EP 157 - Fabrizio Conicella: Why Europe Keeps Losing the Next Breakthroughs in Medicine

Europe has the science. The talent. The breakthroughs.

But when an idea feels too uncertain, our systems shut it down before it has a chance to breathe.

And with every safe bet… we quietly lose the next cure, the next Car-T, the next AI that could change everything. 

🚨 Risk-aversion, fragmentation, and bureaucracy are draining Europe’s innovation power—and nobody dares to name it out loud.

But Fabrizio Conicella, VP of Open Innovation at Chiesi Group, isn’t holding back. 

💡 In this deep, urgent conversation, Fabrizio shares how Europe can build the ecosystems we need to turn bold ideas into real-world impact—without compromising ethics, patients, or long-term value. 

🎧 Watch now to explore:
1️⃣ Why uncertainty, not risk, is the true frontier of innovation
2️⃣ The hidden reasons startups leave Europe—and how to keep them
3️⃣ How Chiesi’s “The Impulse” model flips corporate R&D on its head
4️⃣ What every policymaker, CEO, and scientist must change before it’s too late
5️⃣ A bold new playbook for turning visionary science into trusted medicine 

👤 About Fabrizio Conicella:
As one of Europe’s leading voices in health innovation, Fabrizio is pioneering how pharma collaborates across startups, data, and ethics. His mission: create environments where the best ideas don’t get shut down—they get built. 

💬 Quotes That Might Just Change Your Thinking:
(01:58:01) "Be bold enough to dream, but pragmatic enough to make it real."
(01:07:22) "Science is essential, but turning it into a product requires a different kind of wisdom."
(01:04:35) "Visionary entrepreneurs see the future and change the game."
(00:16:51) "Innovation today is no longer a race for ownership, but a journey of collaboration."
(00:47:55) "If the idea is truly bold, no pharma company can replicate it without you." 

⏱️ Timestamps:
(03:00) Europe’s Innovation Crisis: A Wake-Up Call
(08:19) Chiesi’s Bold B Corp Strategy
(16:26) Building Healthcare Innovation Ecosystems
(22:09) Predictive Medicine and Patient Data
(29:49) Pharma vs. Startup Ecosystems Today
(34:38) Why R&D Must Go External
(35:06) The End of Buy-and-Wait Pharma
(41:42) Ethics First: Pharma’s New Mandate
(44:06) Respecting Founders, Not Just IP
(47:23) Debunking the 'Pharma Steals Ideas' Myth
(54:10) Why Pharma Moves Slowly—but Must Adapt
(59:25) Market Acumen: Startups’ Missing Ingredient
(01:04:35) What Makes a Visionary Entrepreneur
(01:29:22) Embracing Failure to Spark Innovation
(01:46:01) Europe’s Risk Culture is Holding Us Back 

🔔 Help Us Grow the Future of Thoughtful Innovation
If this conversation sparked something in you—an insight, a question, a sense of urgency—help us keep it alive.
Subscribe. Leave a comment. Share it with someone who still believes bold ideas deserve a fighting chance.
Every action brings in deeper minds, bigger questions, and the kind of leadership our systems so desperately need. 

Book mention: The Venture Mindset

🎧 Watch now—and join the movement to rebuild Europe’s innovation edge. 

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:02:17

Christian Soschner

One thing is for sure.

00:00:02:17 - 00:00:06:10

Christian Soschner

The future of medicine. It won't come from control.

00:00:06:10 - 00:00:08:24

Christian Soschner

It will come from chaos.

00:00:08:24 - 00:00:12:01

Christian Soschner

But here is the problem. Most pharma systems

00:00:12:01 - 00:00:14:18

Christian Soschner

are built to manage and minimize risk.

00:00:14:18 - 00:00:22:24

Christian Soschner

But the boldest breakthroughs in the industry from Car-T cell therapy to neuromorphic chips.

00:00:22:24 - 00:00:39:11

Christian Soschner

They start, they live, they breathe and thrive in pure uncertainty. And unless Europe learns to embrace exactly that chaos, we will keep exporting our best ideas to border markets.

00:00:39:11 - 00:00:47:04

Fabrizio Conicella

And you need to understand the how much how big is your appetite for uncertainty, not for risk,

00:00:47:13 - 00:00:55:20

Christian Soschner

So the European problem is pretty simple. We treat risk as a number, but uncertainty.

00:00:55:20 - 00:00:58:10

Christian Soschner

It's not measurable. It's not linear.

00:00:58:10 - 00:01:13:10

Christian Soschner

But it feels uncomfortable. And that's why most systems shut it down before it can even speak. That means the next Car-T therapy, the next game changing technology like Crispr.

00:01:13:10 - 00:01:16:03

Christian Soschner

The next AI that predicts disease.

00:01:16:03 - 00:01:20:15

Christian Soschner

In Europe, it might be discarded before it's even understood.

00:01:20:17 - 00:01:25:21

Christian Soschner

Not because it's wrong, but because it's unfamiliar. And that's why it's uncomfortable.

00:01:25:21 - 00:01:33:13

Fabrizio Conicella

And you have to understand that at the beginning, it was considered crazy.

00:01:33:15 - 00:01:37:11

Fabrizio Conicella

It's such as, I don't know if you know, the concept of neuromorphic

00:01:37:11 - 00:01:45:03

Christian Soschner

Fabrizio Concha gets this inspired president of open innovation at Kia Group. He's leading a new model

00:01:45:03 - 00:01:46:16

Christian Soschner

that imports

00:01:46:16 - 00:01:53:21

Christian Soschner

a sandbox where startups, scientists and corporates play with the unknown,

00:01:53:21 - 00:01:58:19

Christian Soschner

learn from failure and design health care with ethics and imagination.

00:01:58:19 - 00:02:07:11

Christian Soschner

This isn't about owning ideas. It's about building an ecosystem where medicine, technology, and human values evolve together.

00:02:07:14 - 00:02:16:17

Fabrizio Conicella

I think that I will try to remove, country boundaries to create a unique market for pharma. It will,

00:02:16:19 - 00:02:44:09

Christian Soschner

But before we dive into this episode, a quick note from the team if this episode sparks a new perspective or even just makes you pause, follow the show. Leave a review wherever you listen or watch this episode, or share it with someone you respect. Every single small action helps us reach more mates and attract more World Cup guests like Fabricio.

00:02:44:09 - 00:02:53:08

Christian Soschner

And it also helps keep bringing you the kind of conversations that match the way you think. The more momentum we build, the deeper we can go.

00:02:53:08 - 00:03:03:23

Christian Soschner

This episode isn't just an interview, it's a roadmap for pragmatic biotech dreamers. The once bold enough to bet on what hasn't been proven yet.

00:03:04:07 - 00:03:09:09

Christian Soschner

It's really good to see all that. You have time today. How is life in Parma these days?

00:03:09:11 - 00:03:19:21

Fabrizio Conicella

It's nice. It's a little bit raining, but as usual, I think, spring is arriving. Easter is arriving, so we are open for the sun.

00:03:19:23 - 00:03:23:19

Christian Soschner

Oh, yeah. This is this weekend. Do you have any particular plans for the weekend?

00:03:23:21 - 00:03:35:14

Fabrizio Conicella

No, no, no, I will pass, Easter. I wish the family, quite a relaxing place. It will be a time of relaxing and toads.

00:03:35:16 - 00:03:42:14

Christian Soschner

But Parma is probably one of the best places in the world. Anyways, to spend the Easter weekend.

00:03:42:16 - 00:03:57:17

Fabrizio Conicella

For food and wine, and that's for sure. It's, it's a gastronomic experience, let's say. But it's not only Parma is the entire region Emilia-Romagna, that from that point of view is really, really attractive when somewhat.

00:03:57:17 - 00:04:08:12

Christian Soschner

I mean, can you update me a little bit about Parma, please? I'm from Austria, Vienna, and sometimes it makes just things up or I start forgetting things. Can you update me on your region? What is Parma famous for?

00:04:08:17 - 00:04:44:19

Fabrizio Conicella

Yeah, Parma is famous for cheese. For, ham. Prosciutto. Parma for wine. We have a good wine. And in general is, part of Italy that has a really, really strong agricultural tradition. Barilla, for example, the use of is localized in Parma. Parmalat is localized in Parma today is Lactalis. And, only in the last, let's say 50, 80 years, they start to have, company is belonging to different industrial sector, including pharma.

00:04:44:21 - 00:04:58:22

Fabrizio Conicella

But there is a quite famous cosmetic company called a dominance of just a few kilometers far from there. So they start to diversify the local economy. But their roots are in agriculture. Obviously.

00:04:58:24 - 00:05:06:08

Christian Soschner

I remember Parmalat from the Formula One races. It was one of the big sponsors, I think, in the 90s of the last century.

00:05:06:10 - 00:05:20:08

Fabrizio Conicella

And at a certain point they collapse suddenly a bit, and now they are restarting, let's say they are still alive. The company is still is still existing, simply has been bought by Lactalis, which is a French company.

00:05:20:10 - 00:05:29:04

Christian Soschner

When we look on the farmer side of Parma, what, makes Farmer in Parma so special?

00:05:29:07 - 00:05:58:02

Fabrizio Conicella

It was, let's say, a result of different things that happened in time. In reality, Parma is not a strong traditional farm. Everything started there before the Second World War, when, the Casey family, the actual owner of the company, the ancestor, decided to move from, to be a pharmacist to produce drug. And it started in a really small lab and, in Parma, downtown does more.

00:05:58:02 - 00:06:19:15

Fabrizio Conicella

Labor was destroyed during the Second World War about Parma was bombed, but by allies they moved a little bit out of the town. And, he revealed that the lab and, manufacturing plant, that part of the town, it was the eight quarters of Parma have to for five years ago. And,

00:06:19:15 - 00:06:21:23

Fabrizio Conicella

what was impressive was the growth of the company because

00:06:21:23 - 00:06:26:13

Fabrizio Conicella

at the beginning was really a small company, a small farm, a producer.

00:06:26:15 - 00:06:55:00

Fabrizio Conicella

And today we have around 3.4 billion revenues. It was an impressive growth, particularly in the last ten years. And now we really move out of the town because it was not possible to build the headquarters inside the town. We have two new building and we are thinking how to revamp the old the manufacturing plan. There is a plan called, Casey Garden is the name of the project.

00:06:55:02 - 00:07:24:06

Fabrizio Conicella

The idea is to create a place of interaction and the collision, between the company, the local community, and the external community. Also, the innovation unit will move in 2028, in that place, because it's, exactly one of the entry point to the company, one of the point where there is an interface, that links, what is happening inside the company with what is happening outside the company.

00:07:24:08 - 00:07:51:17

Fabrizio Conicella

So it was a story. It is quite an interesting story because the family was, the actual shareholder, the third generation, was were really the protagonists of the story. It was really linked to some entrepreneurs. Stick to saying so the take the two to risk, against all odds, the fight to fulfill, their plan and they succeed.

00:07:51:20 - 00:08:18:11

Christian Soschner

That's good. That's good to you. It sounds to me like a lot is going on in pharma in your hometown. And with activity, especially these days on social media, many people seem to be in a hurry and, cut off after 5 to 10 minutes from a podcast recording to come back later. Let's start our episode, with defining what they will miss when they don't listen to the end for the audience leaving after five minutes.

00:08:18:11 - 00:08:23:03

Christian Soschner

What are your three core messages you want them to remember.

00:08:23:03 - 00:08:49:00

Fabrizio Conicella

What they will miss. They will miss a different approach that a pharma company is trying to implement, to interact both with external innovation, but also to, let's say, share with the external, ecosystem something a share. The value for us is a value, and we are not a usual pharma company. We are a stage company, a B Corp company with strong ethical values that are justifying our purpose.

00:08:49:00 - 00:09:12:09

Fabrizio Conicella

That is in any case to impact on patient, but we are really committed in doing that. Also, from an economic point of view, from a strategic point of view. So we are not the usual, pharmaceutical B corporate, trying to discuss about how they are innovative, how they are better than others. We know that, we are humble.

00:09:12:11 - 00:09:38:23

Fabrizio Conicella

We know that we need to interact with each other because, maybe we have talents inside, but we have obviously not all the talents that we need to really impact on the final user of our products. That is, a patient is a citizen. So a human being that does a problem. And we would like really to solve that problem, to support the patient to survive and to leave a better than is possible.

00:09:39:00 - 00:10:13:15

Fabrizio Conicella

And in doing that, we are not limiting our focus to big markets where there are of money able to pay the drug. We try to weather health equity as a strong element of every business that we are launching. And the idea that everyone, everywhere has to be able to access the best treatment as possible is driving our activities, is driving also, our innovation activities is driving our behavior in less developed countries and in more developed countries, because I will.

00:10:13:17 - 00:10:30:20

Fabrizio Conicella

It is not only a problem of less developed countries. We have health equity issues in US, in Europe, in China, and we try to manage those problems in order to be impactful. This is what someone will lose a different story.

00:10:31:16 - 00:10:51:02

Christian Soschner

That's good to hear. You are doing a lot of work in open innovation and building ecosystems, which I think is extremely important, especially in Europe. Let's come back to that a little bit later and stay first with, your position in the pharma industry, what attracted you to healthcare innovation?

00:10:51:04 - 00:10:53:03

Fabrizio Conicella

It's it's

00:10:53:03 - 00:11:19:05

Fabrizio Conicella

a tricky question. First of all, I think that we have to to move a little bit back in defining what innovation is for us. Innovation for us is not. Technology is a process, is a process that permeated the passage from something to a solution, from a scientific results. To a product that is, offered to a patient.

00:11:19:07 - 00:11:53:23

Fabrizio Conicella

If we interpret innovation in that way, we can also understand the why pharma vertical innovation is changing is not simply the development of a drug you move, or from the development of a drug that is a product to usually technology push product. You start from a choose of a target, or for modality and to try to build something that hit that target because you believe is important, is the shift from that vision to a different vision that is, we need to solve that problem.

00:11:53:23 - 00:12:19:18

Fabrizio Conicella

If it's a drug, if it's a digital solution, or if it's a medical device, if it's an ultrasound, she's a service. It doesn't matter. We need to solve a problem of a patient. And the the passage from the need to the problem is driving our activity and justifying, from a certain point of view, the reason why we cannot rely only on internal capabilities.

00:12:19:20 - 00:12:43:23

Fabrizio Conicella

We are from a company we know how to develop drug. This is our competence. But drugs are only one component of a possible solution. For a problem that a patient or an care system, has. So we need to be a little bit more systemic, moralistic, more open mind that the more we find a degree of freedom in observing the external world.

00:12:44:00 - 00:13:10:19

Fabrizio Conicella

And in doing that, we need to interact with the system. We need to interact with ecosystems simply because the complexity of the actual life of the actual pharmaceutical sector require a multidisciplinary competencies. And the more the ecosystem is able to offer us such, really rich offer in terms of technologies, but also be in your vision, perception model.

00:13:10:19 - 00:13:39:20

Fabrizio Conicella

We can learn a model, we can grow and model. We can comply with our mission that at the end of the day, it's always to impact on patient. And this is something that is happening, I think across the pharmaceutical sector, more and more companies are trying to complement the core business, the drug development, with elements that reinforce their positioning from one side, but make easier life for the patient.

00:13:39:20 - 00:14:13:05

Fabrizio Conicella

And digital Alta is the, the the easiest sector where it's possible to do that. But we are developing a product for a chronic respiratory diseases. Probably 90% of the products are in related. So also medical devices. The in a later it's it's included in that vision and we already work in that direction. Most of our products are not simply drugs are drugs plus some ethical bone and plus, in some case a digital health element.

00:14:13:07 - 00:14:51:05

Fabrizio Conicella

And that the way your thinking move us, move our attention in terms of innovation from the traditional drug discovery, activity to something other another time is unrealistic vision on how we can solve the problem of the patient. Obviously, that approach doesn't mean that we have to became a digital company, a meta company, a service company, and this is the reason why there is a really strong justification in having an open innovation team, because we can interpret the relation with those different competencies in a completely different way.

00:14:51:07 - 00:15:16:07

Fabrizio Conicella

Is not a question of M&A patenting. Licensing is more a question of a long term partnership, long term collaboration. We call it the not transactional deal, agreement that are not based on the fact that we will be the owner of the technology. Simply we collaborate. It's something that happened, for example, in pulmonary rehabilitation. I it it was not my team in doing that.

00:15:16:07 - 00:15:45:15

Fabrizio Conicella

It was the digital health team. But the philosophy is the same. We didn't acquired a company able to date to develop and deliver pulmonary debilitation product. We partner, we support the company, we help the company growing. And the company is still independent and and existing at the same time. In that way, we were able to offer to the patient something that is useful in increasing the quality, improving the quality of life.

00:15:45:17 - 00:16:30:17

Fabrizio Conicella

And that philosophy, the philosophy that the collaboration is driving innovation more than ownership of the results, is the philosophy that drive our behavior together with the idea that we need to to start from needs. But at the same time, we need to be bold. We need to identify long term challenges and the that the equilibrium, short term, identification of solution to the problem and the long term challenges, moonshot, things that are really bold is characterizing every activity that we are performing and realizing, this is something that is happening in the sector.

00:16:30:20 - 00:16:55:15

Fabrizio Conicella

We are not the only one that are starting to think in that way. Every companies entire thing, that challenge in a different way. But there is an impact on the external ecosystem, the external ecosystem move to be seen to be a place where there are opportunities to a place where it is possible to build partnerships is no more a market approach.

00:16:55:18 - 00:17:34:11

Fabrizio Conicella

It's something of different is more a collaborative approach. I am really believing that, purpose, collaboration and agility has to come together. We need a purpose. And as I told you before, we have a strong purpose. We need agility because we need to be flexible. We need to move to the usual paradigm of big corporates slow decision risk aversion to a different paradigm where the flexibility is increasing the capability to be agile, to interact with, organizations that are smaller than us, but more smarter than us, smarter than us is increasing.

00:17:34:11 - 00:18:03:01

Fabrizio Conicella

So we need agility, and we need to learn how to collaborate with the organization because innovation is, game that is, played by teams, not by euros, the year or culture. We have the scientist that was able to drive and grow is probably has probably ended. There is no more the reality today. We need a team, a multidisciplinary bio diverse.

00:18:03:01 - 00:18:27:24

Fabrizio Conicella

So let's say team where there are different competencies, different way to see the problem, different capability to interpret the solution. Because in that way we can be holistic. If we are holistic, we can be more sustainable. And sustainable innovation is one of our driver. We would like not only to solve the problem of the patient, we would like to impact positively on the planet.

00:18:28:01 - 00:18:41:08

Fabrizio Conicella

We would like to impact positively on the people. So we need that. Such a holistic approach and the realistic approach could only derive from different perception that are integrated in a common vision.

00:18:42:04 - 00:19:05:14

Christian Soschner

There's a lot to unpack there. Let's walk through it step by step. I have noticed a lot of questions, but I think it's really interesting to dive into this paradigm shift. When someone had asked me 20 years ago what the mission of a pharma companies, it's basically bring a drug to the patient as fast as possible. And in Europe, with the caveat on the local market.

00:19:05:14 - 00:19:22:21

Christian Soschner

So Austrian companies work for Austria and Italian companies for Italy. This would be my mission statement for any pharma company in developed. And you said now it's different when you had to describe the mission of today's pharma company in one sentence, how would it look like?

00:19:30:04 - 00:19:47:04

Fabrizio Conicella

analyze the mission statement of the first ten pharma companies, they are more or less the same. I would like to improve the life of the patient through my products, or I would like to solve the problem x with an approach based on epsilon.

00:19:47:04 - 00:20:21:02

Fabrizio Conicella

They are really similar. What is common, I think, is the idea that we move from the simple, statement that we are producing and selling drugs to a different state, and that is we are solving problems, the patient centered approach, if you will like to use that term, it's today the rule. What is different? I think that you can consider patient as a passive, receiver of a solution or as an integral part of the solution.

00:20:21:04 - 00:20:44:08

Fabrizio Conicella

Patient centered doesn't means that you involve a patient that you consider a patient, the proactive element of the, of the problem, we tend to consider patient, as a proactive element of the problem. And this is the reason why, when we are drafting the patient journey, trying to understand the needs that we can solve, we start from unhealthy patient.

00:20:44:10 - 00:21:10:20

Fabrizio Conicella

We are aware that the disease it's only one moment in the life of a patient. And if you analyze holistically the patient journey, you will discover immediately that also, from a pharma company point of view, there are a lot of opportunities that you can exploit. Our activities, particularly our external innovation activities, are not so much focused on drugs.

00:21:10:20 - 00:21:38:23

Fabrizio Conicella

Obviously, they are focusing on drugs. We are doing scouting for early stage, but we are exploring the prediction, problem, the diagnostic problem, the, adherence problem, the monitoring problem, all those problem that could obviously splitting sub problem are representing a challenge for a pharma company. The the blockbuster era I give you the product is the only product on the market.

00:21:39:03 - 00:22:13:22

Fabrizio Conicella

If is working 60% of the patient doesn't matter. Probably is no more real. Now more and more we try to personalize, to be more precise in our approach, but the only way to personalize is to understand the issue. Understand you immediately are obliged to take care of diagnosis a prediction, because the earlier you intervene, better easy and you are you take care about adherence because you need that the the patient will comply with the treatment.

00:22:13:22 - 00:22:49:11

Fabrizio Conicella

And if you are doing that, you need to monitor what is nice or what is good of those, of that approach is that you are collecting data and more and more the pharmaceutical world is based on data. Data move to became a the consequence and the results of activity two became the starting point of activity. The evidences that we are collecting from clinics or from our I experience, day by day experience are really important to be able to be more effective in what we are doing.

00:22:49:13 - 00:23:28:06

Fabrizio Conicella

And data are not only limited to the traditional clinical trial data, it's something of more complex. We need the data. Behavioral data about the patient, the patient are changing, are changing in time. We need the data to make coming from the market because we are not the only one doing something. We have competitors. And so the data became more and more an integral part of the analysis that we are doing is not easy, is not easy because there are really few companies around the world today are putting data at the center, but we try to do that.

00:23:28:06 - 00:23:56:13

Fabrizio Conicella

We are in that direction. The data based company will be probably the reality in the future, and data will became the real, value of the company. Obviously the company are based on R&D, these based on scientific data. Moving from that paradigm to the patient data is different because you have to add the layer of complexity is not simply the efficacy of a drug.

00:23:56:13 - 00:24:29:21

Fabrizio Conicella

It's something else different. Where is the patient? There is a link between, I don't know, the pollution in a specific territory. And, the diseases, there is a huge, problem. So younger are less compliant. The older, you increase the complexity. You need to collect the data that are coming from different sources, and you need to be able to analyze the AI helps, but to understand that because the analysis it's only one part of the game, you have to understand.

00:24:29:21 - 00:24:59:19

Fabrizio Conicella

You have to extract inside and to make it inside actionable. And this is a challenge for many pharma company. They are using the opposite to have a structured and standard process to develop drug starting from science. It's called because science is the starting point is important, but once the process starts, the process is made in a silos with really few interaction about the external environment, the process.

00:24:59:19 - 00:25:47:23

Fabrizio Conicella

The project is analyzed only on the data coming from the project. And this is a danger. This is really, really a terrible approach because it's not more aligned with what is happening in the real world out of the pharma company, but many pharma companies are moving in that direction. So, it's it will be probably the rule in ten years from now, particularly for, products that are conceived or to treat chronic diseases or to treat, really life threatening and phases and diseases, because that's are the two main area where there is a really strong medical need, the chronic diseases, because most of the chronic diseases that we have are treated with, symptom

00:25:47:23 - 00:26:17:01

Fabrizio Conicella

management approach. So we are not curing the disease. We are managing the symptom. And the big shift will be to move toward disease modifying solution. We cure the disease. We stop the disease for the acute phase is more is more tricky. Stroke or transplantation. Other events in the life of a human behind the tragic.

00:26:17:03 - 00:26:50:03

Fabrizio Conicella

Another time. We need to be able to intervene as soon as possible. Better as possible. And to do that, we have to take care about the quality of life, not only on the solution, because the diseases is not the patient. The patient has different need, and we have to take care of that. What does it means practically? It means practically that we can not only develop drugs, but we have to understand the how to manage the entire problem with all the different aspect of the problem.

00:26:50:05 - 00:27:14:16

Fabrizio Conicella

It doesn't means that pharma companies has to be came up agrifood company because we have to take care of food. But I was involved with the before to join kids in a project where a pharma company was taking care of the food that cancer patient has to take to increase antioxidant. And this is a really good example, is a is a pharma company duty?

00:27:14:16 - 00:27:35:00

Fabrizio Conicella

No. But they take care of patient and agrifood. The food that you are eating could support you in a really difficult moment. After a chemotherapy. And this is a really good example, I think, or how there is a shift in the focus of pharma company.

00:27:35:11 - 00:28:05:18

Christian Soschner

I love the approach that you are taking, but I think back to the three decades, I think the the pharma mission was really treat a disease, and that's it. And bring the product to the patient as fast as possible. You now mentioned that today your company wants to fuel the situation holistically. They wants to look at the entire problem, not just the disease, the endpoint of the disease, but the progression of the disease and how the disease interacts with the patient and how the patient is included in the health care system.

00:28:05:20 - 00:28:18:05

Christian Soschner

You mentioned that in ten years from now, this holistic view will be normal in the industry. Can you describe what it means for drug developers? How would the industry look in ten years, and what does that mean for drug developers?

00:28:18:08 - 00:28:45:21

Fabrizio Conicella

Obviously as a company we are selling drug, so drugs are still the main focus of our activities and probably it will remain in the future. So it's not true. The pharma company will destroy their actual business model. The only difference is that the drug will be one part of the solution that we will deliver to the patient, and in doing that, pharma company will start to internalize a little bit of competency.

00:28:45:22 - 00:29:09:20

Fabrizio Conicella

Today, they don't deliver. The pharma sector is quite conservative, for example, in terms of AI, data management and so on. So we we need to increase that kind of competencies. We need to increase the competence that we have able to exploit the interaction with the external ecosystem. We will have a more, this centralized way to manage pharma company.

00:29:09:20 - 00:29:52:21

Fabrizio Conicella

Why the centralized it because of the personalization approach will require also cultural encounter with personalization. It will be a smaller evolution that we will have. But at the end of the day we will need to create ecosystems around us. It ecosystems that are composed by complementary actor. It's something that is happening. If you seen to drug discovery and AI drug discovery today, most of the pharma companies have agreements with small startups that are leading around the pharma company that are interacting with the pharma company, but they are part of, big ecosystem, and they can interact with multiple pharma companies.

00:29:52:23 - 00:30:27:17

Fabrizio Conicella

That way of thinking, where there is not the ownership of the relation, but the relation is Sharad could be part of the future. Obviously the pharma companies are in competition. We are in competition with some friends that is bigger than ours. And so we have also to put in competition the ecosystems that we are able to build. But that ecosystem approach is not today part of the normal DNA of a pharma company is not simply the string of third of a supply chain is different.

00:30:27:19 - 00:30:55:15

Fabrizio Conicella

You need to have a flexible ecosystem. The change in time that depend on the depend on the needs that you would like to fulfill, that maybe are including relations with companies that are completely different than your company. The example that I made about the, the, the food, the cancer patient and the pharma companies clear that pharma company partnered with a company that was not on the healthcare pharma company.

00:30:55:17 - 00:31:20:03

Fabrizio Conicella

They were working in a completely different sector. And this is interesting because if you approach holistically the problem, a lot of opportunities are in front of you. You can really follow, let's say, a blue off Sen approach. You can create your market from a certain point of view, and the flexibility inside the ecosystem and the capability to manage those relation.

00:31:20:03 - 00:31:51:07

Fabrizio Conicella

We factor the data ranging from the university to another corporation. Will became, I think, a competitive factor. Another time. It is innovation because you are managing a process that drive a to a different solution. Also, if it is not technological managed innovation is existing. Organizational innovation is existing business model innovation. And this is another element that is part of, of the discussion.

00:31:51:08 - 00:32:18:07

Fabrizio Conicella

It is innovation. And what they think pharma company will become in the future is that they will be not only in the engine, but they will be innovation engine interpreting R&D as a one part of the innovation model that they will implement. If you analyze what the the first ten pharma companies are doing, you will immediately identify elements of that vision.

00:32:18:09 - 00:32:28:23

Fabrizio Conicella

There are more and more pharma company that are interacting with AI companies. This is normally AI is fashion. It's it's useful, by the way. Not only fashion, but they have

00:32:28:23 - 00:32:31:18

Fabrizio Conicella

starting to interact with cosmetic company,

00:32:31:18 - 00:32:53:03

Fabrizio Conicella

agro food company, service company. If you think to some companies that are trying to integrate the last mile opening, e-commerce shop, and this is the way that is following today, try to approach holistically the patient at the hand.

00:32:53:03 - 00:33:18:18

Fabrizio Conicella

The pharma company needs to make money. They need to sell drugs. Simply, they will sell drugs in a different way, trying to complement the drugs with different elements that will, different to the author. That is critical, at the same time increase the impact on the patient. And this is the second element, but there is also a pharma economic consequence.

00:33:18:20 - 00:33:39:14

Fabrizio Conicella

Probably it will become more convenient at health system level, because if you manage the problem, you manage the different phase of the problem. If you simply sell the drug, your economic evaluation is made on the drug. It's change. Also the paradigm from that point of view,

00:33:39:14 - 00:33:41:04

Fabrizio Conicella

that's clear.

00:33:41:06 - 00:34:02:15

Christian Soschner

Let me ask you a follow up question to that path, especially the ecosystem building. When I think back in history, the how the pharma model evolved, I think before the 70s or before the 80s, it was mostly pharma. Does it all internally. So it's a big, big company. And from R&D to the patient to cover the entire value chain.

00:34:02:17 - 00:34:24:18

Christian Soschner

Then there was the Genentech moment in the 80s where venture capitalist shifted the paradigm and said, now look, let's take it outside. Let's play around innovation. Because as you mentioned, innovation is not in the DNA of new organizations. Pharma would be better off in just serving the patient and let smaller entities to the entire innovation process funded by resources.

00:34:24:20 - 00:34:41:15

Christian Soschner

And now comes the next paradigm shift where you say, now we are going to watch ecosystems. My question to you is why is running an open innovation platform into an ecosystem building superior to the old model that we have in the pharma industry? What makes it better?

00:34:42:02 - 00:35:10:19

Fabrizio Conicella

Let's start from Sunday to today. On average, more or less 50% of the pipeline of pharma companies came from outside. So this is the first, let's say, break that we have to put on the table. Pharma company have R&D productivity issue. They have a need. The external world, the small companies, the paradigm of the 80s, 90s. It's offering innovation is filling a gap.

00:35:10:21 - 00:35:18:15

Fabrizio Conicella

Why we need to move from that clarity, simply because the complexity of the solution is increasing. And the

00:35:18:15 - 00:35:21:00

Fabrizio Conicella

if the the complexity is increasing

00:35:21:00 - 00:35:40:08

Fabrizio Conicella

the traditional way. Okay, I wait that venture capitalists invest in a company, I wait and that the company reach a certain stage of clinical, development at that point I buy is no more working because we have today biotech company that are reaching the market.

00:35:40:10 - 00:35:59:02

Fabrizio Conicella

So corporates have an increase it competitive pressure from biotech companies that are able to reach the market. They need to move quicker and in a smarter way, quicker. Obviously for a big company is always an issue

00:35:59:02 - 00:36:02:09

Fabrizio Conicella

because companies need standardization, need

00:36:02:09 - 00:36:20:08

Fabrizio Conicella

processes and the standard deviation of processes gains flexibility and speed. But at the same time, it's possible to do something smarter means that that we can not simply think we can buy everything because it's not true.

00:36:20:10 - 00:36:55:08

Fabrizio Conicella

We have to return back in the innovation process, intersecting at early stage, at the opportunities with a higher degree of risk. And we have to engage those opportunities, keeping the risk out of the company boundaries. How we can do that, we can do that. Simply interacting with actors that could, let's say, manage the risk for us. It could be the startup, it could be incubator, accelerator, technology transfer office, investors.

00:36:55:10 - 00:37:25:12

Fabrizio Conicella

But that kind of relation is not simply a firing forget activity. You need to build trust. You need to be mid at at least a mid term partnership when you have that network of factory investors, accelerator, incubator, university, the result is that you have your ecosystem is an innovative ecosystem is not. The entire ecosystem that you need is an ecosystem that could change in time because today maybe it's linked to I.

00:37:25:12 - 00:37:54:16

Fabrizio Conicella

Only to give you an example, tomorrow will be linked to, I don't know, gene therapy in chronic diseases. You will have that flexible and moving ecosystem that the will touch each other. They will complement each other more. You are able to have a diversified ecosystems. More you will be novelty because the real innovation is happening at the interface as of different award.

00:37:54:18 - 00:38:26:20

Fabrizio Conicella

If you work at that interfaces and you work at that interfaces AI plus gene therapy or AI plus biomanufacturing or AI place, I don't know what you will be really innovative. Where is the secret? Is the knowledge of the technology? Probably not. Is the capability to implement the process the secret? This is the value, and this is the reason why we interpret innovation as a process as not as a technology, as specific technology.

00:38:26:23 - 00:38:33:13

Christian Soschner

Can you walk me through the definition of the innovation process at your company? Authentic, particularly interesting.

00:38:33:19 - 00:39:04:21

Fabrizio Conicella

Yeah. It's, when I, when I tell that when I tell you that is a process is because we believe that the innovation pass through different stages. There is the creativity moment. There is the what we call the concept generation moment. And there is the implementation moment, the creativity moment start from needs or problems, because you have to transform the need in a problem to be solved with the.

00:39:04:23 - 00:39:30:05

Fabrizio Conicella

And this is something that we are done internally, but we are also realizing externally we are interacting with external actors that are proposing Gaza creativity results when we move from the idea to the concept is because we are trying to understand if a crazy idea, it's feasible, not all the crazy ideas are feasible.

00:39:30:05 - 00:39:34:01

Fabrizio Conicella

So there is a triage process,

00:39:34:01 - 00:39:40:23

Fabrizio Conicella

and if the triage process is positive, we move to the implementation phase and the implementation phase.

00:39:41:00 - 00:40:10:09

Fabrizio Conicella

It's based on let's say three steps. The first one is, we use the term a pilot project, a small project with the idea to do the experiment, the feasibility study, the validation activity. They are really small project quick and dirty. Let's say, three months, six months maximum. If the project is positive, we tend to move to co-development activities for a certain period of time.

00:40:10:11 - 00:40:37:22

Fabrizio Conicella

As I told you before, we tend to manage the risk trying to impact on the company core business less as possible. So sometimes the risk is managed outside the company. And this is the reason why we need the ecosystem. The ecosystem actors, social support network for the development of the innovation and the if the core development project is positive, we can move to more traditional transactional relation.

00:40:38:01 - 00:41:00:07

Fabrizio Conicella

This is more or less, the framework that we try to implement. And the, our role is obviously to understand a little bit about the technology that's sure. But we became crazy about the need. The we have a really market oriented approach and we became crazy about the process.

00:41:00:07 - 00:41:03:15

Fabrizio Conicella

We are really committed in implementing

00:41:03:15 - 00:41:11:04

Fabrizio Conicella

the process, following some rules so that, we define that the, why we need to do that.

00:41:11:04 - 00:41:45:21

Fabrizio Conicella

There is a problem of this shift of efficiency, obviously, but there is also a problem of coherence. If you are saying that you would like to impact on patient, that the impact on patient will be a key priority, you have to keep the priority on the process. We will like to impact positively on planet. This is another element that we have to consider, across the entire project, that is not only a problem of future profits, it's something of more deeper.

00:41:45:23 - 00:42:12:03

Fabrizio Conicella

There are variables or criteria that have to be are gonnago. Also, if they are against that, the simple fact that that we will make money, this is another time, the reason why I told you at the beginning we are a different pharma company. From that point of view, we are really ethical. We need to bring the as the, solution to the patient.

00:42:12:05 - 00:42:44:01

Fabrizio Conicella

And in doing that, we are making money. But market demand is giving us the prosperity. And the prosperity permit us to do that another time. It's really, virtuous circle. And, the three steps are the, need the creativity, the, concept generation and the implementation are characterizing our innovation process. Obviously, they could be personalized depending on the typology of needed that you would like to solve.

00:42:44:03 - 00:43:14:01

Fabrizio Conicella

They require internal collaboration with all the other company functions that are synergistic. We are not alone. We are a small team, but we are interacting with the business unit. We to in the with legal finance h.r every company function that is relevant, it's involved. It's a process that could be applied for digital medtech, even traditional pharma products.

00:43:14:03 - 00:43:43:03

Fabrizio Conicella

And these are product. That is a process that has been a really, really standardized the following. The AI is all technical norms 56,000 series. So we tried to align and what we are doing to the best the rules that are existing around the world. But at the same time, we try to adapt the process and the rules to our core values.

00:43:43:05 - 00:44:10:16

Fabrizio Conicella

So it's a compromise is a smart compromise, in our opinion, that permit to create a win win relation with external stakeholder. And this is a key point. We would like to permit the the growth of the external stakeholder. We are not interested in killing the external stakeholder only. To give an example, this is one of the reasons why we tend to avoid to use traditional in licensing approach.

00:44:10:20 - 00:44:44:13

Fabrizio Conicella

Obviously we are in licensing patent, but when you realize a patent, you are aware that at least the 50% of the knowledge linked to that patent is in the brain of the original scientist, you are only buying 50% of the knowhow, and this is something that we would like to avoid. We need a win win relation because we know that the transfer of knowledge takes time and the particular if is the case of a startup, we need the win win relation because we have the maximum respect for the entrepreneur.

00:44:44:15 - 00:45:17:11

Fabrizio Conicella

We are aware that someone decided to, take an initiative to develop something of crazy of of crazy merit. Respect is not simply someone that has to be. Let's say price said the to obtain a the maximum. It's someone that could be a partner. If you align the purposes, you will be more effective and more impactful. And the same happens for a venture capitalist.

00:45:17:13 - 00:45:46:01

Fabrizio Conicella

We think that venture capitalists could be partners in doing that, not because we are putting money in the fund, but because in that way we are validating a technology where the venture capitalists could, could put a better. We are lowering the risk also for the venture capitalist. It's, triangle of interest. And our goal is to have a win, win, win a relation and not simply to maximize, what advantage?

00:45:46:03 - 00:46:10:02

Fabrizio Conicella

Vis-a-vis. The other advantages, and this is the ecosystem. And at the time, in an ecosystem, you have a competition relation. You are relation that are income that may be started from competition but arrive to cooperation. And we would like to cooperate with all those actors. If these are universities is the same, we would like to cooperate with a university today.

00:46:10:04 - 00:46:28:15

Fabrizio Conicella

The university is not a passive source of opportunities. Is a partner. And we know that if we created that platform, that collaborative platform, we can have more advantages than simply that. If we buy one patent.

00:46:29:01 - 00:46:47:06

Christian Soschner

That's an interesting point that you made that open innovation in companies is often a little bit problematic because of the size. So it's more that it's bigger. And when I talk to scientists, I usually recommend talk to farmer early to get a feeling of how what the market is doing. That farmer has all the data and information.

00:46:47:07 - 00:47:14:10

Christian Soschner

It's really important. And then they get a push back and say, wait a minute. When we talk with a pharma company about our idea and they have much more resources to invite to, then they can just copy it and produce it themselves. Why should they make a deal with us? Isn't that risky that we present our early idea, which is sometimes in concept stage, early to pharma, and risking that they push and push us out of the market.

00:47:14:16 - 00:47:27:07

Christian Soschner

Can you debunk this fear and explain to scientists why, in your case, with your company? That's an artificial fear. And we should not worry about it too much because, the dynamics in your company are different.

00:47:27:10 - 00:47:59:03

Fabrizio Conicella

Yeah. Trust became important. Trust and coherence and transparency became important. Obviously, there are NDA that could protected scientist, that's for sure. But there is also another problem that pharma company cannot overcome. If the idea is too innovative, is not true. That pharma companies have all the knowledge you're able to replicate the idea another time, 50 years. If there is a patent 50% of the knowledge remain in the brain of the scientist.

00:47:59:05 - 00:48:28:23

Fabrizio Conicella

So pharma company needs to have at least a mid-term relation to be able to absorb. But there is a third element that is important why pharma company has to take high risk in on crazy ideas. When the create inside pharma companies, we have to eliminate the risk is true. They can potentially copy, but they have they the interest in doing that alone.

00:48:29:01 - 00:49:02:10

Fabrizio Conicella

Probably not. The pharma. The traditional innovative model of pharma company is risk adverse. This is the reason why there is a high attrition rate. Also in preclinical level, they tend to kill what demonstrate high probability to fail is not show that they fail, but they tend to kill. The opposite crazy ideas have are so high risk that pharma company could be super Teva but not absorbing immediately.

00:49:02:12 - 00:49:29:13

Fabrizio Conicella

And this is what is happening in many pharma companies. And the reason why pharma companies are creating. Let's say, sandboxes, where it's possible to play with that ideas. There are companies that have external vehicle that are doing that job. They are evaluating, they are investing. They are playing with something that is crazy in some cases that are internal function, that are doing that job.

00:49:29:15 - 00:49:58:12

Fabrizio Conicella

But when there is that issue, the pharma company need the scientist is not simply a piece of paper is the accumulated knowledge of the scientist that make the difference. Obviously this is more relevant at the beginning of the innovation journey because at a certain point, you know, it became a business as usual. The implementation phase is what the pharma company are able to do in a wonderful way because they are really efficient.

00:49:58:14 - 00:50:32:24

Fabrizio Conicella

But the creativity phase and the conceptual phase are still a little bit fuzzy. It's where the scientist, the original scientist, its key is where is not possible for a for a pharma company simply to overcome all the problem and say it's my job because they are not conceived to do that. Even pharma company that have a strong R&D, they need to be exposed to external idea, and they need to have a little bit of time to absorb those ideas.

00:50:33:01 - 00:50:52:15

Fabrizio Conicella

And the only way to do that is to be transparent and to keep the relation for a certain period of time, with a lot of respect for the original originator of the scientific results. And this is the way that we are that you are following. We have a lot of respect for the original entrepreneurs or the original scientists.

00:50:52:17 - 00:51:33:02

Fabrizio Conicella

We didn't try to absorb immediately. To like a patent. We need time. We need time to understand. And that time require, strong collaboration with the external actor is not simply a question of we use a service some pharma company are simply buying a result. It's not so easy because if you buy a result, and the result is something that you don't know is not useful, and that the complexity today require you to interact with multiple scientists at the same time.

00:51:33:04 - 00:51:54:01

Fabrizio Conicella

So we tend to work in that way. And that the story of is it's based on that transparent relation. Another time we are a company, we would like to maximize our profit because this is the way to do research. But it's possible to do that activity in a really ethical way.

00:51:54:01 - 00:52:15:13

Christian Soschner

That's a great point that you mentioned, before that the pharma company needs time to evaluate the net year and the concept before they step into an in-licensing deal. And, a few minutes ago, you mentioned that the speed in pharma usually is a little bit slower because of the size, since the process is which you need when you want to bring drugs to the patient.

00:52:15:13 - 00:52:39:23

Christian Soschner

It's just a regulatory requirement. When you look at the startup world, we have this small agile teams moving very fast and doing still research. They are not exploring only one solution, but also have still, their part are open to exploring, play around very often I hear the argument it's so useless talking with pharma because they are so slow and we want to get a deal done in three months.

00:52:40:00 - 00:52:55:15

Christian Soschner

Can you explain to the scientists when they approach a company like yours or other pharma companies, what they have to expect and be prepared for? When we talk about time and should not worry that it is too slow and this is just normal.

00:52:55:18 - 00:53:25:05

Fabrizio Conicella

I'm smiling because I'm coming from the startup world. I remember that the first time that I was in a pharma company, it was not crazy. I was shocked in understanding that the signature of an NDA took a one month. I will use that to sign an NDA in one hour. Yeah, but it's true. Big companies have standard processes that are conceived for efficiency from one side and for, risk avoiding from another point of view.

00:53:25:07 - 00:53:51:03

Fabrizio Conicella

So is not a surprise. It has not to be a surprise that the pharma companies not immediately interacting, only to give an example of what is happening today. We go to an event, we meet a startup at the startups and does the deck from that point, we start the process, we evaluate the deck. We involve the different function in that pricing opinion.

00:53:51:05 - 00:54:14:18

Fabrizio Conicella

We decide it's good to continue is not good to continue. We try to understand the which kind of collaborative path could be implemented in case of interest. That process took one month, one month and a half, and I can understand the startups that are saying, come on, there are no tasks running. It means that they are not interested.

00:54:14:18 - 00:54:48:21

Fabrizio Conicella

That is not true. Maybe it's simply the internal processes that require time. And you have to think that we are interacting in parallel with 5060 startups. Only in in 2024, we evaluated it, interacted with around 250 startups that did the first three. It's a lot of work, to be honest, and the more the proposal is innovative, more is difficult because this is, similar to what we know.

00:54:48:23 - 00:55:15:00

Fabrizio Conicella

We know how to evaluate, but it's not similar. We have also to understand the how to evaluate. And so it's these not easy from a startup point of view. Don't worry if there is not an immediate feedback. You can, you can see a little bit this is not a problem. And you have to wait. One month usually is a good time into our first reaction.

00:55:15:00 - 00:55:47:01

Fabrizio Conicella

But it happened to me that we asked for and after six months to a startup, because maybe we excluded the startup now, today, and we realize after a couple of months that maybe it was interesting because there are other scientific data that are supporting, the scientific hypothesis behind the startup. So don't worry. Pharma company are tracking everything they have, plus internal platform where all the external opportunities are listed.

00:55:47:03 - 00:56:25:14

Fabrizio Conicella

So you will be many cases tracked in time. And in many cases, you will be following in time. So you need to meet the company several time before to reach the stage where the company is saying you are interested. Three four we are lucky because we have both internet today. It's really wonderful vehicle to do that. But do we have a B2B events all around the world Pharma company are proactively attending those B2B events and every pharma company is quite transparent about the entry point to the company.

00:56:25:16 - 00:56:47:17

Fabrizio Conicella

Every pharma company has the business development page, the open innovation page with names you can contact directly those names, but it takes time. We are a big organization and bigger organizations. Lower is the reaction. It's a question of let's say now all internal neural network.

00:56:47:17 - 00:57:07:22

Christian Soschner

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's completely understandable. And I think this is an important point that you mentioned that especially companies and businesses need to understand that. Also, licensing is more or less a sales process and it needs it's not like buying a chewing gum, like walking into a grocery store and say, okay, here is the money, give me the code.

00:57:07:22 - 00:57:29:11

Christian Soschner

And that's it. It's it needs a nurturing phase. So it's not just, one of you going make a deal. You need some time to get to know the department. And we are talking about long term relationships. Can you expand a little bit on why you see working together with a company more from the relationship building side and less from the transactional side?

00:57:34:17 - 00:58:08:10

Fabrizio Conicella

When we are meeting at startup, we are also evaluating the capability of the startup to develop further the technology. What does it mean? So it means that what we are evaluating, it's also the team. We are quite similar to a venture capital from that point of view. We need the team to demonstrate the transparency, demonstrate capabilities and demonstrate the commitment to for develop the solution, the technology to trigger the digital health product on the device.

00:58:08:12 - 00:58:32:11

Fabrizio Conicella

The team and the competence embedded in the team became a competitive factor for the startup. But something that we evaluate from another point of view. And this is a, let's say, a difference vis-a-vis the traditional transactional in-licensing deal, if finalizes a patent, I don't care about the team. I care only about the technology that is protected by the patent.

00:58:32:13 - 00:58:57:04

Fabrizio Conicella

It's a little bit different if I would like to acquire the company and do the M&A, because in that case, at the challenges, another time different, I would I need to integrate the team in my organization. But if you follow a collaborative approach, you need to have a partner. When you choose a partner, you evaluate not only for the rich or not.

00:58:57:06 - 00:59:29:00

Fabrizio Conicella

If is handsome or not, you evaluate the compatibility, the fitting. And this is something that we are evaluating and we are learning how to evaluate better and better. There is a cultural fitting, a scientific fitting, relational fitting and that you have to answer. But this is the company that I would like to partner with. This is the technology that I would like to implement or to add to my product.

00:59:29:02 - 01:00:00:12

Fabrizio Conicella

And this is the team that is able to develop the technology. We always see teams that are quite strong in thermo science sciences, only exceptionally a problem. Good science is everywhere today. But we are not seeing so many teams that have market acumen that are able to develop the science in something of of different. That is a solution to a problem.

01:00:00:14 - 01:00:30:12

Fabrizio Conicella

The market document, the capability to see what will happen ten years from now and the capability to be not, falling in love with science are all characteristics that we are looking for. Obviously, science is important. I'm not saying that is not important. We need good science. We need strong science. But science from an innovation point of view is instrumental to build the solution.

01:00:30:14 - 01:00:54:14

Fabrizio Conicella

We are not finishing with science. We are finishing with, pillar or a bottle of something that is used by a patient or a digital solution. It is used by a patient. Obviously science is embedded in the solution is maybe the most important part but is not the entire solution. We need something more and the team has to demonstrate to be able to do that.

01:00:54:19 - 01:01:09:15

Christian Soschner

And let's do a little bit on the team level. Level smiling because you made the similar argument ten years ago where said science is a given. There is so much great science out there. It's not a differentiator. You need much more with a team. But, I had the feeling that I get stoned by scientists. I have a business background.

01:01:09:17 - 01:01:31:22

Christian Soschner

So y'all know Christian, you don't understand science. This is absolutely not right. I also had, this this this nice sentence, which is also right. Science always wins. And I said, look, when you want to build a company, you need much more. Can we dive a little bit deeper into the team aspect? You said, when you evaluate the company, of course, you look at the science because it's a scientific product and we can't deny it.

01:01:31:22 - 01:01:47:24

Christian Soschner

But you want to see more in the team. Can you expand it a little bit more on what kind of skills and personalities you would like to see on part of a team, that it makes it a solid acquisition target or licensing partner for your company?

01:01:54:23 - 01:02:27:07

Fabrizio Conicella

entrepreneurial team, what we would like to see is, the capability to see the marketing perspective and to evaluate the marketing perspective, the capability to move from science to a product, and the capability to own all the scientific knowledge that is required to demonstrate that the the science that is behind the the business side, it's real is important, is impactful.

01:02:27:09 - 01:02:54:00

Fabrizio Conicella

Those three components, could be different. Usually they change, following the life of the startup. At the beginning, we have only scientist. I made a meeting yesterday evening with a company. Wonderful technology. Really wonderful. They are all scientist. When I asked them, what is the market? They were shocked. Come on. My idea is the best one in the world.

01:02:54:02 - 01:02:58:16

Fabrizio Conicella

I have the best science. You need to understand what is the market?

01:02:58:16 - 01:03:02:01

Fabrizio Conicella

The development of a drug is not easy

01:03:02:01 - 01:03:13:05

Fabrizio Conicella

if it's a drive. But in general, the development of a product is not easy. You have to pass two, three, four and five phase of development. You have to understand how to escalate what you are doing.

01:03:13:10 - 01:03:57:21

Fabrizio Conicella

You need specific competencies in doing that. The manufacturing competence, the clinical trial competence, the capability to understand which kind of supply you need. It's not easy. It's, industrial competence. Last but not least, the the market acumen. You need a strong strategic approach. And strategy means to understand exactly where you will land after maybe 16 years and to understand the where you will land, the means that you have to understand the how the market will be in 15 years from now, particularly if it's pharma 15 years is not a number I put on the table by chance.

01:03:58:00 - 01:04:38:03

Fabrizio Conicella

It's it's that it's time and you need to understand the how to pass through different phases of, development, able to reach that goal. It's, a big casting activity, but you start from the future. This is normal for startups and the that the market the common it's really not common. Sometimes we we we see companies that are simply saying our product is better of everything today is available on the market, forgetting that to bring their product on the market that they have to invest for 15 years.

01:04:39:01 - 01:04:40:20

Fabrizio Conicella

And the that capability,

01:04:40:20 - 01:05:05:13

Fabrizio Conicella

the capability to read the the future from a certain point of view or to have a so strong vision able to change in the future. It's what my from my point of view distinguish a really visionary, a good entrepreneur from a manager. The manager. I have a more short term perspective. They are able to manage what they have to do.

01:05:05:15 - 01:05:35:04

Fabrizio Conicella

They are not so much able to define what they have to do. And the the market, the command, the strategic acumen. It's became key if you are willing to develop a long term relation, because when you arrive to buy that company, you buy also the vision you buy also the capability to change the role of the game. And you need to have someone able to see the change and explain you the change.

01:05:35:06 - 01:06:01:23

Fabrizio Conicella

Communication capabilities are key for a startup and more and more because what they are doing particular in the first two years of life is the selling. Their idea is the only way to raise money and more. The idea is crazy different from the standard way to solve problem. To solve things more is important to sell the idea in a really, really, really wonderful way.

01:06:02:00 - 01:06:32:17

Fabrizio Conicella

Otherwise you are not able to raise money. Or if you raise money, you are not raising enough money. That is another issue for a startup. So communication capability, strategic acumen, are key. The capability, the operational capability, the capability to understand and plan how the company will develop are key. The scientific capability are key for the first year of life of the company, because without them we cannot start.

01:06:32:19 - 01:06:59:12

Fabrizio Conicella

They will be, let's say, adapted to the operational need at a certain point. Who is falling in love for science, is probably to increase the flexibility. You know that sometimes scientists are saying I'm not a scientist. So every all the scientist that are assisting to the log will say, no, it's not true. Every scientist is saying, I have the truth.

01:06:59:14 - 01:07:26:08

Fabrizio Conicella

This is the solution. I can demonstrate that this is the best way to solve the problem. And they continue to think in that perspective. It's good because this is a commitment. But from a company point of view, this is dangerous. You need to understand at a certain point that you have to transform your idea in a product. And for a company perspective, it's became key and you need to have it internal know how to do that.

01:07:26:10 - 01:07:56:19

Fabrizio Conicella

Last but not least, that is transversal to the three moment is the capability to understand how to create value, the value creation. It's what to justify an investment in a startup you invest or not because it's nice, because it's giving you back some finger. The value creation is another thing that has to be present in a startup. When we meet a startup, we ask to ourselves, where is the money?

01:07:56:21 - 01:08:21:04

Fabrizio Conicella

Not because we would like to become rich. Unfortunately, we we would be not rich, but because this is the way to sustain, to grow. If we are not able to understand where is the money, we have a problem. Also, if science is wonderful, it money is instrumental. Such as, other elements of our startup. We need money because everything is expensive.

01:08:21:04 - 01:08:43:07

Fabrizio Conicella

R&D is expensive. Commercialization is expensive. Manufacturing is expensive. We need to pay scientist simply. So where is the money? Is a really simple question that has to have an answer. And we are expecting that the startup cells are telling us on that idea. The money is the.

01:08:44:12 - 01:09:09:06

Christian Soschner

That's an interesting point. Let's walk through through the ideal team composition, because I think it's really important for scientists to understand that. And a large part of my audience comes from the outside. So when they want to make a deal with you and a scientific team approaches you to get, some sort of greenlight or approval, that the idea is really something to do with your capacity, see something on the market where it might fit in.

01:09:09:08 - 01:09:30:09

Christian Soschner

They should be prepared to not just stay in scientific team, but to expand the team. You're not talking about, just CEOs saying, I did all my research myself. And when I said there is the market, there is the market. And when I said it has value, it has value. And you can be sure I can develop it also, in not only the lab but also manufacture it.

01:09:30:14 - 01:09:52:20

Christian Soschner

But you want to see if you understand you right is first a business perspective, a business vision, and not only in paper but in person. You would like to see on the team, on the part, a person who has done the hard work and can explain to you what's the end point of the development. So you are now in 2025 and let's assume you are successful in 2040.

01:09:58:22 - 01:10:12:05

Fabrizio Conicella

We would like to see the competence. In theory, the scientist could be also someone that does, business acumen and someone that is able to do operations. In

01:10:12:05 - 01:10:16:01

Fabrizio Conicella

theory, practically practical is is impossible.

01:10:16:01 - 01:10:25:15

Fabrizio Conicella

And obviously those competencies changed depending on the level of development of the startups.

01:10:25:15 - 01:10:28:05

Fabrizio Conicella

Other beginning, they could

01:10:28:05 - 01:10:36:24

Fabrizio Conicella

be embedded in one person because obviously most of the analysis would be realized that the on the impact button science.

01:10:37:01 - 01:10:53:07

Fabrizio Conicella

But the moving in the innovation process, it will be mandatory to have expert not only someone that 5% of the time read the market research, but never did really something

01:10:53:07 - 01:10:58:12

Fabrizio Conicella

that is linked to marketing. We need the expertise. The expertise is lowering

01:10:58:12 - 01:11:02:03

Fabrizio Conicella

the risk of failure. And is not

01:11:02:03 - 01:11:06:13

Fabrizio Conicella

lowering 100% because also expert could make mistake.

01:11:06:15 - 01:11:13:06

Fabrizio Conicella

But we are aware about that. If we have all those elements on the table we perceive the risk

01:11:13:06 - 01:11:17:11

Fabrizio Conicella

lower. There is the science. There is someone that is able to

01:11:17:11 - 01:11:29:11

Fabrizio Conicella

transform the science in a product, and there is a someone that is able to understand the market. It's wonderful that we have all the comp, the basic competencies. It's easy.

01:11:29:11 - 01:11:40:20

Fabrizio Conicella

No, it's not easy because it's also expensive. So you need to reach that stage through different stage of development where at the beginning very maybe the scientist is a loner.

01:11:40:20 - 01:11:43:16

Fabrizio Conicella

We interact with universities. So we are also

01:11:43:16 - 01:11:58:19

Fabrizio Conicella

collecting project proposal. And in that case, usually the scientist is alone. Our goal is that we have if we find everything that is interesting, the proposal to support the scientists and to complement the the scientists knowledge.

01:11:58:21 - 01:12:32:08

Fabrizio Conicella

And this is good because we can share what we know. When I was saying, in describing our approach through the pilot project, the pilot project could be conceived in that way. They could be based on the development of a feasibility study, where obviously there is a, a stronger, element to link it to market. Because if you analyze feasibility, you analyze also the capability to be appealing for someone at the end of the process.

01:12:32:10 - 01:12:54:02

Fabrizio Conicella

So we need the we are on board by definition, but we need the boldness also from the other part of the table. Is not true that only because you are a Nobel Prize, you know what will happen to a specific patient in 50 years, taking in consideration all the technological and all the market trends. And we are not requiring that.

01:12:54:04 - 01:12:57:18

Fabrizio Conicella

We prefer someone that is saying, I don't know

01:12:57:18 - 01:13:01:12

Fabrizio Conicella

because we can build the knowledge together.

01:13:01:12 - 01:13:20:02

Fabrizio Conicella

It's, it's a competence, is a soft skill, let's say the capability to also recognize, the limit. We recognize our limit. We don't know why. The thing this is the reason why we are going externally to find for new ideas.

01:13:20:04 - 01:13:28:05

Fabrizio Conicella

But sometime we need to also the counterpart to recognize the limits, because in that way we can intervene, we can complement, we can

01:13:28:05 - 01:13:30:00

Fabrizio Conicella

synergize.

01:13:30:02 - 01:14:01:07

Christian Soschner

That's an important point. I think, that you make, It's not only about pitching science to a pharma company, but also to having the skill supports to build, the entire thing. I think this is something that, every scientist should hear. So when someone wants to found a company to sell it later or collaborate later with pharma, they should be prepared to hire complementary skill sets and not only stay in the scientific parts to increase their odds of making a deal with pharma.

01:14:01:07 - 01:14:12:09

Fabrizio Conicella

Absolutely, yes. Is the case paradigmatic at the beginning? The scientist, the entrepreneur as the entire cake that has a certain value. But if we will like

01:14:12:09 - 01:14:25:11

Fabrizio Conicella

to increase the value, we have to start to cut the cake in slices and the ownership of the slices of the original entrepreneur is shrinking.

01:14:25:11 - 01:14:28:17

Fabrizio Conicella

Smaller is smaller slices, but

01:14:28:17 - 01:14:37:13

Fabrizio Conicella

if you are doing that job in the in the good way, the value of one slice will be bigger than the value of the entire initial cake.

01:14:37:13 - 01:15:05:02

Fabrizio Conicella

In doing that, you need also to sell slices to complement that. Skills and competencies are, unless they are not already present at the beginning, but usually this is not the case. Obviously, that, way of thinking apply, if you like, as a pharma company to build a strong long term partnership. If you are only interested in acquiring an asset or in licensing a partner,

01:15:05:02 - 01:15:08:13

Fabrizio Conicella

in that case, a transactional deal.

01:15:08:15 - 01:15:12:15

Fabrizio Conicella

Usually pharma company analyze only science.

01:15:12:15 - 01:15:46:18

Fabrizio Conicella

But if you would like to develop externally something that is high risk, high reward, you need to be sure that your counterpart is able to complement and synergize and the will be able really to develop, because in that case, the more the company stay outside, the better is because if we intervene directly, we will be obliged to insert in this startup all our processes and the startup will start to became this law.

01:15:46:19 - 01:15:49:05

Fabrizio Conicella

We need flexibility.

01:15:49:08 - 01:16:24:15

Christian Soschner

Like with what is. I think it's the difference between doing tech transfer from a research organization and just plugging in the patent versus, putting the patent and the team into a corporate chain to later make a bigger deal with a pharma company. And when I sum up what you said for myself and tie my thinking to what you said at my recommendation after this call would be, it's good to start with science, but you need the visionary and the business acumen on both liability and then the person when the company progresses to increase the odds, you need.

01:16:24:16 - 01:16:38:13

Christian Soschner

Second, a guy or a woman who can. Menu understands the manufacturing part and scaling part. The the fourth skill that you mentioned, was the clinical development. You need to understand have.

01:16:38:13 - 01:16:45:22

Fabrizio Conicella

Some fees that I got a tech or a digital solution. You have to understand what does it means to to reach the market.

01:16:45:24 - 01:16:57:13

Christian Soschner

Yeah. And plug it into the healthcare system so not only reach the market, but to create a product and the solution that really fits perfect into every healthcare system in the world.

01:16:57:15 - 01:16:59:14

Fabrizio Conicella

And at the beginning, you have a really

01:16:59:14 - 01:17:04:05

Fabrizio Conicella

general idea that will be more and more, fine

01:17:04:05 - 01:17:13:05

Fabrizio Conicella

tune the following the development of the company. But you need to have a general idea at the beginning, because if you don't tell that you are not able to see the market,

01:17:13:05 - 01:17:18:00

Fabrizio Conicella

you are saying in me that I will treat cancer full stop.

01:17:18:02 - 01:17:21:23

Fabrizio Conicella

I'm good. I'm a wonderful scientist. I know how to treat cancer.

01:17:21:23 - 01:17:26:01

Fabrizio Conicella

No one will invest in that company.

01:17:26:03 - 01:17:27:13

Christian Soschner

There are so many other cities.

01:17:27:15 - 01:17:28:12

Fabrizio Conicella

Yeah.

01:17:28:14 - 01:17:58:07

Christian Soschner

Yeah. And the last thing that I heard that you mentioned, when we talk about the ideal part of an evolving company at the end point, when they come to you, is the value creation, not only the business acumen, but how does this translate into financial value creation? Because you need to finance the acquisition at the end of the day and, spend money back on, play money back to that ecosystem so that it can keep evolving, to, to, to to demonstrate that it would be a CFO or for example.

01:17:58:07 - 01:18:13:17

Christian Soschner

Also, I think when the startup teams get we see support and can show the uptake of the value and that some external party is already willing to pay and add something that would probably help. Also explain that it's true.

01:18:13:19 - 01:18:14:12

Fabrizio Conicella

Another time

01:18:14:12 - 01:18:23:13

Fabrizio Conicella

is not mandatory to have that kind of competence as the beginning. You can develop and including your team with that competence follow

01:18:23:13 - 01:18:32:12

Fabrizio Conicella

following the development of the company, and you will realize immediately there's some role change. And in time, the original CEO probably is a scientist.

01:18:32:12 - 01:18:35:15

Fabrizio Conicella

But after the first round of investment,

01:18:35:15 - 01:18:39:19

Fabrizio Conicella

the the CEO became, a professional.

01:18:39:21 - 01:19:07:23

Fabrizio Conicella

It's someone that is able to manage a company. And the same happens for the value creation. At the beginning. You can have your friends that is supporting you in doing account and see. But when you grow, when you raise a capital of million of euro, you will need the professional management of the money. And you need to be credible because you are asking maybe of for €10 million, and you have to demonstrate that you are able to manage €10 million.

01:19:08:00 - 01:19:33:18

Fabrizio Conicella

And the same for the value proposition. At the beginning it could be general, but the more you are advancing, more you are scientific data at the time justifying your hypothesis, more you can segment the market, understand exactly the indication, understand exactly the problem that you are solving and the demonstrating and explaining the value that is behind that solution.

01:19:33:20 - 01:20:05:18

Fabrizio Conicella

And you have to translate everything in numbers. Unfortunately, you have to move from I will treat cancer to I will treat glioblastoma. Impatient, age at the 2030. And this is the reimbursement cost. This is the value of the market. I would like to reach that percentage of the market. I'm obviously simplifying, but that kind of logic is the logic that has to drive, a startup from a pharma company point of view.

01:20:05:24 - 01:20:27:20

Fabrizio Conicella

More we are approaching the market. The more we perceive the risk command agenda and the more we are able to evaluate. It's not only scientist, it's not only science. If it's a partnership approach, it's something more. We need a partner and the partner has to grow. We Pfizer.

01:20:27:22 - 01:20:54:13

Christian Soschner

Yeah. And I totally agree. And I think for the scientists at the beginning of the journey, it's something important just to think through for themselves what type of personalities they are going to see their future and how comfortable they feel in a corporate setting versus in a scientific setting. I think it would really help, every scientist, starting with the company to run through this thought process after you find it out, laid it out before getting on the journey just to have an understanding.

01:20:54:13 - 01:21:10:20

Christian Soschner

What's my personality? Where do I fit in my the CEO, like Steve Jobs, who wants to build a huge team and a global success, or mirada, the scientists, like all the Nobel Prize winners who feel more comfortable in a lab and doing basic research. I think this is just a scaling question for them.

01:21:11:01 - 01:21:25:24

Fabrizio Conicella

Yeah, and there is not a better or worse there is not that if I'm not the CEO, I'm not important to the it's something that another thing it's linked to the personality of entrepreneur. But it's something that we are feeling.

01:21:25:24 - 01:21:29:15

Fabrizio Conicella

We we feel when there is someone that is saying,

01:21:29:15 - 01:21:35:09

Fabrizio Conicella

I am today the CEO because I'm the scientist, I would like to be the CEO for the next 20 years.

01:21:35:11 - 01:21:40:23

Fabrizio Conicella

The same time teaching at university. I do research at university. Is it credible?

01:21:40:23 - 01:21:47:07

Fabrizio Conicella

Yes. For the first two, three, five years. No more. At a certain point, you need to

01:21:47:07 - 01:21:53:21

Fabrizio Conicella

approach and to manage the problem in a professional way. You have to to, to to choose a I'm a

01:21:53:21 - 01:21:58:17

Fabrizio Conicella

scientist, a university professor or I'm an entrepreneur.

01:21:58:19 - 01:22:05:08

Fabrizio Conicella

There are scientist to decide to become entrepreneur. It is not impossible,

01:22:05:08 - 01:22:20:05

Fabrizio Conicella

but it's something that we are evaluating because this is important from a partnership point of view for the development, but is not important only for us, is important for every pharma company that is following that partnership based approach.

01:22:20:08 - 01:22:39:15

Christian Soschner

I think this is an important thing to understand for the people playing in the ecosystem. If you want to continue with your open innovation approach, in the ecosystem approach, the early stage companies needs to understand what they need to do to become a credible partner along the entire process and not get stuck at the early part and don't know how to move forward.

01:22:39:17 - 01:22:57:10

Christian Soschner

I think especially I mentioned Steve Jobs before. I think the genius move of Steve Jobs in 1997 was that he understood that and said, okay, what who am I? I'm the visionary. This means I have a weakness on the operational side. So I need Tim Cook. And he got Tim Cook in, I think in 1997 or 98 on board.

01:22:57:15 - 01:23:04:01

Christian Soschner

And this is exactly the thought process that every entrepreneur also in the in the biotech era.

01:23:04:03 - 01:23:09:11

Fabrizio Conicella

It's it's really similar it's really similar to develop a biotech product is complex, is not

01:23:09:11 - 01:23:12:09

Fabrizio Conicella

is not only what we can do

01:23:12:09 - 01:23:30:19

Fabrizio Conicella

in a university lab. This is probably 40% of the problem. But we need to move out of the university lab to go into a manufacturing plant. And the when you enter in that topic, you realize immediately, oh my God, how many complete technical competencies

01:23:30:19 - 01:23:32:16

Fabrizio Conicella

I will need to do that?

01:23:32:18 - 01:23:36:00

Fabrizio Conicella

Yeah, yeah, I can, produce

01:23:36:00 - 01:23:50:24

Fabrizio Conicella

a protein or an antibody in my small lab, small scale, but to do the same activity with a large scale required a completely different competence. If you realize that you are a wonderful potential entrepreneur.

01:23:50:24 - 01:23:55:21

Fabrizio Conicella

Yeah. Because you are unable vis-a-vis what you don't know. And

01:23:55:21 - 01:24:01:03

Fabrizio Conicella

another time, I would like to outline that we use the umbrella approach.

01:24:01:07 - 01:24:17:16

Fabrizio Conicella

We know that we don't know, and we know that we have to learn from external actor. This is what make open innovation interesting for a pharma company. It permit to the pharma company to explore what they don't know.

01:24:17:18 - 01:24:41:03

Christian Soschner

My apologies for sticking so long to this part of the conversation, because when I look on the market, in the last 20 years, I have seen so many teams that have the same team composition at the beginning of the company and five years later, there is no change, same competence. And then the wonder at the end of the day waiting to be signed, any deal with pharma companies and why is it so hard to get b c support and the VC part from?

01:24:41:03 - 01:24:53:23

Christian Soschner

But from our conversation I understand better that also, as a pharma company, you want to see this progress in the team, that they acquire new skills and the ticket new people on board who can tackle these additional problems.

01:24:53:23 - 01:24:55:17

Fabrizio Conicella

Besides science

01:24:55:17 - 01:25:22:08

Fabrizio Conicella

is like football team. If the football team doesn't win, you change the player or you are the player to the original team in order to increase the flexibility, increase the capability to cope with different situation in an entrepreneurial team is very similar. You have the starting team. You realize that the starting team is not, convincing investor.

01:25:22:10 - 01:25:54:08

Fabrizio Conicella

If you insist with the same proposition, probably you will receive the same answer. So you have to integrate the team. It doesn't mean that you have to push out someone. It need that you have to integrate the competencies that are missing and the organization companies, organizations, they are changing in time. And change is the only constant in our life for startups is they are following the same rules they have to change in their development, process.

01:25:54:08 - 01:26:00:15

Fabrizio Conicella

If they are not able to change, probably they have a higher risk of failure.

01:26:00:19 - 01:26:13:15

Christian Soschner

Yeah that's true. Let's come back to the big corporation problem. Struggling with innovation. You mentioned that the DNA of a big corporation is resistant to change. Why is that.

01:26:13:18 - 01:26:24:10

Fabrizio Conicella

All for surviving and for, what I call the linear growth paradigm? Big corporates are risk adverse because

01:26:24:10 - 01:26:52:06

Fabrizio Conicella

they tend to keep put the situation, the same growth level than in the past. If I'm growing 20% a year, I would like to continue to grow 20% a year. So I have a linear path of growth, in doing that, particularly if there is a stronger internal error in the there are, the not invented years syndrome that is growing.

01:26:52:08 - 01:27:20:14

Fabrizio Conicella

We have the best talent in the world, so we know what we have to do. We have, the habits, the standard habits, element you are from year, probably, you know, some advice, story. So my advice was a doctor. It was, saying, there are, increasing number of babies that are dying because the doctors are coming out from anatomy, pathology without washing their hands.

01:27:20:16 - 01:27:42:01

Fabrizio Conicella

It was fired. No one was trusting to some advice. And this is what is happening a little bit in a big company. You have your I believe you are bringing something of new. What they are saying no is not is not possible. We try it the ten years ago and we fail. So it means that is impossible is the same advice.

01:27:42:05 - 01:28:10:24

Fabrizio Conicella

Fact is not true. Maybe in ten years something changed externally. There is the problem that in big company we believe that the risk could be always evaluated. If you evaluate the risk, you avoid the risk. But there is another element that is uncertainty. You cannot evaluate uncertainty when you are dealing with early stage startup. You are able to appreciate uncertainty.

01:28:10:24 - 01:28:37:11

Fabrizio Conicella

No risk because the risks are 100% of failure. And you have to understand if you would like to put a bet or not. If you believe that these are rule breaking technology or not. Another time a companies tend to avoid the risk. So if you bring uncertainty on the table, they are quite conservative. And the last point is standardization of processes in big organization.

01:28:37:11 - 01:29:04:17

Fabrizio Conicella

You need to standardize processes for efficiency. More. You standardize processes less. So you are flexible. Yes, less. You are open to change the process. Another time you need to decide to do that. But it's easier to don't decide. And this is happening in every big, organization, not only in the industrial world, but also in the public big organization.

01:29:04:17 - 01:29:25:21

Fabrizio Conicella

You realize that the not invented syndrome is existing, that there is a resistance. Again, to change, that, there is the idea to avoid the risk because failure is a bad word if failure happens. Oh my God, we are looking for the guilty or the opposite. Who is working in innovation? Know that fail or this is part of our life.

01:29:25:24 - 01:29:49:03

Fabrizio Conicella

We need failures because we fail. Failures we cannot progress and we need the discontinuity. We need to fight against the I call it the gravity of the corporation is like a planet. They have a gravity. They attract. The opposite. We need to go out of the gravity because this is the only way to do something completely different.

01:29:49:05 - 01:30:13:16

Fabrizio Conicella

So there are elements that are common for every big organization that are also affecting the pharma company. But this is the reason why, pharma companies decide that the and they are still working in that direction to create the units that are working in a slightly different way. They have higher degree of freedom. They are exposed to the external world.

01:30:13:18 - 01:30:42:13

Fabrizio Conicella

They are doing idea and internal idea generation in a different way. Exactly. Because this is the way to try to overcome the obstacle is not easy. It's difficult also because once that you reach a result, you have in any case it to make compatible the result with the the standard processes of a company that point to drive.

01:30:42:15 - 01:31:08:13

Fabrizio Conicella

But at least in the idea generation, concept generation and problem analysis, you a higher degree of freedom. But it happens and is difficult for a startup that is going from outside to understand the data element, because they are not present in a startup where everything is flexible, everything change every day, flat organization, there are not hierarchical layers, speed and so on.

01:31:08:15 - 01:31:14:17

Fabrizio Conicella

It's difficult to understand. There are two cultural words that are, colliding.

01:31:14:20 - 01:31:37:01

Christian Soschner

Yeah. That's, that's great. I would like to dive into one aspect that you mentioned. Deeper. I have read this book. It looks like product placement, but it isn't anything like the venture mindset. And they had Alex Tan on my podcast, and you mentioned that you differentiate it in your explanation between uncertainty and risk. And this is something I have never thought about before.

01:31:37:03 - 01:31:48:03

Christian Soschner

Can you explain it a little bit in more detail why you make a difference between uncertainty on one hand and risk? And what does it mean for a big organization?

01:31:48:05 - 01:31:48:16

Fabrizio Conicella

You know,

01:31:55:04 - 01:32:16:07

Fabrizio Conicella

a probabilistic approach. What could happen in the future if a drug, you know, there is attrition rate, you know that you have x percent of parts of probability to fail, you know that there are those data. Probably you will have side effect so you can evaluate the transform the risk in a number.

01:32:16:13 - 01:32:46:05

Fabrizio Conicella

And this is, one of the traditional way that pharma companies are using when they ordinal weighting technology, they have a standard, the evaluation, scorecard, where you put the risk, you analyze the risk, you benchmark the risk, and you take a decision and the companies tend to use the risk assessment approach as a way to avoid the risk.

01:32:46:07 - 01:33:11:13

Fabrizio Conicella

Or at least to identify risk that could be managed. And this is what another venture capitalist some is doing. They are evaluating the company. They are benchmarking the opportunities. And they decide the level of risk that they would like to take to have a balanced portfolio. Uncertainty are different. You are not able to transform

01:33:11:13 - 01:33:15:11

Fabrizio Conicella

uncertainty in a number.

01:33:15:13 - 01:33:18:23

Fabrizio Conicella

When you start with a really crazy scientific

01:33:18:23 - 01:33:45:05

Fabrizio Conicella

hypothesis, you are not stable. If it's crazy to transform a the fact that they can fail in the in a in a number, you need to put a bet. If you trust the test nicer, it's more it's good feeling makes it to brain feeling. You put a bet. You cannot calculate the probability of success because simply you don't know.

01:33:45:05 - 01:34:11:08

Fabrizio Conicella

You don't have the element. And this is happening when you are working really early stage and the when you are working with technologies or business models because it happens also for business models that are completely different from what you know from the market standard uncertainty is something that has to be managed. Risk could be avoided, the uncertainty cannot be avoided.

01:34:11:10 - 01:34:39:16

Fabrizio Conicella

And so is you enter in that, way of thinking. You need the places where you can manage uncertainty. I was mentioning before the concept of sandboxes, you need sandboxes where you can play and you can learn, and maybe you can fail and you can restart from failure. You need the capability to extract the knowledge from failure derived from uncertainty.

01:34:39:16 - 01:34:47:21

Fabrizio Conicella

And you need to understand the how much how big is your appetite for uncertainty, not for risk, because the

01:34:47:21 - 01:35:16:00

Fabrizio Conicella

appetite of risk is a number. I decided I can afford the initiative to have 35% of probability of failure. Uncertainty is completely different. And the uncertainty, it's really relevant when you have, rule breaking technologies. If you think what is happening at the we site on all of, Carthy at the beginning, no one was able to understand exactly.

01:35:16:02 - 01:35:43:17

Fabrizio Conicella

Carty could be moved to clinics. Someone put a bet on the table saying, okay, there is a patent. I don't remember if it's Columbia, Stanford, because I don't remember. I put some money in investing in a company that is developing Car-T for oncology. At the beginning, it was really a bad. Obviously you have to interpret uncertainty with portfolio approach.

01:35:43:19 - 01:35:47:09

Fabrizio Conicella

You need to have a balanced portfolio of activities where there is

01:35:47:09 - 01:35:57:23

Fabrizio Conicella

also space for uncertainty. But the rest of the pipeline of the portfolio has to counterbalance the risk of failure. You cannot invest everything on

01:35:57:23 - 01:36:16:22

Fabrizio Conicella

crazy things, but at the same time, you need to know crazy things. You need to be aware that there are technologies that are growing, the things that seems today stupid, and maybe tomorrow will fail, but they can increase the the stock of knowledge that we have.

01:36:16:24 - 01:36:24:21

Fabrizio Conicella

Otherwise we risk to lose opportunities for, for growth, for progress.

01:36:24:21 - 01:36:34:19

Fabrizio Conicella

In the still in the history of human behind several times we embrace uncertainty. When,

01:36:34:19 - 01:36:47:04

Fabrizio Conicella

the US government decided to send the man on the moon, they were not able to understand the risk. They decide, let's send the the man on the moon 25 years.

01:36:47:06 - 01:37:13:17

Fabrizio Conicella

And every time they manage uncertainty and risk without, arriving to that point. I think that pharma company, if they would like really to change the life of the patients and to continue to invest and delineate a way to do things, but at the same time, they have to look for exponential growth opportunities, because exponential growth will really change the life of the patient.

01:37:13:19 - 01:37:45:00

Fabrizio Conicella

They will change the patient journey, they will change the patient life and the exponential technologies usually not always, but usually have two characteristics. The first one is that they are a the result of the cross-fertilization of different technological fields, and the second that they have a multiple impact on our society. From a certain point of view, AI is a good example is that the can is a software technology.

01:37:45:00 - 01:38:04:19

Fabrizio Conicella

Yes. That the required hardware store is, the interface of two words at the same time. You say I only conceived to support drug discovery. No, obviously, drug discovery is one of the 1000 use cases that we can identify. That kind of technologies is changing our life.

01:38:04:19 - 01:38:13:02

Fabrizio Conicella

And you have to understand that at the beginning, it was considered crazy.

01:38:13:04 - 01:38:17:00

Fabrizio Conicella

It's such as, I don't know if you know, the concept of neuromorphic

01:38:17:00 - 01:38:33:00

Fabrizio Conicella

computer. It's a silent trend that we have today. Neuromorphic computer are a computer that are simulating our brain. They have a one wonderful element that is interesting. They

01:38:33:00 - 01:38:46:05

Fabrizio Conicella

are working in parallel and not in sequence. What does it means if you replicate our neuronal network in a computer, they are quicker, faster and more precise.

01:38:46:07 - 01:39:19:00

Fabrizio Conicella

It's a trend that is silent because it's not known by the general opinion, but it's an interesting technological trend. It's risky. Yes, there are uncertainty. Yes, because maybe the paradigm is not working. But why to don't think how how to increase the knowledge around the that technology and the how why to don't think how that technology could change what we are delivering today to the patient.

01:39:19:02 - 01:39:38:10

Fabrizio Conicella

Quantum technologies is another example. We change changed. The paradigm is no more. The normal computer that we are using completely different computers with qubit, with a different way to understand, things, with a different way to calculate and to elaborate. It's crazy

01:39:38:10 - 01:39:47:07

Fabrizio Conicella

is no more crazy. There are already commercial services on quantum computing, but five years ago they were considered another crazy thing.

01:39:47:09 - 01:39:52:15

Fabrizio Conicella

Not that 50 years ago, because one of the elements that we are more and more aware

01:39:52:15 - 01:40:02:00

Fabrizio Conicella

is that the the time of the development of technologies and the time of absorption of technology shrinking everything is quick today, and we

01:40:02:00 - 01:40:18:24

Fabrizio Conicella

need to interact with those crazy technology because we need to explore. If you are not exploring your eyes to be not the loser, but you need you risk to be always the second, the third and the fourth on the market.

01:40:19:01 - 01:40:27:04

Fabrizio Conicella

We would like to try to be the first, and in doing that, we need to be exposed to crazy things.

01:40:27:04 - 01:40:53:01

Christian Soschner

That's an interesting take. But I try to come up with an example to understand it better. So for example, let's say with AI and with the chip sector, which is, not a big trouble making AI. Risk would be when someone places a bet on any chipmaker. Let's talk about let's, let's think ten 2010. So they invest capital in this chipmaker private, the private company or public company.

01:40:53:01 - 01:41:23:12

Christian Soschner

And the capital is simply at risk. This company can fail or not basically. So it can be gone out. The uncertainty element in this area is when you think back to 2010, the chip sector was mostly a cyclical business. Nobody thought it would be disruptive. And all the feedback I got back ten, 15 years ago was when you invest in Chip, you can make a little bit of money with the cycles, but, there is a finite amount of chips on the planet and this won't grow because in 2010, probably people we have smartphones.

01:41:23:12 - 01:41:46:01

Christian Soschner

When you people, you should have had the home computer offices. So the demand seemed to be, at the capacity, the uncertainty element in this area is whether or not this, this whole sector will become exponential. This is completely uncertain. Nobody can predict that. You brought the example with Katie. Same space. An investor putting money in a Car-T therapy.

01:41:46:01 - 01:42:02:21

Christian Soschner

Let's talk about 1020 years ago when the idea was really new and nobody was working on that. And it was not clear. Would this be an application one day? That's the risk putting money that the uncertainties is the question mark over 20 years. Would this be something someone or not?

01:42:02:24 - 01:42:16:07

Fabrizio Conicella

It's like that. If we can use the example of the cheaper the risks. Do we have to invest in the actual chip company? Understanding that the cheaper will follow a certain

01:42:16:07 - 01:42:31:23

Fabrizio Conicella

development, the uncertainty is, we have to bet on, neuromorphic computer cheaper, completely different technology. We don't know if it's working or not. Simply. We don't know, but it's cool.

01:42:32:00 - 01:42:34:15

Fabrizio Conicella

I'm a little bit exaggerating, but

01:42:34:15 - 01:42:52:23

Fabrizio Conicella

from an investor point of view, you have always that kind of choice. Are you investing in something that you know that where you can predicted to grow and you if you can predict the grow, you can predict the risk, or you have to invest in something that you don't know if is working or not,

01:42:52:23 - 01:42:59:18

Fabrizio Conicella

you are even not so able to understand everything, but you realize that there is a

01:42:59:18 - 01:43:16:15

Fabrizio Conicella

strong potential impact on the market that the probably if is working there is a value, but you don't know, you are not able to evaluate the risk of failure because maybe it's 100%, maybe one you don't know.

01:43:16:17 - 01:43:22:21

Fabrizio Conicella

You are not able to translate the uncertainty in a number,

01:43:22:21 - 01:43:24:12

Fabrizio Conicella

and the difference.

01:43:24:14 - 01:43:45:24

Christian Soschner

I think, Khosla from Khosla Ventures, the founder of Khosla Venture Sports, definitely agrees, writing a book that he said, if the chance of success is only 0.001%, that's enough for me to invest. So this is this, this crazy, uncertain ideas. Nobody knows whether it will be something or not. But he takes the bet. And this is also something that you embrace in the industry.

01:43:46:01 - 01:43:49:15

Fabrizio Conicella

We try to do that honestly, we cannot take

01:43:49:15 - 01:44:03:18

Fabrizio Conicella

100% of uncertainty, but we tend to concede that. And to evaluate also what seems at the first glance, crazy. We didn't exclude the same thing, only because it's

01:44:03:18 - 01:44:12:03

Fabrizio Conicella

completely strange. I can give you an example. We are working, chronic respiratory diseases, and the usual way to do diagnosis is spirometry.

01:44:12:03 - 01:44:17:15

Fabrizio Conicella

This is a standard of care. There are a lot of technologies that are improving spirometry.

01:44:17:15 - 01:44:44:13

Fabrizio Conicella

At the same time, we are evaluating a vocal biomarker. It's crazy. No, it's not crazy. There are technologies that permit to do that, even if there are no products on the market that are doing that. But we are exploring that word. We are exploring word, the word we are correlating, I don't know, heart rate, oxygen saturation, movement

01:44:44:13 - 01:44:49:03

Fabrizio Conicella

of the chest as a way to predict the crisis.

01:44:49:05 - 01:44:51:20

Fabrizio Conicella

And we are not sure that is working,

01:44:51:20 - 01:45:10:04

Fabrizio Conicella

but we are exploring we are trying to understand the nothingness. Surely we are doing an investment because maybe the correlation is not reaching that point. But we are exploring and we are trying to understand because that knowledge will be key for us to take

01:45:10:04 - 01:45:19:17

Fabrizio Conicella

decision. If we exclude a priori, we risk not only to lose an opportunity, but to be not able to understand what will happen in the future.

01:45:19:19 - 01:45:36:07

Fabrizio Conicella

And we need to do that. This is the real value of a big pharma company, I think, is the capability to evaluate. But to evaluate you need to know. Otherwise a you exclude automatically what you don't know.

01:45:36:07 - 01:45:54:03

Christian Soschner

This leads me to the cultural question what you said. I asked myself about ten years ago as the first time I started asking myself, why is Silicon Valley winning and why Europe not in the 90s? I always thought we are on the same level, and embracing uncertainty and risk taking is definitely something that's different. This is my question then to you.

01:45:54:07 - 01:46:03:21

Christian Soschner

What does that mean for our European culture? Is this something that, is ingrained in European culture, taking risks and living with uncertainty?

01:46:05:09 - 01:46:07:12

Fabrizio Conicella

Europe is in general

01:46:07:12 - 01:46:39:02

Fabrizio Conicella

more risk adverse than us. That is the first point because we have a long history. And the history teacher does it is dangerous to take a risk. Let's say. Is it completely a good approach? No, because it the approach that we are following the drivers to the surviving, not to the, leadership. If you would like to lead the change, you need to take risk.

01:46:39:04 - 01:47:09:21

Fabrizio Conicella

You need you need to understand uncertainty. And you need to be bold. We are not enough bold as a continent. We are too fragmented. The we are not a unique market. We are 28, 27 different markets. We are competing each other. And the result is that we are as small as defending our own boundaries. We need to go out of that paradigm.

01:47:09:23 - 01:47:48:02

Fabrizio Conicella

If we create, a bigger market we can afford the more risk simply because we will have a critical mass able to manage the consequence of a failure. If we create a unique market, we will have a capital markets that will be different with a strong space for early stage investment by venture capitalist. If we have a new way to manage the interaction that is existing between universities and investor, we will have probably an increasing number of startups that will grow because we have in Europe an incredible number of startups.

01:47:48:07 - 01:48:18:07

Fabrizio Conicella

But we have not so many startups that are growing, and that the consequence for a big pharma will be that we will be in an ecosystem that is more suitable for the grow. Its these. The know is not easy. As we know the geopolitical situation is not helping Gaza. It's even more and more chaotic and some decision by some of our historic partners are even challenging.

01:48:18:09 - 01:48:47:01

Fabrizio Conicella

Some of our, beliefs. But we have to try to work in that direction. We have to try to synergize more across the different innovative ecosystems that we are in Europe. We have to go out of the idea that the ecosystem are in competition. We are part of, unique big, innovative ecosystem that is Europe, where there are different hotspots, hubs that we have to synergize.

01:48:47:01 - 01:48:55:05

Fabrizio Conicella

Otherwise we would be not able to reach the right dimension, able to permit, global competition. And for a pharma company,

01:48:55:05 - 01:49:10:23

Fabrizio Conicella

this is key. We need an environment where we can grow, not an environment where, when we have a product, we need a 28 different authorization to sell the product. And this is the huge difference vis a vis us and us.

01:49:10:23 - 01:49:12:15

Fabrizio Conicella

You need one.

01:49:13:15 - 01:49:15:16

Fabrizio Conicella

And it's a big difference for

01:49:15:16 - 01:49:40:09

Fabrizio Conicella

us and for the startup. When we analyze the startup a business plan we always as smile when we saw that there is the plan to sell the same product in ten countries the same year. It's impossible in Europe. It's impossible. You need to date to have relation with every single authority is is not productive.

01:49:40:09 - 01:49:41:18

Fabrizio Conicella

It's not efficient from that

01:49:41:18 - 01:50:10:22

Fabrizio Conicella

point of view. So Europe has to work in order to create a really unique market, not only for, guards and capital, but also for brains and the we need to work in order to synergize the different components of the system. This is key. This is important. We need to work in order to create a more and more, platform to transform a science and innovation.

01:50:10:24 - 01:50:46:03

Fabrizio Conicella

And we need the more and more to reinforce the relations that are existing between the universities, startups and big companies and investors. Because those four elements are key for the development of innovation. Last but not least, we need also to think how the public administration could be supporting is not simply financing it's procurement. Innovative procurement could be really impactful because it will drive the market, particularly in Europe, where the healthcare market is based there in general, on the public healthcare system.

01:50:46:05 - 01:51:02:05

Fabrizio Conicella

We need to work a little bit in doing that. But yes, there is a strong possibility because we have absolutely good science in Europe, nothing to, to blame against, us. So we are on the same level.

01:51:02:08 - 01:51:26:07

Christian Soschner

I completely agree. We have great science and we have also great entrepreneurs. But the playbook that I give to companies when they start working with me as a board member or as a consultant, it's a simple one. So if you are convinced that your idea qualifies for a product and product development, found the company here in Europe, get public funds, you get a lot of public funds here in Europe.

01:51:26:09 - 01:51:51:00

Christian Soschner

Start building a team. But be aware that there is no money on the market between late, late, late pre-clinical stage, serious and IPO stage. If you want to build your company, move to the US, get money to bring it, with the help of, US pharma companies to the market and then come back to Europe.

01:51:51:02 - 01:51:58:12

Christian Soschner

My question to you is one, do you see it similarly, or if no, why do you see different?

01:51:58:12 - 01:52:36:23

Fabrizio Conicella

Let's, where the heart of a cop fight. When I discuss with fast startup. I'm giving a quite similar suggestion. Look to us. Don't stop to do R&D in Europe because we have competitive advantages. But look to us for fundraising and after that, being in a European company, return to Europe. It's a pragmatic suggestion. Obviously, it is easily dependent on the type of technology and a solution that you would like to develop.

01:52:37:04 - 01:52:48:18

Fabrizio Conicella

But if you are developing a high tech biotech products, in vivo, gene therapy, gene editing, and so on, USA is a better market.

01:52:51:14 - 01:52:58:15

Fabrizio Conicella

It's against my DNA to say that obviously I'm a I'm proud to be a European working

01:52:58:15 - 01:53:24:20

Fabrizio Conicella

in Europe for a company, but this is the reality. If I wear the heart of Casey, I'm saying also that in Europe there are really good companies that a good partner with startup, big global protagonist, mid-size family owned company that could partner with those startups supporting the growth.

01:53:24:22 - 01:53:39:16

Fabrizio Conicella

It is against the idea to go in us no, but it requires a on effort corporate side, the startup side to approach each other. You need to stop

01:53:39:16 - 01:53:49:23

Fabrizio Conicella

to consider a big pharma company simply as an ATM. If someone that has the money. At the same time, a big corporates have to stop

01:53:49:23 - 01:53:56:12

Fabrizio Conicella

to find a startup, made by scientists that are not having, any business acumen.

01:53:56:12 - 01:54:25:22

Fabrizio Conicella

They have only science. So you can buy for a small amount of money. What does, really, really high value. So you have to go out of those stereotype. But if you are able to do that, you can really create a partnership platform where you can work. And probably you can integrate or, let's say change the rule, you can avoid to go in us immediately.

01:54:26:01 - 01:54:54:12

Fabrizio Conicella

You can go in us of the certain stage of development. Because also to go in us too early could be dangerous. And you can work with the corporate in going us. It's something that I think it will became common in the future, particularly for no pharma solution to partner with European companies that have already, maybe a commercial network in US to exploit the synergy.

01:54:54:14 - 01:55:10:05

Fabrizio Conicella

This is quite a good approach to support the growth of the pharma company at the same time with the growth of the startup. But you need to go out of the to stereotype, startups are only science and the corporates, the only money you have to

01:55:10:05 - 01:55:15:13

Fabrizio Conicella

go out of those stereotypes and you can work together trying to go in us together.

01:55:15:15 - 01:55:20:06

Fabrizio Conicella

Yeah. I to China because it's not only us. It could be China.

01:55:20:08 - 01:55:46:04

Christian Soschner

It's a wonderful guy. I totally agree. I had on Tuesday Ralph and Rosen Gardner from Kenya Alice on my podcast. And he runs this model that you explain science here in Europe. Headquartered in the United States, but, relocated from Europe to the United States and partners with European pharma companies. I think it's this beautiful world. And for the scientists and entrepreneurs, with China, with Saudi Arabia, with UAE joining the race, it's really a wonderful world to move forward.

01:55:46:05 - 01:56:06:14

Christian Soschner

But when I wear my European hat and being proud of Europe, I have a similar question. Like you would say, from the value creation perspective, it's highly unsatisfying to see tax money flowing into the startup world. And then the relocate to the US, and then the US government gets the big tax payback and not the European one.

01:56:06:16 - 01:56:14:22

Christian Soschner

My question to you in this respect is, we have a lot of things to improve here in Europe. In my opinion, when you had unlimited resources

01:56:14:22 - 01:56:22:06

Christian Soschner

and could remove one big blocking stone overnight, what would this blocking stumpy.

01:56:22:08 - 01:56:23:02

Fabrizio Conicella

I think that I

01:56:23:02 - 01:56:31:11

Fabrizio Conicella

will try to remove, country boundaries to create a unique market for pharma. It will,

01:56:31:11 - 01:57:01:16

Fabrizio Conicella

speed up the entrance to the market of innovative products. It will create for startups. Opportunities that are based on the fact that one of the biggest barriers to reach the market will be removed, if that, pharma unique pharma market will be complemented by a better capability to finance the growth.

01:57:01:16 - 01:57:29:20

Fabrizio Conicella

The startup, it will be impactful because we will became a quite interesting market for AI tech solution. Because we are a sophisticated market, we are probably, from a certain point of view, more sophisticated. The US, but we need to go out of the, 20 to 27 market that we have today. One authorization, one market, Warren Balsam.

01:57:29:21 - 01:57:31:17

Fabrizio Conicella

And that will be wonderful.

01:57:32:22 - 01:57:55:08

Christian Soschner

I couldn't agree more. It's really wonderful talking with you and the trust. Check the clock. And we have the final four minutes before the two hour mark. Time is really flying when you have fun. My final question to you after our conversation, what's one message that you would give to the audience today? At the end of our conversation?

01:57:55:10 - 01:58:23:13

Fabrizio Conicella

Be a pragmatic dreamer. You have to be bold. You have to dream. But you have to understand that the corporates are a pragmatic organization. So your dream has to be contextualized and explain it in a way that pharma company could understand how to transform the dream in a product for a patient. So to be a pragmatic dreamer, I think is a nice, final, word and final suggestion.

01:58:23:15 - 01:58:47:19

Christian Soschner

Fabrizio, thank you very much for your time. It is fantastic conversation. I learned a lot of new things, and I wish you and your team and your company all the best in shaping Europe and shaping the Europe pharma company, and let's make it really one unique market that drives innovation, not only in basic research, but all the way through to the markets.

01:58:47:21 - 01:58:56:01

Fabrizio Conicella

Thank you, Christiane, thank you to everyone listening. Me and, good luck for everyone for PTO.

01:58:56:01 - 01:59:00:15

Christian Soschner

Have a great weekend. Have a great Easter weekend ahead and let's catch up soon.

01:59:00:17 - 01:59:02:01

Fabrizio Conicella

Thank you very much.

01:59:02:03 - 01:59:03:22

Christian Soschner

Bye bye bye.

01:59:03:22 - 01:59:06:19

Christian Soschner

breakthroughs are born in comfort.

01:59:06:20 - 01:59:32:20

Christian Soschner

They come from those bold enough to bet on the unknown. Today Fabrizio showed us why. Managing uncertainty, not just risk, is the frontier of real innovation. From neuromorphic computing to vocal biomarkers. The future belongs to those who dare to explore the edge. Europe has the science, the minds and the heart.

01:59:32:20 - 01:59:39:09

Christian Soschner

But we must unify our markets, break open silos, and stop thinking smart.

01:59:39:11 - 01:59:45:23

Christian Soschner

The question isn't whether we can lead, but whether we are bold enough to choose that path.

01:59:45:23 - 02:00:03:04

Christian Soschner

If this conversation made you pause, question, or imagine something much, much bigger, don't let it enter. Follow the show. Leave a review. Share this with someone who still believes innovation can be ethical, global and human.

02:00:03:04 - 02:00:08:04

Christian Soschner

Every lesson, every share and review expands this circle.

02:00:08:06 - 02:00:40:24

Christian Soschner

It brings in more visionaries like Fabrizio Sparks reach a dialog and fuels a movement to rethink how innovation truly serves people, not just profits. Progress begins when we stop asking what's proper and start backing what's possible. So stay curious. Stay courageous, and keep building the future. It feels. So stay curious, stay courageous, and keep building the future that still feels a little too early.

02:00:41:01 - 02:00:46:07

Christian Soschner

Until next time. Stay bold and hit subscribe.