SPARK20 – 156: Janos Pasztor | The Climate Diplomat Who Refuses to Give Up on Humanity

The world has grown quiet about climate change. Too quiet.

We scroll past floods, fires, droughts… and move on with our day.
As if the problem solved itself.
As if we’ve earned the luxury to look away.

Janos Pasztor (full episode) has spent 40 years inside the rooms where climate decisions are made — from serving as UN Assistant Secretary-General for Climate Change to advising presidents, prime ministers, and global institutions.

And in this SPARK20 highlight episode, one truth stood out:

We are not done with climate change.
We are only entering its most consequential chapter.

This is not a doom story.
It is the story of a man who still believes humanity can choose a better future — if we’re willing to face the questions we’ve been avoiding.

What You’ll Learn in 20 Minutes

Why global warming accelerates even as we reduce emissions
(00:01:15) 
And why governments are still “not addressing the issue sufficiently.”

Why adaptation alone cannot save us
(00:01:54) 
And what the real limits of adaptation look like.

Why Janos believes we may need to cool parts of the planet
(00:02:32) 
And why no political leader wants to say it out loud.

How climate diplomacy changed since the 1980s — and why it matters now
(00:03:32) 
Including the rise of China in global negotiations.

Why capitalism itself may need to evolve
(00:08:05) 
And what this means for investors, innovation, and global stability.

What geoengineering really is (and is not)
(00:09:16) 
Forget the internet myths — this is the factual explanation.

Why volcanic eruptions hold a clue to future climate solutions
(00:12:04) 

Why SRM is scientifically feasible — and politically dangerous
(00:17:11) 
The technology is simple. The governance is not.

Why the biggest risk of SRM is not cost — but consent
(00:17:44) 
And what happens when societies don’t get a say.

What a unilateral climate intervention could trigger
(00:20:33) 
A scenario every policymaker should hear.

Why Janos still believes in a brighter future
(00:21:07) 
A rare moment of optimism from someone who has seen every side of the crisis.

Quotes to Carry With You

📌 “Global temperatures continue to rise — and the world is not ready.”
(00:01:15)

📌 “We must consider whether the time has come to start cooling parts of the planet.”
(00:02:32)

📌 “Three degrees of warming is cuckoo land. You simply cannot adapt to that.”
(00:18:23)

📌 “Technology is not the issue. It’s cheap. The real question is: do societies want this?”
(00:17:11)

📌 “I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t believe we can still get this right.”
(00:21:07)

Why This Conversation Matters

Because climate change isn’t a chapter we finished.
It’s the foundation on which every other chapter of the future will be written — our economies, our food systems, our borders, our investments, and the lives of our children.

And while Elon Musk may one day take humans to Mars, no one alive today will move there.
This planet is the one we must keep habitable.

Janos Pasztor is a reminder that realism and hope are not opposites — they’re partners.

👉 Listen now. Share it fo

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:18:11

Christian Soschner

Let me start with a question I never thought I would ask out loud. Should humanity cool the planet on purpose? And then Janusz Pasteur looked at me and he said, three degrees of warming is cuckoo land.

00:00:18:11 - 00:00:29:22

Christian Soschner

Sounds funny, but in today's health episode, we are going straight into the part of the conversation that every investor parties should make, and innovation leader needs to hear.

00:00:29:24 - 00:01:10:04

Christian Soschner

Because the future economy, the next decade of energy, infrastructure, agriculture and global stability will depend on the climate decisions we make right now. This is not theory. It's not politics. It's the roadmap for what your companies, your portfolios and your countries will be dealing with sooner than anyone expects. So if you only have 20 minutes today, this is the episode that gives you the sense, the urgency, the opportunities, and the uncomfortable truths directly from one of the world's most experienced climate diplomats.

00:01:10:06 - 00:01:11:05

Christian Soschner

Let's jump in.

00:01:11:05 - 00:01:15:16

Christian Soschner

What's been on your mind recently when you think about climate change?

00:01:15:16 - 00:01:23:09

Janos Pasztor

global emissions, of carbon dioxide continues to rise and so do the average global temperatures.

00:01:23:09 - 00:01:25:10

Janos Pasztor

So and so the, the, the the.

00:01:25:10 - 00:01:29:01

Janos Pasztor

Impacts are increasingly significa and and sometimes catastrophic.

00:01:29:01 - 00:01:32:10

Janos Pasztor

Impacts of this climate, warming.

00:01:32:12 - 00:01:44:11

Janos Pasztor

And the world is not ready. It's happening. It's going to be worse. Governments, intergovernmental processes and also non-state actors are simply not addressing this issue at all or not.

00:01:44:11 - 00:01:45:16

Janos Pasztor

Sufficiently so when.

00:01:45:16 - 00:01:48:18

Janos Pasztor

You put all this together, it's it worries me.

00:01:48:18 - 00:01:50:16

Janos Pasztor

And that's what's on my mind.

00:01:50:16 - 00:01:54:16

Christian Soschner

what are the three core messages that you want them to remember?

00:01:54:16 - 00:01:57:12

Janos Pasztor

We really have to accelerate.

00:01:57:14 - 00:02:14:20

Janos Pasztor

Mitigation. That is to say emission reductions, carbon capture and storage and even carbon dioxide removal, but substantially and do it much faster. So that's one to to actually reduce the problem to start with or putting more greenhouse gases.

00:02:14:20 - 00:02:19:09

Janos Pasztor

The second one is that, we also have to really.

00:02:19:09 - 00:02:24:03

Janos Pasztor

Substantially accelerate adaptation, to what's coming.

00:02:24:05 - 00:02:30:14

Janos Pasztor

Recognizing that there are limits to adaptation. And then the third and this is important, then we'll talk.

00:02:30:14 - 00:02:32:10

Janos Pasztor

About the details later, I presume.

00:02:32:10 - 00:02:42:03

Janos Pasztor

But we have to consider whether the time has come to start pooling parts or the whole planet until we.

00:02:42:03 - 00:02:45:24

Janos Pasztor

Finish the decarbonization, of this world.

00:02:45:24 - 00:02:55:05

Christian Soschner

It's The Inconvenient Truth 2.0. Can you explain for listeners what you mean with this term?

00:02:55:05 - 00:03:02:16

Janos Pasztor

And I say this, this is like inconvenient to 2.0 because governments and other leaders, they don't feel.

00:03:02:16 - 00:03:04:03

Janos Pasztor

Comfortable talking about these.

00:03:04:03 - 00:03:06:06

Janos Pasztor

Issues, maybe because they don't.

00:03:06:06 - 00:03:07:12

Janos Pasztor

See their solutions.

00:03:07:17 - 00:03:08:22

Janos Pasztor

Maybe because they have.

00:03:08:22 - 00:03:16:01

Janos Pasztor

Invested so much in simply talking about reaching 1.5°C. And we'll come to that, perhaps, of what that means.

00:03:16:07 - 00:03:20:09

Janos Pasztor

But they're so focused on this that they're unable to or unwilling to.

00:03:20:09 - 00:03:21:15

Janos Pasztor

Go beyond and say.

00:03:21:20 - 00:03:23:13

Janos Pasztor

Clearly, we're.

00:03:23:15 - 00:03:32:15

Janos Pasztor

Heading to problematic warming and we need to deal with it. It's inconvenient. They're not sure what to do about it. So I call it inconvenient to 2.0.

00:03:32:15 - 00:03:41:14

Christian Soschner

How has this the handling of the topic, climate change changed from the late 80s, up to 2025.

00:03:41:16 - 00:03:42:12

Janos Pasztor

So

00:03:42:12 - 00:03:50:08

Janos Pasztor

everything has changed, really. And and not just in those, decades. But even if I look back just in the.

00:03:50:08 - 00:03:58:16

Janos Pasztor

Last ten years since the Paris Agreement, so much has changed. And, I think it's difficult to go through everything, but.

00:03:58:16 - 00:03:59:15

Janos Pasztor

Maybe a.

00:03:59:15 - 00:04:03:23

Janos Pasztor

Couple of examples. So let me start with the, the, the US.

00:04:03:23 - 00:04:04:20

Janos Pasztor

Because the US.

00:04:04:20 - 00:04:15:02

Janos Pasztor

Is, the actor, it has it is still the largest, one of the largest and leaders worldwide. And certainly per capita basis, it has the technology and money.

00:04:15:02 - 00:04:20:03

Janos Pasztor

So potentially it's a it's a super important country. If you look back a little bit.

00:04:20:03 - 00:04:22:05

Janos Pasztor

To the history, the older.

00:04:22:05 - 00:04:24:16

Janos Pasztor

George H.W. Bush was the one.

00:04:24:18 - 00:04:28:22

Janos Pasztor

Who signed and got the UN Framework Convention treaty ratified.

00:04:28:22 - 00:04:31:16

Janos Pasztor

So it was a Republican president.

00:04:31:18 - 00:04:34:07

Janos Pasztor

Then some years later, his son,

00:04:34:07 - 00:04:35:22

Janos Pasztor

George W.

00:04:35:24 - 00:04:37:09

Janos Pasztor

Bush.

00:04:37:11 - 00:04:38:15

Janos Pasztor

Did not even.

00:04:38:15 - 00:04:47:04

Janos Pasztor

Try to get the Kyoto Protocol, ratification in the Senate. They just simply didn't say that they were not going to do that.

00:04:47:04 - 00:04:48:12

Janos Pasztor

And I think since.

00:04:48:12 - 00:04:54:13

Janos Pasztor

The Kyoto Protocol, things have, gone quite a bit downhill.

00:04:54:15 - 00:05:00:15

Janos Pasztor

Then in this period, we have increasingly visible, strong.

00:05:00:17 - 00:05:04:06

Janos Pasztor

And effective climate deniers who have an impact.

00:05:04:08 - 00:05:06:11

Janos Pasztor

And these are, these climate.

00:05:06:11 - 00:05:15:15

Janos Pasztor

Deniers are well organized and they are, well, well-funded. And, there's good, evidence, studies, documented evidence of what is happening.

00:05:15:15 - 00:05:21:00

Janos Pasztor

But they have been having a very strong impact. And, then we we got to.

00:05:21:00 - 00:05:22:02

Janos Pasztor

The Paris Agreement.

00:05:22:02 - 00:05:23:04

Janos Pasztor

Which in fact.

00:05:23:04 - 00:05:28:13

Janos Pasztor

Was quite a weak agreement, but it was the best thing we could achieve at that time.

00:05:28:15 - 00:05:32:01

Janos Pasztor

And and then it gets even worse. During.

00:05:32:01 - 00:05:40:16

Janos Pasztor

The first, phase, Trump Trump's first, presidency, U.S. leaves the Paris Agreement.

00:05:40:16 - 00:05:41:02

Janos Pasztor

And.

00:05:41:04 - 00:05:43:16

Janos Pasztor

Then Biden comes back and makes a real.

00:05:43:16 - 00:05:46:22

Janos Pasztor

Effort to try. And for the first time, actually, America.

00:05:47:02 - 00:05:52:01

Janos Pasztor

Really started doing something positive on, to fight climate.

00:05:52:01 - 00:05:54:17

Janos Pasztor

Change. And then comes Trump for the second time, he.

00:05:54:17 - 00:05:55:11

Janos Pasztor

Leaves the Paris.

00:05:55:11 - 00:05:58:12

Janos Pasztor

Agreement again. And really is trying to turn the.

00:05:58:12 - 00:06:06:04

Janos Pasztor

Clock into history backward. For example, on, on renewable energy and on coal use and things like that. So.

00:06:06:06 - 00:06:10:07

Janos Pasztor

This is just a us and then we have let's just.

00:06:10:07 - 00:06:18:07

Janos Pasztor

Take another country, China, rather important country, another, big emitter. It's the absolute largest emitter as a.

00:06:18:07 - 00:06:19:10

Janos Pasztor

Country, not on.

00:06:19:10 - 00:06:19:17

Janos Pasztor

A per.

00:06:19:17 - 00:06:25:12

Janos Pasztor

Capita basis. And I remember at the beginning of the UN negotiations.

00:06:25:14 - 00:06:31:22

Janos Pasztor

China used to have 1 or 2 delegates while countries like the US had.

00:06:31:22 - 00:06:33:24

Janos Pasztor

Many, many. Now China has.

00:06:33:24 - 00:06:40:15

Janos Pasztor

The largest delegation, to, the UN Framework Convention, meetings.

00:06:40:17 - 00:06:43:02

Janos Pasztor

And China has a clear long.

00:06:43:02 - 00:06:44:14

Janos Pasztor

Term strategy on climate.

00:06:44:14 - 00:06:45:15

Janos Pasztor

Change and is actually.

00:06:45:15 - 00:06:46:11

Janos Pasztor

Implementing that

00:06:46:11 - 00:06:50:10

Janos Pasztor

strategy. And it's not perfect. I, I don't want to put it that way.

00:06:50:10 - 00:06:51:12

Janos Pasztor

But it's been.

00:06:51:14 - 00:06:53:22

Janos Pasztor

In place for some time and they're moving forward.

00:06:54:03 - 00:06:54:09

Janos Pasztor

And.

00:06:54:09 - 00:07:04:23

Janos Pasztor

They're implementing it. And in that as part of that strategy, China has become the absolute world leader on suitable takes on wind, on electric.

00:07:04:23 - 00:07:05:18

Janos Pasztor

Vehicles.

00:07:05:23 - 00:07:08:10

Janos Pasztor

And so on and so forth. And,

00:07:08:10 - 00:07:25:11

Christian Soschner

And I think to to get to this point, make a product more sustainable, cheaper and more convenient is the classic startup problem. I think this is, there's so much potential in just improvement, in my opinion. How do you see this?

00:07:25:13 - 00:07:26:17

Janos Pasztor

I mean, I

00:07:26:17 - 00:07:33:00

Janos Pasztor

agree, but I think there has to be careful here that, that the climate change issue cannot.

00:07:33:00 - 00:07:41:00

Janos Pasztor

Be solved in a silo looking at only the climate part, of the problem, that is to say, the carbon part.

00:07:41:04 - 00:07:47:13

Janos Pasztor

Okay. It's it's linked to so many different issues and startups are not very good at looking at.

00:07:47:13 - 00:07:48:16

Janos Pasztor

The big picture.

00:07:48:16 - 00:07:52:12

Janos Pasztor

They will be very good at looking at a slice, and they can do really well.

00:07:52:12 - 00:07:52:20

Janos Pasztor

In that.

00:07:52:20 - 00:08:02:05

Janos Pasztor

Slice. And we need them to look at that. But we need others to look at the bigger picture. And I think one of the and that's why I mentioned.

00:08:02:05 - 00:08:04:23

Janos Pasztor

This thing about capitalism earlier is that.

00:08:05:00 - 00:08:05:23

Janos Pasztor

Fundamentally.

00:08:05:23 - 00:08:09:05

Janos Pasztor

The capitalist economy.

00:08:09:07 - 00:08:13:08

Janos Pasztor

Is essentially dependent on resource extraction.

00:08:13:10 - 00:08:21:09

Janos Pasztor

That is the the fundamental basis. And, some have questioned whether the capitalist system can.

00:08:21:09 - 00:08:23:20

Janos Pasztor

Actually evolve into a.

00:08:23:20 - 00:08:26:13

Janos Pasztor

Different kind of system, which does not.

00:08:26:14 - 00:08:27:07

Janos Pasztor

Depend.

00:08:27:13 - 00:08:37:22

Janos Pasztor

On resource extraction, but depends on other ways of moving forward. And we'll always need resources to have bathtubs and, you know, iPads and so on. So that's not the point.

00:08:37:24 - 00:08:40:19

Janos Pasztor

But it is. The whole system.

00:08:40:19 - 00:08:46:17

Janos Pasztor

Is really built on resource extraction. And, and you see that in.

00:08:46:19 - 00:08:50:04

Janos Pasztor

Even the way the, the, today, the geopolitical.

00:08:50:04 - 00:08:51:19

Janos Pasztor

Thinking we have to.

00:08:51:21 - 00:08:53:01

Janos Pasztor

Do to, to get.

00:08:53:01 - 00:09:06:20

Janos Pasztor

The resources of Greenland, we have to ensure that, the, the resources in the Middle East, the oil and the gas, are can be controlled by us, whatever the US is, you know.

00:09:06:22 - 00:09:11:03

Janos Pasztor

It's the same thing. So, this is this is a real challenge.

00:09:11:03 - 00:09:12:08

Janos Pasztor

And and this needs.

00:09:12:08 - 00:09:13:24

Janos Pasztor

Some, some more.

00:09:13:24 - 00:09:16:17

Janos Pasztor

Thinking and a and I think a separate podcast as

00:09:16:17 - 00:09:28:04

Christian Soschner

When we talk about geo engineering, engineering, it gave engineering. I think it's threats to him, engineering in terms of climate change, what's the role of engineering in reality? Okay, so it's kind of terraforming.

00:09:28:06 - 00:09:28:11

Janos Pasztor

So

00:09:28:11 - 00:09:33:08

Janos Pasztor

geoengineering and terraforming are different, but they can of some part.

00:09:33:08 - 00:09:34:19

Janos Pasztor

Of it can overlap. So geo.

00:09:34:19 - 00:09:37:12

Janos Pasztor

Engineering is basically large scale.

00:09:37:12 - 00:09:42:08

Janos Pasztor

Intervention in the climate system to make it better.

00:09:42:10 - 00:09:44:23

Janos Pasztor

And there are essentially two groups.

00:09:44:23 - 00:09:57:02

Janos Pasztor

Of techniques that one thinks of as geoengineering. One is large scale removal of excess carbon from the atmosphere, carbon dioxide removal, or Cd-R or the short term.

00:09:57:04 - 00:10:00:13

Janos Pasztor

And we already have too much carbon. So there are.

00:10:00:14 - 00:10:05:03

Janos Pasztor

Developments on how to remove that carbon from the atmosphere. The other.

00:10:05:03 - 00:10:05:12

Janos Pasztor

One.

00:10:05:17 - 00:10:11:21

Janos Pasztor

Is solar radiation modification or some people call it solar geoengineering.

00:10:11:23 - 00:10:14:16

Janos Pasztor

It's essentially to cool the planet.

00:10:14:16 - 00:10:20:23

Janos Pasztor

To change the reflectivity, the albedo of the Earth, so that some of the incoming sunlight goes right back into.

00:10:20:23 - 00:10:21:10

Janos Pasztor

Space.

00:10:21:15 - 00:10:26:17

Janos Pasztor

And therefore, forced the planet. There are different techniques of, both.

00:10:26:17 - 00:10:27:15

Janos Pasztor

Carbon removal.

00:10:27:15 - 00:10:37:19

Janos Pasztor

And solar radiation modification. They're quite different. They have different governance challenges. They have different costs, different, engagement of of private sector.

00:10:37:21 - 00:10:43:14

Janos Pasztor

So we have to think about these two as quite different. In fact, they're so different that, many have stopped.

00:10:43:14 - 00:10:46:12

Janos Pasztor

Using the term geoengineering altogether because.

00:10:46:12 - 00:10:49:02

Janos Pasztor

It's not helpful to to put them all.

00:10:49:06 - 00:10:49:17

Janos Pasztor

Together.

00:10:49:17 - 00:10:51:02

Janos Pasztor

technology.

00:10:51:04 - 00:11:04:12

Christian Soschner

So these are real technologies. It's not a conspiracy theory because I've never read something about it on Facebook or on Xcom. I can't this is history of people working on that. Or is this just something that someone made up from a science fiction movie?

00:11:04:21 - 00:11:07:10

Janos Pasztor

So the let me try to.

00:11:07:10 - 00:11:09:06

Janos Pasztor

To address the 4 or 5 points here.

00:11:09:06 - 00:11:11:12

Janos Pasztor

First of all, there are people.

00:11:11:12 - 00:11:16:05

Janos Pasztor

Working on all of these technologies in terms of research and development.

00:11:16:07 - 00:11:20:22

Janos Pasztor

Nobody is doing actually.

00:11:20:24 - 00:11:24:17

Janos Pasztor

Climate modification through solar radiation modification.

00:11:24:17 - 00:11:26:04

Janos Pasztor

Other than some of the.

00:11:26:04 - 00:11:37:15

Janos Pasztor

Traditional ground based methods of white houses and things like that. Nobody's doing any of that. It's only at a research and development, phase.

00:11:37:17 - 00:11:44:02

Janos Pasztor

But people are working on these and, at the moment, no government, no.

00:11:44:02 - 00:11:49:03

Janos Pasztor

Society has decided that, there is social license for this, that we want.

00:11:49:03 - 00:11:49:16

Janos Pasztor

To do it.

00:11:49:16 - 00:11:55:14

Janos Pasztor

So whatever developments are taking place, they're happening in a vacuum of, of of.

00:11:55:14 - 00:11:56:15

Janos Pasztor

Social goals.

00:11:56:15 - 00:12:00:04

Janos Pasztor

And objectives. Now.

00:12:00:06 - 00:12:04:14

Janos Pasztor

The conspiracy there is something called.

00:12:04:16 - 00:12:10:15

Janos Pasztor

Contrails. You know, the airplanes that they leave the, the, the vapor trails.

00:12:10:15 - 00:12:12:00

Janos Pasztor

Now, many.

00:12:12:02 - 00:12:14:11

Janos Pasztor

Believe in the conspiracy world that.

00:12:14:11 - 00:12:20:21

Janos Pasztor

That is solar geoengineering, solar radiation modification, and, that governments.

00:12:20:21 - 00:12:20:24

Janos Pasztor

Are.

00:12:20:24 - 00:12:27:09

Janos Pasztor

Secretly doing this not so much to cool the planet, but to, reduce population.

00:12:27:09 - 00:12:27:15

Janos Pasztor

And.

00:12:27:15 - 00:12:37:18

Janos Pasztor

Increase manhood, whatever. You know, it's there's all kinds of stories. Of course, none of that is true. But there are a lot of people who think about that.

00:12:38:01 - 00:12:46:17

Christian Soschner

Okay, okay. That's very interesting. It's very interesting. And now the question with solar radiation modification is, can we do it in a more controlled way

00:12:46:17 - 00:13:11:00

Janos Pasztor

like a volcanic eruption? Because that's that's also, a way for sulfur aerosols to get into the stratosphere. And, scientists even measured, there was a 1981 eruption of a volcano in the Philippines. And, scientists measured that after that eruption, the global temperature went down by about half a degree for about a year and a half.

00:13:11:06 - 00:13:17:13

Janos Pasztor

So, you know, that's, that's the same, same process. So.

00:13:17:15 - 00:13:21:16

Janos Pasztor

Well, this is where, there is science.

00:13:21:16 - 00:13:37:14

Janos Pasztor

Science and research has been taking place over the last, few decades on this issue. And, scientists are pretty sure that it would work, that it could be done in a controlled way. By controlled way.

00:13:37:16 - 00:13:38:22

Janos Pasztor

I mean.

00:13:38:24 - 00:13:53:17

Janos Pasztor

To to developed methods to this distribute, these aerosols, in the stratosphere, the the weight would be the ideal. This, diffusion method.

00:13:53:19 - 00:13:59:00

Janos Pasztor

Where the problem starts is that we don't know enough.

00:13:59:06 - 00:14:01:07

Janos Pasztor

About, the the.

00:14:01:08 - 00:14:03:15

Janos Pasztor

Specific way.

00:14:03:17 - 00:14:06:12

Janos Pasztor

The, the global temperature reduction.

00:14:06:14 - 00:14:07:19

Janos Pasztor

Will impact.

00:14:07:19 - 00:14:11:07

Janos Pasztor

The climate in different situations.

00:14:11:09 - 00:14:12:20

Janos Pasztor

What scientists are pretty.

00:14:12:20 - 00:14:14:09

Janos Pasztor

Sure is that you can.

00:14:14:11 - 00:14:16:02

Janos Pasztor

Reduce the global temperature.

00:14:16:02 - 00:14:20:04

Janos Pasztor

By a certain amount or slow slow down the growth of temperature.

00:14:20:04 - 00:14:23:13

Janos Pasztor

Right. But what you cannot do is you cannot.

00:14:23:13 - 00:14:26:24

Janos Pasztor

Bring back the old climate. Let's be absolutely clear about

00:14:26:24 - 00:14:46:21

Christian Soschner

Before, we agreed on the podcast, I read, an interesting post on social media, which I thought was a conspiracy theory, and it was something like, that, when the Industrial Revolution started, human rights started emitting, basically, let's just simplified dirt into the atmosphere,

00:14:46:21 - 00:14:50:23

Christian Soschner

But what you said about solar radiation, would you be careful?

00:14:50:23 - 00:14:51:04

Janos Pasztor

It

00:14:51:04 - 00:14:51:12

Janos Pasztor

is not.

00:14:51:12 - 00:15:00:07

Janos Pasztor

Nonsense. And this is where of tucked behind other events to be careful. So behind many controversy.

00:15:00:09 - 00:15:03:04

Janos Pasztor

Controversial issues and conspiracy theories, there.

00:15:03:04 - 00:15:04:04

Janos Pasztor

Is a grain.

00:15:04:04 - 00:15:05:14

Janos Pasztor

Of truth, right.

00:15:05:16 - 00:15:10:02

Janos Pasztor

And that's the. So every human activity that.

00:15:10:04 - 00:15:17:08

Janos Pasztor

Burns fossil fuels results in aerosols that rise up in the atmosphere and.

00:15:17:08 - 00:15:26:09

Janos Pasztor

Have a cooling effect. Really? Yes. And so, in the, in the 60s and the 70s, when.

00:15:26:09 - 00:15:37:17

Janos Pasztor

Europe was faced with, well, not just Europe, many of the industrialized regions of the global north were facing acid rain. Remember that we put scrubbers,

00:15:37:17 - 00:15:41:01

Janos Pasztor

on the power plants, catalytic converters on the cars.

00:15:41:04 - 00:15:42:20

Janos Pasztor

Which actually removed a.

00:15:42:20 - 00:15:52:06

Janos Pasztor

Lot of this, aerosols, directly. So it doesn't end up going so much into the atmosphere. And that's what stopped the acid rain.

00:15:52:08 - 00:15:53:19

Janos Pasztor

But there is still.

00:15:53:19 - 00:15:55:05

Janos Pasztor

Aerosol production.

00:15:55:09 - 00:15:55:21

Janos Pasztor

Even.

00:15:55:21 - 00:15:58:18

Janos Pasztor

In those places, which had done a pretty good job of.

00:15:58:18 - 00:16:01:08

Janos Pasztor

Scrubbing. And it's not yet true.

00:16:01:08 - 00:16:02:22

Janos Pasztor

Everywhere else in the world.

00:16:03:02 - 00:16:05:18

Janos Pasztor

It's happening. And the local air.

00:16:05:18 - 00:16:11:18

Janos Pasztor

Pollution has to be fixed because people are dying. Millions of people are dying, literally.

00:16:11:18 - 00:16:19:06

Janos Pasztor

So it has to be done, and it will be done. It is being done. But this, all this, the totality.

00:16:19:06 - 00:16:20:07

Janos Pasztor

Of this fossil fuel.

00:16:20:07 - 00:16:23:17

Janos Pasztor

Consumption is actually masking.

00:16:23:19 - 00:16:24:19

Janos Pasztor

The situation.

00:16:24:19 - 00:16:30:18

Janos Pasztor

And there is a certain level of cooling through solar radiation.

00:16:30:18 - 00:16:32:00

Janos Pasztor

Modification.

00:16:32:02 - 00:16:37:17

Janos Pasztor

Of this process. The big difference is that it is not intentional.

00:16:37:17 - 00:16:46:00

Janos Pasztor

Deck the definition of the original term geoengineering was not just large scale, interaction with the human and with the climate.

00:16:46:00 - 00:16:48:00

Janos Pasztor

System, but intentional.

00:16:48:02 - 00:16:48:21

Janos Pasztor

Large scale.

00:16:48:21 - 00:16:54:21

Christian Soschner

The question for me then is, do we really have the systems today to put it into practice?

00:16:54:21 - 00:16:59:01

Christian Soschner

how how do we what are the thought processes behind putting it into practice?

00:16:59:01 - 00:16:59:07

Janos Pasztor

part.

00:16:59:07 - 00:17:00:08

Janos Pasztor

Of the problem is that.

00:17:00:08 - 00:17:02:09

Janos Pasztor

Societies haven't started.

00:17:02:11 - 00:17:04:02

Janos Pasztor

The thought process.

00:17:04:04 - 00:17:05:06

Janos Pasztor

Of wanting to put.

00:17:05:06 - 00:17:06:10

Janos Pasztor

This into practice.

00:17:06:10 - 00:17:11:02

Janos Pasztor

And, that's, that's the so, you know, the to develop a technology,

00:17:11:02 - 00:17:13:06

Janos Pasztor

it's easy. I mean, we, you.

00:17:13:06 - 00:17:14:08

Janos Pasztor

Know, I mean, I.

00:17:14:09 - 00:17:15:21

Janos Pasztor

Don't want to make it too.

00:17:15:21 - 00:17:17:06

Janos Pasztor

Easy. It's not that easy.

00:17:17:06 - 00:17:19:08

Janos Pasztor

Okay. But but it's not an.

00:17:19:08 - 00:17:21:04

Janos Pasztor

Insurmountable problem.

00:17:21:06 - 00:17:22:14

Janos Pasztor

To modify.

00:17:22:14 - 00:17:26:15

Janos Pasztor

An aircraft and build many of such aircraft to.

00:17:26:15 - 00:17:28:07

Janos Pasztor

Spray different.

00:17:28:07 - 00:17:41:19

Janos Pasztor

Kinds of aerosols into the stratosphere on an ongoing basis, and set up a monitoring system to make sure that you don't do too much, you don't do too little, and you keep the temperate, the average global temperature, in check.

00:17:41:21 - 00:17:42:16

Janos Pasztor

It's not that.

00:17:42:16 - 00:17:44:20

Janos Pasztor

Complicated. What is complicated is.

00:17:44:20 - 00:17:48:13

Janos Pasztor

To, first of all, accept or not

00:17:48:13 - 00:17:53:21

Janos Pasztor

the fact that you want to kill the planet. And that requires.

00:17:53:21 - 00:17:54:17

Janos Pasztor

A societal.

00:17:54:17 - 00:17:55:02

Janos Pasztor

Discussion.

00:17:55:02 - 00:18:00:20

Janos Pasztor

Now, you can have a private company do something that maybe, kickstarts.

00:18:00:20 - 00:18:04:05

Janos Pasztor

Such discussion because something is happening out there.

00:18:04:07 - 00:18:11:19

Janos Pasztor

But a private company cannot solve this problem. It can only be solved by societies, through some kind of.

00:18:11:19 - 00:18:12:23

Janos Pasztor

Societal action.

00:18:12:23 - 00:18:18:01

Janos Pasztor

And indeed, eventually some kind of government action, and in different ways in.

00:18:18:01 - 00:18:18:13

Janos Pasztor

Different

00:18:18:13 - 00:18:29:19

Christian Soschner

when they think about the technology that you presented. Now with, stratospheric aerosol injection, I think entrepreneurs can do it without government support.

00:18:29:19 - 00:18:50:19

Janos Pasztor

what I wanted to say is that, yes, they can develop the technology, of course, but, what they cannot do is if even the space-x, you know, or for that matter, the iPhone. These were fantastic, but they were based on.

00:18:51:00 - 00:18:51:22

Janos Pasztor

Developments.

00:18:51:22 - 00:19:02:04

Janos Pasztor

Of basic science and basic, understanding of these things that were financed by governments. And so, the role of government is.

00:19:02:04 - 00:19:03:09

Janos Pasztor

Always there, and it's.

00:19:03:09 - 00:19:09:22

Janos Pasztor

Always very important not necessarily to do things, but to create the conditions where these.

00:19:09:22 - 00:19:10:08

Janos Pasztor

Things can.

00:19:10:08 - 00:19:16:09

Janos Pasztor

Be done. It doesn't mean that governments cannot do things well. I mean, the, the TGV.

00:19:16:09 - 00:19:16:18

Janos Pasztor

In.

00:19:16:19 - 00:19:19:23

Janos Pasztor

France, you know, it happened.

00:19:19:23 - 00:19:20:09

Janos Pasztor

Because.

00:19:20:09 - 00:19:23:11

Janos Pasztor

The governments wanted to make that happen. And

00:19:23:13 - 00:19:25:24

Janos Pasztor

The Shinkansen in Japan.

00:19:26:01 - 00:19:34:19

Janos Pasztor

Is also, government involvement in the same in China. So these things are important. But it's true that focusing on specific issues, the.

00:19:34:19 - 00:19:38:21

Janos Pasztor

Private sector can do well now in terms of solar radiation modification.

00:19:39:02 - 00:19:50:05

Janos Pasztor

As I tried to say earlier, the technology is not the issue. It's actually very cheap to cheap. In fact, it's part of the problem that it would be too cheap to do.

00:19:50:05 - 00:19:51:15

Janos Pasztor

There are different.

00:19:51:15 - 00:19:52:07

Janos Pasztor

Analysis.

00:19:52:07 - 00:19:55:12

Janos Pasztor

But, it seems that, you can do.

00:19:55:13 - 00:19:56:15

Janos Pasztor

A global.

00:19:56:15 - 00:19:57:14

Janos Pasztor

Stratospheric.

00:19:57:14 - 00:20:00:00

Janos Pasztor

Aerosol injection program.

00:20:00:02 - 00:20:00:24

Janos Pasztor

Of the order.

00:20:00:24 - 00:20:04:03

Janos Pasztor

Of removing, you know, reducing the global temperature by a.

00:20:04:03 - 00:20:07:23

Janos Pasztor

Degree or something of the order of the direct.

00:20:07:23 - 00:20:10:22

Janos Pasztor

Cost of about $20 billion annually, you.

00:20:10:22 - 00:20:17:05

Janos Pasztor

Know, 20 billions annually. It's very cheap. And in terms of global things, you know, it's peanuts.

00:20:17:05 - 00:20:19:22

Janos Pasztor

And so, in fact, many say that one.

00:20:19:22 - 00:20:22:04

Janos Pasztor

Of the problems of, stratosphere gave us an.

00:20:22:04 - 00:20:25:10

Janos Pasztor

Injection is that it is so cheap that.

00:20:25:10 - 00:20:26:09

Janos Pasztor

Governments might.

00:20:26:09 - 00:20:26:20

Janos Pasztor

Be too.

00:20:26:20 - 00:20:28:10

Janos Pasztor

Tempted to do it.

00:20:28:10 - 00:20:31:02

Janos Pasztor

Without thinking through all the risks.

00:20:31:02 - 00:20:33:09

Janos Pasztor

Benefits, and governance

00:20:33:09 - 00:20:33:22

Janos Pasztor

Imagine a.

00:20:33:22 - 00:20:34:13

Janos Pasztor

Scenario.

00:20:34:13 - 00:20:37:09

Janos Pasztor

Where one country decides to.

00:20:37:09 - 00:20:40:17

Janos Pasztor

Unilaterally start stratospheric aerosol injection.

00:20:40:21 - 00:20:49:01

Janos Pasztor

And another country, let's say equally large, doesn't want that. Okay, so then you could do counter.

00:20:49:03 - 00:20:50:19

Janos Pasztor

Geoengineering as it's called.

00:20:50:19 - 00:20:58:03

Janos Pasztor

You can spray materials into the stratosphere that do the opposite. Is this the kind of world we want to to get into?

00:20:58:03 - 00:21:06:15

Christian Soschner

with our technology and with the intergovernmental relations today, do you see the possibility that we go into a bright future as humanity?

00:21:07:06 - 00:21:11:23

Janos Pasztor

I absolutely think that is possible. Again, it's the same

00:21:11:23 - 00:21:19:10

Janos Pasztor

as I said before, I wouldn't be here talking about these issues if I didn't think this was possible. Then I would just give up right now.

00:21:19:12 - 00:21:24:23

Janos Pasztor

But I am convinced that it's possible. It's it's difficult. It's not easy.

00:21:24:23 - 00:21:35:07

Janos Pasztor

But I, I think it's technologically, it's possible. Scientifically it's possible politically it's more difficult, but it is still possible. So let's make sure we.

00:21:35:07 - 00:21:38:04

Janos Pasztor

Find ways to get the job done.

00:21:38:06 - 00:21:45:02

Janos Pasztor

And, there is no reason why. I mean, I don't think we'll ever, achieve.

00:21:45:02 - 00:21:52:18

Janos Pasztor

A kind of perfect society where there's never there's no problems and there are no issues and everything.

00:21:52:20 - 00:21:55:07

Janos Pasztor

Well, it would be boring, but, you know, frankly, I.

00:21:55:07 - 00:21:55:22

Janos Pasztor

Would prefer.

00:21:55:22 - 00:21:57:11

Janos Pasztor

The boring one than.

00:21:57:13 - 00:21:58:21

Janos Pasztor

Getting cooked or something.

00:21:58:21 - 00:22:09:09

Janos Pasztor

But, but, but but I think it's possible. And I think it is possible to have a future where humanity lives within.

00:22:09:11 - 00:22:15:10

Janos Pasztor

The boundaries of the Earth system that are real.

00:22:15:12 - 00:22:23:07

Janos Pasztor

And within that, to be able to provide, for the needs of society.

00:22:23:07 - 00:22:31:22

Janos Pasztor

I was careful not to use the word basic needs, because that gets into definitional problems, but needs, okay, of, of.

00:22:31:22 - 00:22:40:16

Janos Pasztor

Society and, we we just have to find a way to increase the transition. We are actually.

00:22:40:16 - 00:22:44:07

Janos Pasztor

Going in the right direction, broadly speaking.

00:22:44:09 - 00:22:47:03

Janos Pasztor

But not fast enough. And that's where the problem.

00:22:47:03 - 00:22:47:12

Janos Pasztor

Is that.

00:22:47:12 - 00:22:55:00

Janos Pasztor

It's the transition is taking too long. And even if I look at the incredible changing, let's say, the photovoltaics.

00:22:55:00 - 00:22:56:17

Janos Pasztor

Which we discussed earlier.

00:22:56:19 - 00:22:57:14

Janos Pasztor

What has happened.

00:22:57:14 - 00:22:59:07

Janos Pasztor

In the last 20, 30 years on.

00:22:59:07 - 00:23:00:21

Janos Pasztor

Photovoltaics is absolutely.

00:23:00:21 - 00:23:02:17

Janos Pasztor

Remarkable.

00:23:02:19 - 00:23:12:14

Janos Pasztor

But even that is not fast enough. And that's just a small part, small slice of the pie. We need this a much bigger.

00:23:12:16 - 00:23:15:10

Janos Pasztor

Much bigger change. And it requires.

00:23:15:12 - 00:23:18:06

Janos Pasztor

Technological solutions where the private.

00:23:18:06 - 00:23:20:07

Janos Pasztor

Sector can have a very serious.

00:23:20:07 - 00:23:26:10

Janos Pasztor

Impact. But it requires, a societal change. And some of that societal.

00:23:26:10 - 00:23:29:02

Janos Pasztor

Change can be triggered by technology.

00:23:29:04 - 00:23:35:10

Janos Pasztor

And some of it requires other things. And we need to work on all those things. But I think it's possible.