15:10

Kristina Levan

and it's very, it's interesting. And that would be, interesting to see what happens with when when we get connected because, I think it's important. I think maybe this is something that can put take with me into my new position, working as a business developer, the business radio Guttenberg. So, because then, in my colleagues are working in different types of areas.

01:40:15:10 - 01:40:29:06

Kristina Levan

So we have, really close, to each other. And we can probably connect and connect people and the companies with each other. If we just understand how to do it.

01:40:29:06 - 01:40:31:06

Christian Soschner

Yeah, that's that's great

01:40:31:06 - 01:40:48:02

Christian Soschner

to see. I mean, time flies. We have eight minutes left. We have, scheduled until, 330. So it's, it's already eight minutes to the to the endpoint. I would like I would like to focus the last part of the last eight minutes and, just use it for brainstorming and, future oriented questions.

01:40:48:04 - 01:41:12:05

Christian Soschner

Just open questions. It's just it's just ideas. It must not be accurate. And, if it doesn't happen. So it's just it is. Now when you think about Http and especially in the Swedish ecosystem, how do you see it in the next ten years? We are talking about 2035. How do you see it's transforming the health care system in the next ten years?

01:41:12:07 - 01:41:12:21

Kristina Levan

Yes.

01:41:12:21 - 01:41:45:15

Kristina Levan

So we expect, more products to be approved and to be introduced into the Swedish health care. Of course. So, and, and we think also that the patient groups might be, larger, so they would be more patient that will be treated, even with the ones that are already approved, they get second indications and they get, as we talked about in the beginning, that the patients get access to the these treatments already, early on, when they get the diagnosis.

01:41:45:15 - 01:42:22:06

Kristina Levan

So this way we get will increase the patient groups, and, and, I think it will be like a transition. It would make a big difference for the health care so we can treat people that did not, have any available treatment before, which is, of course, amazing. That's fantastic news. It will be very, interesting how and, costs will be handled.

01:42:22:11 - 01:42:46:11

Kristina Levan

I think, we see difficulties with, with, the authorities and, the public health care, how to handle the costs. So this would be an, I think, an issue how to how to do that. But but if the products also get sort of more easily, produced than that, the development costs will be and the production costs will be lowered.

01:42:46:13 - 01:43:13:19

Kristina Levan

This could also have an effect, of course. We see also other types of now we see mainly, blood cancers and a few minor genetic diseases. But what we see now is that we can have there are new products that are introduced in clinical trials in different areas, like autoimmune diseases, and, and that could of course, be, a game changer for these patients.

01:43:13:21 - 01:43:47:05

Kristina Levan

So maybe they didn't before they are in pain or they are, having, lowered life quality. They can have a better and improved life quality. And, and maybe no pain or less pain. And that would be, that's also, of course, amazing if you can get, better and better life quality and maybe you can, be a part of the, work, force for more years.

01:43:47:07 - 01:44:14:11

Kristina Levan

So you have to also, you know, put back into the context when you, when you calculate, on the costs and, and things like that. But we also would expect maybe products that be introduced for diabetes, for example, which of course is very, it's a lifelong disease. So if you get cured at an early age, that would make a big difference.

01:44:14:13 - 01:44:39:00

Kristina Levan

But I think we need to follow that development. And what is happening and what type of products that are, coming in the pipeline. And we have to have a good connection to the industry, I think, and also the academia, to understand what is coming and what is to be expected, and then we can prepare the health care for that.

01:44:39:02 - 01:44:53:19

Kristina Levan

Because and we would like to, to, to give patient access. Of course, this is very important and it's important for, for, I guess all Europe kind of European countries.

01:44:53:21 - 01:44:54:08

Christian Soschner

My final

01:44:54:08 - 01:44:56:20

Christian Soschner

question, time really flies.

01:44:56:22 - 01:45:01:17

Kristina Levan

When we have four minutes answer on the last one. I'm sorry. Yeah.

01:45:01:19 - 01:45:26:12

Christian Soschner

So I just, just want to stay on time for for you so that you can go to the paramedics. When we think about the future that you are talking about, and bring it into at the end into actionable advice for policymakers, for researchers, for investors. What are the three biggest challenges that would make sense to start working on now?

01:45:26:12 - 01:45:31:20

Christian Soschner

And solving that to make that future happen. What would be your recommendation?

01:45:31:22 - 01:46:11:21

Kristina Levan

So I think it's very important that, we look into the, the regulations and and and reimbursement pathways because if, if we, if we don't give access, to the patient for these therapies now, I think we will also send signals about, the future. So I think we need to understand how to better create faster, more flexible.

01:46:11:23 - 01:46:39:11

Kristina Levan

Regulatory and investment pathways. That is very important. And to better understand how the process is working. And now we have, I think I think not today, but now this, year, in the beginning of this year, we have, maybe this week we have a change in the A, so we have a joint, process for the European countries for some of the products.

01:46:39:11 - 01:47:07:15

Kristina Levan

And the camps are one of them. So, the European countries have sort of joined together to, to better evaluate the products. Join at the European level. And then when you would expect the countries to sort of follow, the, that evaluation when they do their, introduction in the country. So I think this is very important.

01:47:07:17 - 01:47:10:14

Christian Soschner

So it's basically a call for deregulation.

01:47:10:16 - 01:47:36:21

Kristina Levan

Yeah. But also I would like them to also support, the, so that the infrastructures, the building of the infrastructure. So of course, because we also need to, to have the capacity to to for the innovation and for further development and, and have the funding to, as we talked about earlier on, that we need to have the funding to be able to do this.

01:47:36:23 - 01:47:42:09

Kristina Levan

Expensive, development since it will be so rewarding.

01:47:42:11 - 01:48:06:20

Christian Soschner

That we need more investment capital. Definitely, definitely. In Europe, the US is still far ahead from Saudi Arabia. It's it's pretty much the same to put a lot of money into that. And in Europe. But we really need this is venture capitalists risk capital that is available for development also for ATM peace. I think we, we still have a huge, huge, gap there.

01:48:06:22 - 01:48:15:01

Christian Soschner

Yeah. Christina, is there anything open that you would like to address at the end of our podcast?

01:48:15:03 - 01:48:38:21

Kristina Levan

No, but I think it's important to say that this is a very, exciting area effect. Didn't really come through. I think maybe it did, but we also need, you know, we need the young people to focus and to try to to get the interest up for the young people to, to get, educated within the field and try to, and connect with people working in TNP field.

01:48:38:21 - 01:49:04:02

Kristina Levan

And there are courses and educations now. And if you are a student and, you want to know more, there are also, platforms where you can find courses, around Europe badly. So, I think it's, we need the young people to, to commit to the AT&T field.

01:49:04:04 - 01:49:20:23

Christian Soschner

And I totally agree. And, if it makes the life for patient, much better performance much better. I mean, it's it's, worthwhile pursuing and it's it's really promising. What's going on in that field. Christina, thank you very much for this conversation. I enjoyed it a lot and learned a lot about, TMP.

01:49:21:00 - 01:49:24:18

Kristina Levan

And thank you. That's really inviting me. It was great. Yeah.

01:49:24:20 - 01:49:30:22

Christian Soschner

You're welcome. And let's keep working on making the world a better place for the kids.

01:49:30:24 - 01:49:42:10

Kristina Levan

Perfect. Thank you. And all about. I know so much more about, the the marathons, which was a little bit unexpected, but great. Thank you.

01:49:42:12 - 01:49:45:22

Christian Soschner

Thank you very much. And have a great afternoon and have a great weekend.

01:49:45:24 - 01:49:47:09

Kristina Levan

Yeah. You too. Bye bye.

01:49:47:09 - 01:49:48:13

Christian Soschner

You soon. Bye bye.

01:49:48:15 - 01:49:50:16

Kristina Levan

Bye.

01:49:50:16 - 01:50:20:16

Christian Soschner

Medicine isn't just evolving, it's being rebuilt from the ground up. Artificial intelligence, automation and point of care production are change everything. Today, Christina Lieven helped us understand why Atps are more than just science. They require collaboration, infrastructure and a new way of thinking about health care. If we get this right, we won't just treat diseases. We will cure them.

01:50:20:16 - 01:50:47:23

Christian Soschner

But this future isn't guaranteed. Regulations need to evolve. Costs needs to drop. And hospitals. They need to adapt. The big question here is who's going to lead the charge? If this episode sparked an idea, challenged your thinking, or gave you a new perspective, here is how you can help. Subscribe, follow and share this episode.

01:50:47:24 - 01:50:56:10

Christian Soschner

The more support we get, the easier it is to bring in even bigger guests. Deeper insights, and more industry changing ideas.

01:50:56:10 - 01:51:09:20

Christian Soschner

Every listen, every comment and every share makes an impact. It helps push this show higher and look bigger conversations and deliver even more value to you. Let's build this together and take it to the next level.

01:51:10:02 - 01:51:23:14

Christian Soschner

The future of medicine belongs to those who innovate, collaborate, and push boundaries. Stay curious. Stay ambitious, and keep questioning the way things have always been done.

01:51:23:14 - 01:51:29:21

Christian Soschner

Until next time, stay bold and hit that subscribe button.